Author Topic: Alpha Slot Abilities ...  (Read 3458 times)

Aggelakis

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Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« on: January 03, 2011, 07:19:34 PM »
... are not "powers".

They're not generic "upgrades".

They are enhancements - universal enhancements - "global enhancements" from that survey years ago. And even on the Alpha Slot Abilities page, Zombie Man specifically calls them Universal Enhancements (see header text).

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Alpha
Should read:
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# [[Alpha Slot Abilities]], universal enhancements that can be slotted into the [[Alpha Slot]]

Caveat: other Incarnate Slots may, indeed, include "powers". However, the Alpha Slot does not. Characters slot special enhancements in there.

Proposing a consensus to stop the edit war.
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Sekoia

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 07:46:32 PM »
Alpha slot boosts show up in the Powers window, in the third column under "Alpha". So I'm gonna have to say that they're most definitely powers, just like the boosts we can get from Accolades like the Atlas Medallion.

eabrace

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 11:24:53 PM »
Hmm.  While it's true that the Alpha Slot ability you currently have selected does show up with a power icon up in your status bar and everything, calling it a power is misleading.  If the Alpha Slot were a power, then the effects from the Alpha Slot would function as global set bonuses - which they do not.  If I slot the Spiritual Boost, it provides an enhancement to all powers that can be slotted for recharge reduction.  This is different than providing a recharge reduction effect to all powers.

Let's take Vengeance or Sands of Mu as an example.  A global recharge bonus would affect the recharge rate of these powers, making them cycle faster.  Since neither power is capable of accepting recharge reduction enhancements, anything providing an enhancement to the recharge rate of all powers that can accept recharge reduction enhancements will have no effect on these two powers.  While a power like Hasten or Geas of the Kind Ones should boost the recharge rate of these powers, the enhancement effect of the Alpha Slot Spiritual Boost should have no effect whatsoever on them.
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Zombie Man

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 11:47:21 PM »
Alpha slot boosts show up in the Powers window, in the third column under "Alpha". So I'm gonna have to say that they're most definitely powers, just like the boosts we can get from Accolades like the Atlas Medallion.

Exactly.

Every effect in the game is a power and falls under the purview of the Powers Team of developers. How would a pet, for example, be called a 'power'?

'Power' is one of the most generic words for a mechanical effect we have.

GuyPerfect

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 12:57:01 AM »
Proposing a consensus to stop the edit war.

The solution: Don't call them powers, and don't call them Enhancements either.


What's a power?

Internally, everything that can alter combat attributes has a power at its source. This includes the obvious things like attacks and heals, as well as some more obscure things like Set Bonuses and Enhancements. Indeed, Enhancements are powers that are applied to other powers rather than the entity that uses them.

Where do we draw the line as to what's a "power" and what's some other, more specific thing? I'd say you could look in your status window or Powers menu. If there's an icon there, it's a power; if there's not an icon there, it's something else. This would make Alpha Incarnate abilities powers.


What's an Enhancement?

Enhancements are a subset of powers that have effects just like other powers, except they're applied to the attributes of other individual powers rather than supplying a global buff to the entity that slotted it. This has confusing significance in the case of pet summons, where the summon power might have Accuracy or Damage boosts associated with it, which in turn become global buffs for the summoned entities...

Either way, an Enhancement is not a power that can be cast or that is persistently applied (auto power). It is a "boost," for other powers and they're referred to that way internally. This would make Alpha Incarnate abilities Enhancements.


Something better?

What we've ended up with is something that qualifies as both a power and an Enhancement, and apparently it's a source for disagreement. "It's a power because ABC." "No, it's an Enhancement because XYZ." Both are correct, but which term do we use?

In this case, "Alpha Incarnate abilities" is about as good as it gets. In regards to the disambiguation page:

Quote
Alpha Slot Abilities, which are upgrades that can be slotted into the Alpha Slot to boost performance of a character's Power Sets

...would probably be better off as:

Quote
Alpha Incarnate Abilities, which can be slotted into the Alpha Slot to boost performance of a character's Power Sets

Sekoia

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 01:20:14 AM »
While it's true that the Alpha Slot ability you currently have selected does show up with a power icon up in your status bar and everything, calling it a power is misleading.  If the Alpha Slot were a power, then the effects from the Alpha Slot would function as global set bonuses - which they do not.  If I slot the Spiritual Boost, it provides an enhancement to all powers that can be slotted for recharge reduction.  This is different than providing a recharge reduction effect to all powers.

Just because all past powers operated in a given way, doesn't mean future powers can haven't different mechanics.

What I think we're going to see is that when future incarnate slots start granting "powers", they'll show up exactly the same as the Alpha slot's does currently. The difference will be that the Alpha acts as an "auto" power, while those other slots will be movable to the tray for activation. In that way, they're a lot like Accolade powers.

So I think the things you put in Incarnate slots are exactly powers as we normally use the word. Some of them just happen to apply to powers in a way we're not used to.

As for enhancements... I would say an enhancement is anything you can slot in the "Manage Enhancements" window. Incarnate abilities don't use that interface, and thus, aren't really what we'd normally call enhancements.

eabrace

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 01:35:51 AM »
Just because all past powers operated in a given way, doesn't mean future powers can haven't different mechanics.

What I think we're going to see is that when future incarnate slots start granting "powers", they'll show up exactly the same as the Alpha slot's does currently. The difference will be that the Alpha acts as an "auto" power, while those other slots will be movable to the tray for activation. In that way, they're a lot like Accolade powers.

Maybe.  If the short little preview we get when running Ramiel's arc is any indication, they'll all be automagical rather than clicks, however.  We'll have to wait and see, I suppose.

Quote
As for enhancements... I would say an enhancement is anything you can slot in the "Manage Enhancements" window. Incarnate abilities don't use that interface, and thus, aren't really what we'd normally call enhancements.

To me, anything that shows up in the enhancement total of a power (i.e. on the "Manage Enhancements" window) would qualify as an enhancement.  And these numbers are added to the totals in those popups.

But, as Guy pointed out, technically Enhancements are powers as the game views them, so it's a bit of a moot point.
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Zombie Man

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 03:48:56 AM »
Don't forget that the 'benefits' that the Alpha 'ability' provides not only includes 'universal enhancements' but also 'level shift' and 'exemption from the -4 Level Incarnate TF debuff.'

And who knows what else having the Alpha Slot slotted will confer in the future.

Fleeting Whisper

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 10:29:25 PM »
Alpha slot boosts show up in the Powers window, in the third column under "Alpha". So I'm gonna have to say that they're most definitely powers, just like the boosts we can get from Accolades like the Atlas Medallion.
If you want to get into the implementation details, Single-Origin Enhancements are, in fact, also powers. So are TOs and IOs. So are procs and set bonuses.

Appearing in the information window or the buff bar is not a good demarcation between what is a power and what is not.

Fleeting Whisper

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 10:32:23 PM »
Maybe.  If the short little preview we get when running Ramiel's arc is any indication, they'll all be automagical rather than clicks, however.  We'll have to wait and see, I suppose.
The powers for the Judgment slot can be seen in-game (in the [Power Name] format), and are click powers. The final version is basically a nuke.

taosin

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 08:28:42 AM »
regarding powers...

this may be naive, but I would think that Powers and its associated pages is a good canonical starting point to determine what should be described as a power.

Sekoia

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2011, 09:15:27 PM »
From http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showpost.php?p=3439042&postcount=2 Black Scorpion says (emphasis mine):
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In addition to their tree-specific benefits, when you slot a Rare or Very Rare Alpha Slot power, a level shift will be applied to your character. Your level 50 character will fight with the same strength as if they were level 51; your actual level will not change, and the level shift only applies when you have a Rare or Very Rare power in the Alpha Slot and it is active.

So at least one dev has referred to them as powers.

GuyPerfect

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Re: Alpha Slot Abilities ...
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2011, 09:26:21 PM »
This is just a bit too nitpicky.