Fan Ownership

[jacknomind]

All the rumors and counter-rumors flying around about a buyout by another publisher have me thinking.  It's actually possible that someone could, conceivably, buy out the IP and engine to the game simply to bury them, or to have them as rainy-day fallbacks.  It's quite possible that NCSoft will sit on the IP for years, announcing COH2 (with an entirely new studio) when they feel like it will have a greater market potential.

I don't want any of those things to happen.  What I do want to happen, in fact, is for Titan Network or Paragon Studios/2 to own the IP... or best yet, an incorporated board of fans and developers to hold it.  All the extremely important technical questions are secondary to that; whether we obtain the CoH engine, lease it, create a new one or somehow induce others to do so... there isn't a City of Heroes without Paragon City.  It's a symbol of our collective identity in this matter.

(I'm not saying that if this proves to be impossible, the community might as well not exist.  If we have to fall back on the Plan C (or D, or whatever) of 'Kickstarting an entirely new studio and superhero-themed game with CoH-like elements,' I'll push as hard for that if I can.  But Paragon City, Rikti, the Freedom Phalanx -- these are our first home and right now our only one.)

I feel like the IP also gives us something to attract investors or publishers with -- and owning it gives us a stronger position, since even if funds fall through, the publisher withdraws support, etc; we will be much more able to decide our own timeline for another transition, if that's necessary.  In other words, we'll never have to be put back into quite this same position of absolute powerlessness again.

And just as importantly right now, I feel like this gives us a much more precise focus on what we need to be doing.  When we reach out to celebrities, for instance, we know exactly what to ask them -- publicity for our purchase campaign and fundraisers.  We aren't going to be posting a wide haze of possibilities; everything can be focused around that one specific initial goal, and all the others fall into line behind it.

[Sleepykitty]

o.o ask and ye shall receive.. hopefully

[Empyrean]

This is a hell of a thing, to pick a focus.  Is it better to pursue many possible goals, or to pursue one goal in many ways?  I don't expect NCsoft to play ball, they want to burn the game down so it's never competition and they don't give a rat's ass about us.  If we could court their "ego" and schmooze them till they like us again, that would work, but I'm not sure of the chances of that.  What I am sure is that we won't be able to bully them into it and, if we did, they'd keep us "begrudgingly" which would suck for us.  Held by a company who hates us, that'd end up a nightmare.  And, since they don't want CoX to EVER be competition, I don't see us bullying them into releasing anything--it'd be stupid for them business-wise.

So, I hate to say it, but courting them or hacking seem to me to be our only two options.  I would love to be wrong.  I would love for a great company to buy CoH out and re-hire the team, or for us to get the IP and engine and make our own company, but I just can't be too hopeful about either of those--not realistically.

If someone knows better and I'm wrong, PLEASE say so because I hope to hell I am.

PS- This was NOT meant to be discouraging.  This game means a lot to me, I grew up reading comic books--hell, Spider-Man raised me--and my son grew up playing City of Heroes and my fiancee and I duo for dates (sound lame, but we drink wine and make a thing of it).  Frankly, Champions and DCUO suck, so we HAVE to save this game.  But, we do need a focus for this enthusiasm, and soon, before it starts to fade.  And, human nature being what it is, it will fade.

[laufeyjarson]

[Scrier]

Let's also take into account here that there's a sort of precedent. When Cryptic needed to drop the title to work on Champions, they kept it going even though it would be a direct competitor. Sure, their publisher had a little more leverage than we do, but it's an important one to keep in mind. The game has been bought and sold before. Sure in that case it was developer to publisher, but Cryptic probably had a few opportunities to block the sale or make it really difficult. Consider as well that they were abandoning the IP to create not only an MMO, but a similar themed MMO.

Surely if Cryptic could part with it, we have a chance at convincing NCSoft.

[Empyrean]

Laufley, I think you read my post too fast!  For one thing, my login is Empyrean, not Everyman .   But I wasn't "showing up with 'it'll never work'"--though I'm glad that you chewed me out if you thought that's what I was saying, because I would have deserved it .  I was expressing concern that in "hedging our bets" we may be falling prey to lack of focus.

The point of my post was that often focus has the best effect, and then to give my personal take on what is less probable and more probable to work so as to focus on the most probable thing.  I was saying that, to me, it seems that schmoozing our way into NCsoft's good graces or just setting up a private server, one way or another, seem the most likely to succeed verses other options since NCsoft seems to want to intentionally kill the game.

Actually, one of the two paths that I said that I felt best about, schmoozing, is trying to get them to come around even if they say "Go away, kid, you bother me."  And I am concerned about time frame, because human nature is what it is, and generally people have a short attention span.  Momentum can dissipate quickly.

As I said, if someone knows of a strategic reason that it's better NOT to pick a focus in this case, or that the foci that I put forth are not the best ones, I would love to hear why, because this is just my one view--how it seems to me-- put out there just in case it helps.  I don't care if I'm right, I care if Paragon City survives!

And I hope Scrier is right, but NCsoft's reputation worries me on that one.

[jacknomind]

And, since they don't want CoX to EVER be competition, I don't see us bullying them into releasing anything--it'd be stupid for them business-wise.

I honestly don't think they'd see us as competition if we did acquire the IP.  But this isn't about bullying them; it's about making as reasonable an offer as we can, backed with a strong human interest angle.  If they sell to us and we allow all the fans shares of our interest in the property, the whole "boycott NCSoft" angle will topple /and/ they'll make some money off the sale.

We're gonna be limited in how much we can raise, of course.  I think the best option is going to be something like a six-month timeline to raise the funds *after* we negotiate a purchase price.  Most people are only going to be able to kick their $15/mo or so at us ($90/6mos), and even that's going to wane for some people who get exhausted or simply bored.

To raise one million in that timeframe, we'd need 11k people offering us their subs.  Luckily I don't think we will; I think we can frame it as something more like $250 from 4000 people.  It's do-able (I think quite a few will be able to make a commitment of twice that over 6mos, and we'll have some outliers with even larger donations, reducing the total number of folks we need).  Every million more than that doubles the number of people we need to make that kind of commitment.  My crazy irrational hope is that we can negotiate a purchase with a mere million, but... we might need to raise more.  Maybe a lot more.

So, I hate to say it, but courting them or hacking seem to me to be our only two options.  I would love to be wrong.  I would love for a great company to buy CoH out and re-hire the team, or for us to get the IP and engine and make our own company, but I just can't be too hopeful about either of those--not realistically.

If there are some fringe community elements working on illegally obtaining the software and potentially creating unauthorized hosts, there's nothing we can do about it; our goal is to create a smooth, legal, friendly to NCSoft transition of the property as much as possible.  I know that Codeslinger et al have joked about this sort of thing (we're all a little irrational with grief right now), but any projects they're undertaking are surely for their own edification and not in any way a violation of the terms of service we're still probably bound by.

[Empyrean]

Yeh, I was too free and lose with the "h-word" word.  I know hacking is not a good or viable option in any way, or anything we'd participate in.  A little frustration was talking there.

[emu265]

I agree that a uniform goal would be helpful.  But we need to be open to possibilities, or risk getting a game over without considering every avenue we can take.  I'm not referring to hacking, but to every other one of the possibilities Tony outlined in his thread

[jacknomind]

Well, yeah, I'm not saying we should definitely close any doors right now.  But I think focusing our social media and fundraising efforts on acquiring the IP, right from the get-go, will bear the most fruit.  And I want to move on this before the end of the week.  We have a hot iron; let's not waste it.

[Mantic]

We're gonna be limited in how much we can raise, of course.  I think the best option is going to be something like a six-month timeline to raise the funds *after* we negotiate a purchase price.  Most people are only going to be able to kick their $15/mo or so at us ($90/6mos), and even that's going to wane for some people who get exhausted or simply bored.

To raise one million in that timeframe, we'd need 11k people offering us their subs.  Luckily I don't think we will; I think we can frame it as something more like $250 from 4000 people...

I presume you are talking about Kickstarter. If so, you might want to check out curmudgeonly Chris Crawford's experience with a failed kickstarter. He is convinced he made a mistake viewing Kickstarter as a kind of charity rather than a kind of commerce.

First, even though I'm pretty desperate, I would not be entirely comfortable dealing with Titan Network fans and not key Paragon Studios developers in this way -- I like you guys and what you do, but even with full source to all components things would look very different under an entirely new team. A team that has not worked on a MMO in this capacity before, no less.

But, assuming you've got Matt Miller and some others aboard for this and look to kickstarter, I believe it is necessary to think in terms of selling things. Not things that would cut into the game's profit-potential (lifetime subscriptions), but virtual items and "favors" that have a minimal cost to produce or duplicate. Badges for all entry-level ($20+ USD) contributions, fi. Simple exclusives for slightly higher. Up to the enshrinement of player characters in the game world at a very high level. Although this plays less to our desperation to merely see the game continue, it solidifies the idea of a future in the game, and would likely elicit more from the same individuals, if only because we can rationalize getting something, even a virtual something that is not overly significant, for the money. Even outright P2W stuff might be justified in this context.

[jacknomind]

I presume you are talking about Kickstarter.

Kickstarter has some great name recognition right now, but I'm not sure it works for what we want to do.  Indiegogo has been floated; there may be other options.

First, even though I'm pretty desperate, I would not be entirely comfortable dealing with Titan Network fans and not key Paragon Studios developers in this way -- I like you guys and what you do, but even with full source to all components things would look very different under an entirely new team. A team that has not worked on a MMO in this capacity before, no less.

All of my what is now 19 posts on the Titan Network have been about the Paragon City Resurgence Project (hey, that's kind of a catchy name).  Titan's just a brand -- what I want is for the fans to own the intellectual properties of City of Heroes, and Titan's a convenient and well-known umbrella to put over that.

That isn't, by the way, the same as saying I want Titan Network to take over development of CoH.  In my ideal world, we'd get the IP and then could attract an investor and create a new studio with as many former CoH developers as possible.  We wouldn't own that, entirely, but losing our investor wouldn't be the end of the world the same way NCSoft's shutdown decision is now.

But, assuming you've got Matt Miller and some others aboard for this and look to kickstarter, I believe it is necessary to think in terms of selling things. Not things that would cut into the game's profit-potential (lifetime subscriptions), but virtual items and "favors" that have a minimal cost to produce or duplicate.

This is for the IP, not the game proper (which is why I don't think kickstarter will work for us).  If we get to the point of running another funding campaign for a new studio, yeah, Kickstarter's a great solution and yes we almost certainly would include perks for donation, for which an in-game badge is a great idea.  Someone else suggested in-game statues, and there's always "stuff signed by the devs," etc.

Even outright P2W stuff might be justified in this context.

No*.  We can't sell the game to buy the game.  That is, selling players significant advantages creates a sort of oligarchy that diminishes the value of the actual gameplay; both for them, because rather than challenge their only sort of pleasure is going to be showing off, and for other players who feel justly marginalized by this sort of behavior.  I'm bringing this up so specifically here because I want to make my stance on anything like this very clear.

*although i'd capitulate for a truly exceptional case, like a single-source donation of a million dollars.  but i see no point really in even putting that on the list for a kickstarter.  it's just tacky.

[Back Blast]

Well P2W can be somewhat in the eye of the beholder. The vet rewards like the Blackwand, buff pets, etc. could be viewed as such from a certain angle. For that matter, the boxed Going Rogue included a serial code for a set of special starter enhancements. (Or maybe that was a Gamestop exclusive, I forget. But it still happened, I got one.) With that, all starting toons get a set of 5 (IIRC) special Acc/Dam enhancements. Both parts are roughly DO level percentages and they all have a different proc effect. They're not game-breaking but certainly help early on. So given the prior history, offering something along those lines as perks wouldn't be too out of line I'd think. There were also the special costume bits that came with a few of the prior sets as well and the collectors CoV set had Heroclix figs in it. Plus the special mousepad for Going Rogue too. The physical goodies might not be doable but virtual stuff along the lines of what has gone before should certainly be doable if handled right.

[Paula]

My only hesitation on anybody jumping head-first into kicking up fundraising is knowing what options are on the table.  I don't want to see anything scuttle the talks Paragon management is engaged in, and I don't want enthusiastic efforts to unwittingly kick over any buckets of opportunities for fan-based rescue-missions should those somehow fall though...

That said...

No*.  We can't sell the game to buy the game.  That is, selling players significant advantages creates a sort of oligarchy that diminishes the value of the actual gameplay; both for them, because rather than challenge their only sort of pleasure is going to be showing off, and for other players who feel justly marginalized by this sort of behavior.  I'm bringing this up so specifically here because I want to make my stance on anything like this very clear.

*although i'd capitulate for a truly exceptional case, like a single-source donation of a million dollars.  but i see no point really in even putting that on the list for a kickstarter.  it's just tacky.

I personally am in this same camp, and most in my small circle feel this same way -- that's one of the many reasons City of Heroes is the only game that we've consistently stayed together to play together.  There's been buyable stuff that makes the game "easier/smoother", like the veteran rewards and the travel powers, but nothing that seriously changed the playing field in my opinion.  It's all part of Paragon Studios' unique blend of truly welcoming players as valuable parts of the community, something they've been getting better and better at each year while other games... don't tend to get better and better each year.  I made a brand new free account a while back to check out the playability and fun-factor with absolutely none of what I've accumulated all these years, and found it to be a surprisingly good experience!

Anyway, that's got to continue, if the spirit of Paragon City is really going to survive.  If we do find ourselves in a situation where it's going to take fan-based action to save the game though, I think there can be some creative but fair "reward plans" to thank folks (including ourselves!) for the levels we're able to contribute, without making those who don't have the ability to contribute as much feel as though their participation is lessened... if I'm saying that right.  In my mind, this is a lot like trying to save the Family Reunion.  And since we've all dealt with family, we know how much forethought and planning it takes to maneuver intra-family relationships...

[Ampithere]

This is all sort of Plan B in my eyes. Plan A is make media noise and pray it helps the developers in their negotiations. But I agree that fan ownership is most likely a better route than another large scale publisher buying the property.

I do worry that NCSoft would be unwilling to sell though, or demand a higher than fair price. If all we are getting is the IP I feel that $1 million ought to be enough. The whole game sold to them for $10 million when they bought it. That included a ton of content, a functional game, an engine they could use for a later project, and probably a lot of other stuff with it. All we are asking for is a piece of paper that says "You may produce other media using the City of Heroes intellectual property." And I think it's important that we get the full IP or that a license we get for it allows us to use it on multiple projects, in different forms of media. Why? Precisely because we need to be selling something other than a hopeful future to people that give money. Virtual items are great, but how about comics? You donate $60, you get 12 issues. Something like that. Probably virtual as well for cost cutting reasons, but they could produced by hand and scanned for distribution.

[Kurrent]

Count me in for contributing in whatever way I can to save this game and help this community.  I don't have oodles of media contacts or any star power, but I've already been stirring up as much as I can locally (in Tennessee) to raise knowledge of what's going on and this community's desire to save our second home. 

I also do agree that pay-to-win items really wouldn't be appropriate as rewards for something like a Kickstarter project or sponsorship perks.  Honestly, we've never really had those and never really needed them.  What would be great incentives would be costume pieces, auras, travel auras, weapon models, maybe even different color options or effects.  You make a Sybil costume set a reward for $50 or $100 investment, and you'll see plenty of people paying it.  Animations are super time-intensive and probably wouldn't be very cost-effective, but there are plenty of other possibilities.  Badges for sponsorship.  Gold titles.  Chest detail logos.  There's lots of room for incentives without resorting to P2W items.

[frazier]

Count me in for contributing in whatever way I can to save this game and help this community.  I don't have oodles of media contacts or any star power, but I've already been stirring up as much as I can locally (in Tennessee) to raise knowledge of what's going on and this community's desire to save our second home. 

I also do agree that pay-to-win items really wouldn't be appropriate as rewards for something like a Kickstarter project or sponsorship perks.  Honestly, we've never really had those and never really needed them.  What would be great incentives would be costume pieces, auras, travel auras, weapon models, maybe even different color options or effects.  You make a Sybil costume set a reward for $50 or $100 investment, and you'll see plenty of people paying it.  Animations are super time-intensive and probably wouldn't be very cost-effective, but there are plenty of other possibilities.  Badges for sponsorship.  Gold titles.  Chest detail logos.  There's lots of room for incentives without resorting to P2W items.

I agree. I'm another Liberty'er that will do all I can to support the cause.

[Olantern]

For some discussion of how to accomplish something like this, as well as the challenges involved, check out the Legal Considerations thread.

[Riff]

Not read every post in this thread - but here's a couple of thoughts

I can't ever see NCSoft selling the IP to CoH - ever. It has value. They may not want to be running the game right now but it wouldn't be a sensible move  - and imagine how the board would look if somebody came along and bought the IP outright, made CoH the most profitable game on the planet and NCSoft never saw another penny!

Besides, once another Superhero MMO goes under - as it might in the future - there may be room in the marketplace for a new Superhero MMO - and suddenly CoH2 is born. So letting go the IP doesn't work on that level either.

But - they may consider licensing it. They may let an Indy studio use the IP for an extended period and take a cut of the revenue from that in perpetuity without having to lift a finger. Money for old rope. They might even be willing to set up a small studio to help facilitate that - with say a "gift" to run the studio for six months, a licence for the IP of three years (plus option to renew) in return for a cut of the revenue every month and say "this is it. Make it work or it goes."

If the new Indy studio makes a go of it, they win, if it doesn't then they can look the fans in the eye and say "We gave you a chance - now it's done" and there's not much that the fans could do about that in reasonableness. If the Indy studio does make it a success, then there's a better than reasonable likelihood that NCSoft would renew the IP after the three year term. (pre-supposing somebody else doesn't come in and go "let's lease that IP for billions for 10 years..." but that's highly unlikely.)

The bottom line is if NCSoft shareholders see a way of making money out of this, we can make it happen.