Author Topic: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)  (Read 6671 times)

Golden Girl

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The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« on: December 15, 2017, 05:41:38 PM »
This is quite a hard movie to describe - it's certainly the strangest SW movie so far - it avoids the excessive adherence to previous episodes that caused problems in TFA, but it also goes a bit too far in the other direction at times, and leaps right into dubious/semi-deranged fan-fiction territory.
It's entertaining, pretty well-acted and the dialogue is good for an SW movie - but it's also definitely not a movie that George Lucas would have made - at any point in his career.
Like TFA and Rogue One, it's slick and well produced, but it's also lacking some of the roughness and quirkiness of the first 6 episodes, which could be seen as both a good and a bad thing.
IT's also quite decisively moving SW into a new place, not just story wise, but also in style and feel, and it'll be interesting to see how they develop it in IX - and it'll also be interesting to see how the box office performs - it's naturally going to open to a vast amount, but without the special build-up to the start of a new trilogy that TFA had, along with the somewhat noticeable difference between TLJ and previous episodes, the number of repeat viewings could be down a bit.   


« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 05:50:19 PM by Golden Girl »
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mobbyg

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2017, 06:56:14 PM »
This is quite a hard movie to describe - it's certainly the strangest SW movie so far - it avoids the excessive adherence to previous episodes that caused problems in TFA, but it also goes a bit too far in the other direction at times, and leaps right into dubious/semi-deranged fan-fiction territory.
It's entertaining, pretty well-acted and the dialogue is good for an SW movie - but it's also definitely not a movie that George Lucas would have made - at any point in his career.

I saw it last night, and I agree! Lucas made those movies for kids, in the style of a Saturday movie serial that you could see in theaters up until the 1950's when he was a little kid. Now, we've got the fans making it who were kids when the originals came out, but now they are making them for the adult fans. More polished stories and more adult kind of themes. I read a review from vox.com that seemed more like a dissertation on the subtext of some of the reveals we get on Rey. A little to cerebral for Star Wars IMHO.

Like TFA and Rogue One, it's slick and well produced, but it's also lacking some of the roughness and quirkiness of the first 6 episodes, which could be seen as both a good and a bad thing.

Maybe I'm too nit picky, but it didn't seem like there were soft wipes like in all the other movies. Did I miss them? It was all fast cuts. I am planning on going back to see it again to get more details on it. Anyone else notice? I could also be a little too nerdy on this, I admit. To me, that roughness was what made the movies honestly. If I can't get newer movies with that kind of style in it, I think I am going to be disappointed. OK, now I know I am over top on this point.


It's also quite decisively moving SW into a new place, not just story wise, but also in style and feel, and it'll be interesting to see how they develop it in IX - and it'll also be interesting to see how the box office performs - it's naturally going to open to a vast amount, but without the special build-up to the start of a new trilogy that TFA had, along with the somewhat noticeable difference between TLJ and previous episodes, the number of repeat viewings could be down a bit.   

It's a double edged lightsaber with Disney buying Lucasfilm. We're going to get all kids of Star Wars stuff, but my concern it'll be over done and come to pa point that they'll just crank it out to make more and more money. Well, yeah, that is Disney's MO, as compared to Lucas who was very deliberate on what he did. I think that was a better formula as he was/is very detailed and had a hand in all aspects of it. Which means we got a more moderate amount of story as compared to a new movie every year that we're getting now. (OK, yeah, lightsabers don't have sides, but you get my analogy, right?  ;D) But I saw TFA a few times, and I've come to the opinion that JJ just wasn't the right fit for the style of a movies that Sar Wars is. A modern director for a story that has always been told in an older style, it just didn't work for me. Whenever you watch an interview that Lucas does, and they ask him about style or format or some other technical aspect of film making, he references the classic way of story telling. And that is kind of how he's done that is just about all his movies. It's even kind of bled over to Spielberg when he did Indiana Jones. Classic serial story movie style. OK, I'm old... I get it now...

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Kaos Arcanna

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2017, 02:44:44 AM »
On the whole I enjoyed it. There were twists that I did not expect.

One thing however ...

Spoiler for Hidden:
So Darth Vader is unrepentant evil for 20 years and displays NO compassion or humanity at all until the ending of the original trilogy, but Luke has no doubt he can turn back to the light even when Yoda and Obi-Wan believe otherwise. Ben/Kylo has been Darkside for far less time, and Luke's had no doubt that he's irredeemable-- even Leia agrees with him. What makes Vader a candidate for rehabilitation and not Ben?

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2017, 06:55:42 AM »
On the whole I enjoyed it. There were twists that I did not expect.

One thing however ...

Spoiler for Hidden:
So Darth Vader is unrepentant evil for 20 years and displays NO compassion or humanity at all until the ending of the original trilogy, but Luke has no doubt he can turn back to the light even when Yoda and Obi-Wan believe otherwise. Ben/Kylo has been Darkside for far less time, and Luke's had no doubt that he's irredeemable-- even Leia agrees with him. What makes Vader a candidate for rehabilitation and not Ben?

Spoiler for Hidden:
Probably because Vader was the one prophesized to bring balance to the Force

Dev7on

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2017, 07:31:32 PM »
Saw the movie yesterday and I think the movie had a slow start. It didn't pick up the pace until the 3rd act of the film. I did enjoyed the film but, I think they could've made the movie a little short. It was too long.
Spoiler for Hidden:
I don't understand why the movie keeps showing Finn and Rose on the this casino planet trying to find a code breaker who betrays them later on. Phasma is useless. I think that was unnecessary. I didn't understand the multiple Rey sequence. Kylo killed off Snoke just like that?! Really? HOW IN THE WORLD PRINCESS LEIA WAS ABLE TO FLY BACK INTO THE SHIP IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE??!!! I thought they was going to kill her off but, noooooooooooooooo.  :roll: So Luke dies and not Leia? How's that going to work out? I did like the connection between Kylo and Rey when they was talking to each other through the Force. That was interesting. Luke use the Force to project himself to stall Kylo so he can help the Rebels escape was badass.
I also have mix feelings about this movie.


MyriVerse

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2017, 02:38:49 PM »
On the whole I enjoyed it. There were twists that I did not expect.

One thing however ...

Spoiler for Hidden:
So Darth Vader is unrepentant evil for 20 years and displays NO compassion or humanity at all until the ending of the original trilogy, but Luke has no doubt he can turn back to the light even when Yoda and Obi-Wan believe otherwise. Ben/Kylo has been Darkside for far less time, and Luke's had no doubt that he's irredeemable-- even Leia agrees with him. What makes Vader a candidate for rehabilitation and not Ben?
Spoiler for Hidden:
There are worse things than Vader. Kylo is a complete unapologetic nihilist that wants to destroy everything, pretty much literally. Vader still cared about something, at least. So yeah... he's worse than Vader ever was.
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Magus Prime

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 08:17:42 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
But don't we see Kylo hesitate to kill his parents both times?  And it kind of looks like he cares for Rey.

MyriVerse

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 09:06:27 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
None of that was out of any sense of goodness.
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hurple

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 02:43:40 PM »
As I think more and more about this movie, it feels more and more like a 2 1/2 hour episode of Battlestar Galactica.  And not the awesome 2004 series, but the cheesy 70's craptacular show.  I mean they even did the Baltar killing the Cylon leader and taking his place thing!

I mean, alot happened in the movie that changes the story in major major ways... But, nothing really *happened* happened, it was all one side sitting around being worried and the other side sitting around gloating, with short bursts of major story-changing events.

However, having said that... I still loved 99.99% of the movie.  There's just one scene that I want to kill with fire.


Kaos Arcanna

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2017, 03:20:12 AM »
So one thing that I do have to say about the new Star Wars movies based on what's happened with the first two ...


Spoiler for Hidden:
There seems to be an ageist bias here. Each movie seems to have a main plot point of killing off a character from the older movies so the new kids can be the only ones left standing. Maybe they're doing that so they won't have to pay huge fees to the surviving actors, but I do find myslef agreeing with Mark Hamill in that I don't think Luke would just run off for six years while the Galaxy burned. (I also think he wouldn't have even considered killing Ben when he knew from personal experience that someone could come back from the Dark Side.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2017, 05:19:02 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
HOW IN THE WORLD PRINCESS LEIA WAS ABLE TO FLY BACK INTO THE SHIP IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE??!!!

That really didn't bother me. It's insinuated in the movies that Anakin was created out of the Force, and in the old canon (especially in the KOTOR era) the Force did some crazy stuff. That event in TLJ really wasn't all that crazy, to me.

Golden Girl

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2017, 05:26:49 PM »
That really didn't bother me. It's insinuated in the movies that Anakin was created out of the Force, and in the old canon (especially in the KOTOR era) the Force did some crazy stuff. That event in TLJ really wasn't all that crazy, to me.

One of the big problems with it is that it came out fo nowhere, which could be partly blamed on the general sloppiness of TFA when it came to filling in the 30 year gap since RotJ.
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Vee

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2017, 05:33:50 PM »
Just saw it. It's awful but at least entertainingly awful. 7 was just plain awful and L'Rouge was just boring. This was more hilariously awful ala ep 3. Every scene of this I was pretty much floored that it got approved at any level, much less at every level.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I did like Snoke's guards though.

Kept waiting on David Lynch to come in and yell something to Laura Dern about Agent Cooper, but decided the whole movie was too surreal for Lynch. BTW did Laura Dern seem completely out of left field to people who'd not read the crappy Leia novel?

saipaman

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2017, 06:23:45 PM »
I found it to be boring.

Hopefully there will be a fan edit that trims at least a half hour out of the film.


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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2017, 08:56:26 PM »
We just saw it, and I can understand why it's getting mixed reviews. I thought it was formulaic and tedious most of the time, with flat, uninteresting characters; the plot devices used weren't very believable, and the core story underneath it all was not very good.

I wish they'd just stopped making these after 1983.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2018, 04:21:03 AM »
I have no words on how disappointing this was. There were far to many bad choices they put in it. Such as Luke, no one can honestly say that was a good choice for him. He went to the Death Star to rescue his father. However, in this he senses the darkness in his nephew and he wants to kill him, seriously? Then the admiral not telling anyone the plan to use transports to get away, again bad choice. Then the whole mission with Finn and Rose, was not necessary.
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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2018, 08:53:07 PM »
It was by and large, terrible, especially after the promise of TFA.

The worst for me was Snoke.  We don't know where he came from, and now we likely never will.  They should have excised him from the first and second screenplay and made Ben dark purely from the troubled relationship with his father, and Luke's moment of doubt at the new temple.  A dark Jedi would have been so much more compelling than someone mostly corrupted by a plot device disguised as a character.

Or keep him in and flesh him out!  Tell us how Ben fell in with him.  Make his master's death meaningful!  What a waste of screentime for Serkis.

saipaman

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2018, 03:53:42 AM »
I suspect there is no master plan here other than to kill off all the old characters.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2018, 07:04:12 PM »
All this makes me wish Lucas did his original plan and did the prequels and sequel a lot sooner.

Since the Phantom Menace the Star Wars films just don't have the same magic for me as the three originals.

I always loved in the original that the Force was a magical thing that maybe anyone could tap into and use.

Then PM ruined that by making the Force bound to some mico organisms, so if you haven't got 'em in your system - "NO Force for You!"

So now instead of "May the Force be with You" it should be "May the Midichlorians be in You"


saipaman

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 01:44:32 AM »
All this makes me wish Lucas did his original plan and did the prequels and sequel a lot sooner.

Since the Phantom Menace the Star Wars films just don't have the same magic for me as the three originals.

I always loved in the original that the Force was a magical thing that maybe anyone could tap into and use.

Then PM ruined that by making the Force bound to some mico organisms, so if you haven't got 'em in your system - "NO Force for You!"

So now instead of "May the Force be with You" it should be "May the Midichlorians be in You"

They lost faith and had to die. 

Golden Girl

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 04:00:58 PM »
All this makes me wish Lucas did his original plan and did the prequels and sequel a lot sooner.

Since the Phantom Menace the Star Wars films just don't have the same magic for me as the three originals.

I always loved in the original that the Force was a magical thing that maybe anyone could tap into and use.

Then PM ruined that by making the Force bound to some mico organisms, so if you haven't got 'em in your system - "NO Force for You!"

So now instead of "May the Force be with You" it should be "May the Midichlorians be in You"

That's not really correct - midi-chlorians were in all living organisms, and life couldn't exist without them - so any living creature could access the Force.

As for the science vs magic angle of the Force, the prequels actually added way more mysticism to the Force than was present in the original trilogy.
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Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2018, 10:00:41 PM »
Finally just saw this.  It was... alright.  It feels very much like a bridge.  That salt planet was a lovely and well used set piece.  The worst part of the movie continues to be Kylo Ren.  He's like all the worst prequel Anakin bits channeled through a darkity dark teen romance garbage novel.
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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 02:36:11 AM »
   I hated TFA. It felt like it was Andy from Toy Story playing  with his toys at the beginning of Toy Story. A child's imagination  being made into a film. JJ  Abrams  only knows how to copy and  make things bigger. A bigger Enterprise and a  bigger  Death  Star. I could go on and on but it  wouldn't  matter seeing  how  the movies are  already made.
    I did enjoy some parts of  the  Finn  and  Rose storyline.
    Can anyone  tell me how the trio of  Finn, Poe  and Rey are supposed  to  be  friends  when Finn is the only  one  who interacts with both Poe and  Rey ? Poe and  Rey  have no real interaction  with  each  other.
   

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 11:41:19 AM »
I haven't seen that Poe and Rey are all that friendly.  Indeed, when they bumped into each other in TLJ he was like "hi, I'm Poe" and she was like "sure, okay, whatevs".  That's paraphrasing, of course, but I recall being amused that he kinda got the brush off.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2018, 05:02:51 AM »
I saw this movie when it first came out, but I really didn't feel like I had anything interesting to say about it.  But I was discussing the movie with a friend recently when my thoughts about it finally coalesced in my brain.

Overall, I did enjoy the movie in the theater a moderate amount, however, I was uncomfortable in the theater the entire time, and the reason was because I had to literally turn my brain off during the movie.  The movie is full of individual scenes that are fun to watch in thirty second increments, but are completely nonsensical when taken as a whole.

That made the movie far less enjoyable than it could have or should have been.  I don't entirely like The Last Jedi, but I've come to really hate Rian Johnson.

For me, the entire movie seemed to be Rian Johnson trying to prove that nothing tells him what to do, not the canon of the series he's making a movie in, not even the plot of the previous movie in the series, not logic or common sense, not any sense of plot or story, nothing.  And quite frankly I found it annoying whenever I allowed it to leak into my perceptions of the movie.

The opening of the movie sets the tone for the rest of the film.  Luke Skywalker's reaction to Rey handing him his old light saber is practically a middle finger to the audience.  That's Rian Johnson saying "I know you care about this, but I don't care about this, so screw this." 

Its hard to describe all the problems in the movie without spoilers.  Finn and Rose's mission to planet Vegas is completely ridiculous: it make the entire point of the resistance chase practically meaningless.  That awesome tactic Admiral Holdo pulls near the end?  That's awesome for the four seconds it takes to wonder why they didn't do that when they had more ships.  And when you think about what her plan actually was, if I was Poe I would have shot her in the head, because that plan could not possibly work if the First Order had one single person anywhere in their fleet with a brain.

It seemed like every single scene in TFA was a page torn from a giant set of a thousand different scripts for a thousand different movies, shuffled into random order.  The scenes do not make sense to exist in the same movie.  They might have worked in a different movie, but not in this one.  When Rose saves Finn near the end of the movie, I actually wished the entire rest of the resistance was killed right at that moment so she had to live with that eventuality, because she is dumber than spackle.  Maybe the love conquerors all theme could have worked in a different movie, but again, not in this one.

I cannot think of one thing that happens in this movie that isn't completely undercut or contradicted by another thing that happens in this movie.  The movie itself indicts the rest of the movie.  Leonard Shelby could enjoy this movie.  I could only enjoy it by forgetting that there was a rest of the movie, for every scene in the movie.

I don't think I've ever had a reaction like that to a movie, and I've watched thousands of movies.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2018, 05:06:54 AM »
   I hated TFA. It felt like it was Andy from Toy Story playing  with his toys at the beginning of Toy Story. A child's imagination  being made into a film. JJ  Abrams  only knows how to copy and  make things bigger. A bigger Enterprise and a  bigger  Death  Star. I could go on and on but it  wouldn't  matter seeing  how  the movies are  already made.
    I did enjoy some parts of  the  Finn  and  Rose storyline.
    Can anyone  tell me how the trio of  Finn, Poe  and Rey are supposed  to  be  friends  when Finn is the only  one  who interacts with both Poe and  Rey ? Poe and  Rey  have no real interaction  with  each  other.
   


The Force Awakens is not the greatest Star Wars movie, but I find myself hoping that he somehow fixes Star Wars by doing to Rian Johnson what Rian Johnson did to him: give TLJ the middle finger and ignore it completely when making the next film.  I would literally not feel bad if at the start of Episode Nine we discover that Episode Eight was a bedtime story told to a child by a resistance fighter with a head injury that messes with his memory.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2018, 09:24:59 AM »
Heard today that the Social Security Administration said the fastest growing name in the US is Kylo. What exactly would you be hoping for in naming your kid that? Might as well name the kid "Whiny Oedipus".

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 03:05:24 AM »
If you don't want a Star Trek Discovery spoiler... No comment.

If you don't care...

Spoiler for Hidden:
I imagine a much smaller contingent naming their kid Lorca after the last few episodes of Star Trek: Discovery for the same reason.
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Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 03:07:42 AM »
Heard today that the Social Security Administration said the fastest growing name in the US is Kylo. What exactly would you be hoping for in naming your kid that? Might as well name the kid "Whiny Oedipus".

I would never do that to a child, but I don't think Kylo is a bad character in the two "saga" movies.  I actually think he has the most potential.  Yes he was a bit emo in TFA, but he seems to have outgrown that in TLJ.  Kylo seems to actually have an arc.  It is a dark twisted arc, but you know how there's that trope about how you have to kill your parents to grow up, and then you become your parents?  That's usually metaphor, but Kylo literally kills his father to escape the large shadow that is cast over him.  A "good guy" Kylo would probably want to figuratively kill his super famous parents to escape their shadow as well.  Kylo is the dark side of that.  And in TLJ, he is no longer a whining emo kid.  He's looking to take the next step on his path from killing his parents to escape them to surpassing his grandfather who he once idolized.

In fact, the scene in the movie that I think turns Kylo into a real person is the scene in TLJ where Snoke taunts him with the image of his grandfather Darth Vader.  What Kylo does after that is I think a very real moment where he realizes that just like Han held him back, his overidolization of Vader also holds him back, and I think that's the moment when Kylo decides what his end game is going to be.  He decides he is going to destroy everything that can be turned against him, and build something entirely of his own.

In a sense, Kylo has flipped the hero's journey upside down and created its opposite: the villain's journey.  I'm not saying it is perfect story execution, but this is way better than how Anakin Skywalker was handled in the prequels. 

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2018, 06:15:37 AM »
I think you're giving Kylo too much credit.  I think he lashed out at Snoke like an over emotional teen, just as he did later when confronted by Luke.  He sidetracked an entire army like a whiny brat given too much power.  They spent all that time trying to build him up into Mr. Misunderstood, Darth Broody the romantic dark teen icon, and then tossed it out the window with tantrums.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2018, 09:36:27 AM »
I think you're giving Kylo too much credit.  I think he lashed out at Snoke like an over emotional teen, just as he did later when confronted by Luke.  He sidetracked an entire army like a whiny brat given too much power.  They spent all that time trying to build him up into Mr. Misunderstood, Darth Broody the romantic dark teen icon, and then tossed it out the window with tantrums.

That seems to be a direct contradiction.  They built up Kylo to be exactly what he was: someone Luke could goad like an inexperienced child.  But that's exactly what he ought to be at this point.  Arcs have to be continuous, or they are not arcs.  There has to be something in between here and there, and that's where Kylo is at the end of TLJ.

What would you expect Mr. Misunderstood Darth Broody to do in that situation?  Channel Patton?

And it seems clear from the way Kylo speaks to Rey that he did not lash out at Snoke impulsively.  He wasn't certain until the moment came, but its obvious he thought things through very carefully.  In fact, he had to be in complete control of his emotions at the end, or Snoke would have seen right through him.  Instead, he was able to confuse Snoke by focusing simultaneously on Rey and his own actions, and Snoke incorrectly added two and two and got five.

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 11:22:39 AM »
What would you expect Mr. Misunderstood Darth Broody to do in that situation?  Channel Patton?

If he had grown beyond the emo, as you say, I'd expect him to leave the military to do their thing while he confronted Luke in a less berserker rage kinda fashion.  You know - show that he's actually grown.  Without that growth, it's not an arc so much as a straight line.  With that growth, one might consider that he knew what game Snoke was playing and was using the situation and Rey to get to Snoke while potentially getting a powerful ally on the hook that he could manipulate to his own ends.  But it seems far more likely that Kylo was just inspired to action because he thought he had found someone who could understand him, and that Snoke missed it because he really wasn't all that powerful - just a puffed up redshirted Grima, to be disposed of unceremoniously. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2018, 03:52:06 PM »
Snoke WAS powerful and he played a long game. He corrupted Ben Solo from childhood, and he was so certain of his creation that he didn't for one moment consider that Kylo could possibly betray him.

He clearly overpowered Rey ... overrode her ability to use the Force and tore through her mind to find Luke ... something that Kylo couldn't do.

But he wasn't a god, and he DID underestimate Ben Solo.

The thing is, Kylo ISN'T a long term thinker. Or much of a thinker at all, honestly. He's been so powerful most of his life that he hasn't had to think strategically.  You don't learn to be subtle when you've never had to be.

He's a bit fit for the First Order. He doesn't relate well to people. He doesn't know how to properly use his forces. He's a good pilot and a powerful Force wielder, but I wouldn't trust him to lead a Boy Scout troop let alone an army.




CG

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2018, 02:58:36 PM »
I have had a realization about the Star Wars franchise and why it might be hitting some rocks with TLJ.

Fundamentally, Star Wars is a nostalgia property.  Even the original in 1977 was a nostalgia movie to pulp serials and 1940's movies.  It was about giving the audience what they have had before in creative ways.  The stories and tropes in the movies were always predictable.  What made them original is how they were put together, the effects and overall production values.  It's all about what was awesome in the past, whether it's old movies, old stories or history within the franchise.

In TLJ, Rian  Johnson has gone out of his way to destroy all of that.  Subvert expectations, cut off old plot threads as irrelevant, make big changes to old characters, etc.  You can argue about whether this is a good idea for the franchise or not, but he's not been following the pattern for the main Star Wars movies.  The number one thing for keeping people happy is to manage expectations.  If people are expecting movie #8 in the series to be the same style as the previous 7, you're going to be fighting up hill from the get-go.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2018, 10:28:56 PM »
If he had grown beyond the emo, as you say, I'd expect him to leave the military to do their thing while he confronted Luke in a less berserker rage kinda fashion.  You know - show that he's actually grown.  Without that growth, it's not an arc so much as a straight line.  With that growth, one might consider that he knew what game Snoke was playing and was using the situation and Rey to get to Snoke while potentially getting a powerful ally on the hook that he could manipulate to his own ends.  But it seems far more likely that Kylo was just inspired to action because he thought he had found someone who could understand him, and that Snoke missed it because he really wasn't all that powerful - just a puffed up redshirted Grima, to be disposed of unceremoniously.

I think you are conflating bad judgment with being emo.  Are you saying that anyone who acted as Kylo did, giving impulsive commands to an armed force, is emo?

Plus, when you say you expected some particular behavior at that moment to show growth, why would his character growth hinge solely on that moment?  Why would it negate any other character change prior to that moment?

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2018, 10:33:47 PM »
I have had a realization about the Star Wars franchise and why it might be hitting some rocks with TLJ.

Fundamentally, Star Wars is a nostalgia property.  Even the original in 1977 was a nostalgia movie to pulp serials and 1940's movies.  It was about giving the audience what they have had before in creative ways.  The stories and tropes in the movies were always predictable.  What made them original is how they were put together, the effects and overall production values.  It's all about what was awesome in the past, whether it's old movies, old stories or history within the franchise.

In TLJ, Rian  Johnson has gone out of his way to destroy all of that.  Subvert expectations, cut off old plot threads as irrelevant, make big changes to old characters, etc.  You can argue about whether this is a good idea for the franchise or not, but he's not been following the pattern for the main Star Wars movies.  The number one thing for keeping people happy is to manage expectations.  If people are expecting movie #8 in the series to be the same style as the previous 7, you're going to be fighting up hill from the get-go.

I think one thing Rian Johnson fails to realize that perhaps runs parallel to your observation is that Rian Johnson thinks Star Wars is science fiction, when he's simply straight up wrong and it is actually fantasy.

So much of TLJ is not in my opinion bad, it is *wrong*.  Those aren't the same thing.  Bad cinema is technically incorrect: it is shot poorly, it is paced poorly, it is confusing, it is boring, it is unentertaining.  Bad cinema would be bad anywhere.  But a lot of TLJ is wrong: it isn't shot poorly or looks awful or is wildly unentertaining taken in small scope: it feels like it doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie.

Of course, there is a lot of bad in there in my opinion also, but there's a lot of bad in the prequels that isn't wrong.  Just bad.

Night-Hawk07

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2018, 05:32:29 AM »
So much of TLJ is not in my opinion bad, it is *wrong*.  Those aren't the same thing.  Bad cinema is technically incorrect: it is shot poorly, it is paced poorly, it is confusing, it is boring, it is unentertaining.  Bad cinema would be bad anywhere.  But a lot of TLJ is wrong: it isn't shot poorly or looks awful or is wildly unentertaining taken in small scope: it feels like it doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie.

I'm going to use that now, cause that's the best way I've seen my own feelings described.

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2018, 12:50:55 PM »
I think you are conflating bad judgment with being emo.  Are you saying that anyone who acted as Kylo did, giving impulsive commands to an armed force, is emo?

Plus, when you say you expected some particular behavior at that moment to show growth, why would his character growth hinge solely on that moment?  Why would it negate any other character change prior to that moment?

Depends on the emotion they showed while doing it.  If they acted like a raging screamo child while doing it, then likely yes.

If he's going to show that he's grown, then what better place than the climactic moment when he's confronted with the looming shadow of his childhood?  The perfect place to show that maybe the earlier bid for freedom from Snoke was more than just a spur of the moment thing.  As it was, that moment seemed more to me like a laser focussed "save the girl because of twisted love" kinda thing and there was no growth.  He remains a damaged child, and he showed that when confronted by Luke. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Dev7on

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 11:46:55 PM »
Hey guys check out what HISHE did to fix the movie. It makes more sense than the original and it's also satisfying.  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2018, 04:04:45 AM »
Depends on the emotion they showed while doing it.  If they acted like a raging screamo child while doing it, then likely yes.

If he's going to show that he's grown, then what better place than the climactic moment when he's confronted with the looming shadow of his childhood?  The perfect place to show that maybe the earlier bid for freedom from Snoke was more than just a spur of the moment thing.  As it was, that moment seemed more to me like a laser focussed "save the girl because of twisted love" kinda thing and there was no growth.  He remains a damaged child, and he showed that when confronted by Luke.

I would say that this is not the perfect moment to show growth: it would be the perfect moment to show he had conquered his past.  That he was no longer ruled by his past.  But that's the conclusion to growth, not growth.  It would show that he had grown, not that he was growing.  If this was intended to be the middle of his path, there should be clear indications that he is better than where he started, but still had a long way to go.  If you show him in control in this climatic moment, I don't see the good place to show the counter-point, that there were still much greater hurdles to overcome as part of his growth path.

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2018, 05:34:33 AM »
No longer being ruled by his past wouldn't necessarily be the conclusion of his proposed growth, just the conclusion of that growth contained within his arc in TLJ.  After all, he still needs to become a proper villain in the next movie.  Conquering his past in that climactic moment would've made for a proper end and beginning. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

saipaman

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2018, 08:13:06 PM »
You guys have put more effort into thinking about this movie than the people that made it.

LateNights

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2018, 07:33:11 AM »

The Force Awakens is not the greatest Star Wars movie, but I find myself hoping that he somehow fixes Star Wars by doing to Rian Johnson what Rian Johnson did to him: give TLJ the middle finger and ignore it completely when making the next film.  I would literally not feel bad if at the start of Episode Nine we discover that Episode Eight was a bedtime story told to a child by a resistance fighter with a head injury that messes with his memory.

I'm gonna know straight away whats happened if news breaks of this guys untimely passing!!

;D
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 05:30:58 AM by LateNights »

doc7924

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2018, 01:15:48 PM »
You guys have put more effort into thinking about this movie than the people that made it.

I think that's safe to say for just about any movie or tv show.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2018, 02:32:30 AM »
You guys have put more effort into thinking about this movie than the people that made it.

For a good movie, that is hopefully true.  For a bad movie, that is unfortunately true.

Vee

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2018, 06:22:13 AM »
Was in Sam's today and they had the Bluray menu up on all their TVs. Started laughing when I saw the audio commentary option. Has the potential to be the funniest alternate track since Brad Neely's Wizard People.

Night-Hawk07

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2018, 04:22:41 AM »
Picked it up yesterday at Best Buy. Still just as underwhelmed as when I left the theater. It's got its good parts, but still just doesn't fill me with the same joy as 1-6 do. I'm not holding my breath on Ep. 9 being much better.

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2018, 05:23:39 AM »
Picked it up yesterday at Best Buy. Still just as underwhelmed as when I left the theater. It's got its good parts, but still just doesn't fill me with the same joy as 1-6 do. I'm not holding my breath on Ep. 9 being much better.

I got a ghost of joy from 7, which was more than I got from 1-3.  I'd rank 8 above 1.  Darth Crybaby is slightly less annoying than Yippee kid.  If not for the performance of the guy playing young Kenobi, I'd probably write off the prequels entirely. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Mandu

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2018, 11:05:57 AM »
I've been underwhelmed by the new movies so I didn't even see this one in the theater. I'll probably see it when I can pick up the Disney code from the blu-ray for $10 or less.  So maybe within six months.

Night-Hawk07

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2018, 06:11:30 PM »
Young Anakin never bothered me. He's 9...I know I was pretty annoying as a 9 year old. I'm sure most people were. The only things that really bother me with the prequels is some of the dialogue in 2 and 3 is really cringy, and now that we have Blu-ray and 4K TVs it's super obvious where the green screen was used (which was everywhere).

And of course Jar Jar, but after TPM he's not really involved enough to bother me too much. I always skip his episodes when watching TCW.

I just don't much care for any of the characters that aren't Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie or the droids. BB-8's cool. Finn was building up to be cool, but his arc with Rose just killed it for me. Everyone else is "meh" with a serious dislike for Not-Vader.

hurple

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2018, 02:10:55 PM »
Was in Sam's today and they had the Bluray menu up on all their TVs. Started laughing when I saw the audio commentary option. Has the potential to be the funniest alternate track since Brad Neely's Wizard People.

If you can find the first release of Michael Nesmith's Elephant Parts, that sets the standards for hilarious commentary.  Except for one brief, hilarious, moment, the commentary has literally nothing to do with the video.

Unfortunately, he re-recorded a "real" commentary for subsequent re-releases.

doc7924

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2018, 05:17:29 PM »
If you can find the first release of Michael Nesmith's Elephant Parts, that sets the standards for hilarious commentary.  Except for one brief, hilarious, moment, the commentary has literally nothing to do with the video.

Unfortunately, he re-recorded a "real" commentary for subsequent re-releases.

I have been a Monkees / Nesmith fan since the 60's.

If you ever saw his 'Television Parts' series there are many short skits by people who were just starting out their career - Whoopi Goldberg, Jay Leno, Gary Shandling and a lot more.

Even on his commentaries on the few Monkees episodes he did for the DVD sets he barely talks about the episode.
The only one her talks about the actual thing you are watching is "HEAD" on Blu ray