Author Topic: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)  (Read 21299 times)

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2018, 01:36:57 PM »
I think even more of a problem with Superman on the big screen, and to some extent TV, is that they continually make him WAY too powerful for anything to be even a remote threat to him.  That's why the Man of Steel movie had to start with the first villains Superman faces are the exiled Kryptonians (which kinda ruins the whole Superman as last Kryptonian thing, doesn't it?)

 Just like Justice League and Flashpoint, that is a story that needs built to, not to open with.

Byrne had the right idea in the comics when he relaunched Superman in the 80's... Tone down the powers to a more reasonable level, where the climax to the film doesn't have to be Superman literally stopping an earthquake!

Yeah well there was one Superboy story from the 50's where he held the Earth upside down over his head!

Or a Superman (or Superboy) story where he pushed the Earth out of orbit and then put it back.

In the 70's there was that whole sand creature arc that took like half his power, but after a while he was back to blowing out stars with his super breath.


CG

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
Superman stories need to be about things where he can't necessarily solve everything by punching it.

One of the Superman video games in the past was where he was literally invincible (could take no damage) but his health track was how much damage the city had taken.  You had to save the city.

Ignoring the golden/silver age Superman where they invented new powers weekly, there are things he can't do.  He can't cure disease, he can't create peace (only stop war - which while useful, isn't self -sustaining), he has friends and loved ones to protect, he's not a killer and follows the laws (which means that he can't just kill Luthor - only stop his plans).

There are a lot of great superman stories out there, but they are usually best when he's not punching things to resolve. 

Superman is very different from other characters because of his immense power.  An easy way to provide a challenge to another character is to give them something more powerful (Like Bane for Batman) but that becomes absurd for Superman.  Instead you get better villains where they're not stronger, but providing challenges that Superman can't (or won't) resolve with punching.  Lex Luthor is an awesome villain in that regard.  Lex is a perfect villain in that he's much smarter than Superman which is orthogonal to Superman's physical power.  This creates stories where Lex is doing a million little things that achieve his goals where Superman can't find and stop all million problems.  Usually Superman stops enough, but it never resorts to punching Lex.

Writer just need to be more creative when writing Superman.  His real superpower is he's a good man.  Use that to defeat the bad guys.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2018, 02:51:08 PM »
Superman stories need to be about things where he can't necessarily solve everything by punching it.

One of the Superman video games in the past was where he was literally invincible (could take no damage) but his health track was how much damage the city had taken.  You had to save the city.

Ignoring the golden/silver age Superman where they invented new powers weekly, there are things he can't do.  He can't cure disease, he can't create peace (only stop war - which while useful, isn't self -sustaining), he has friends and loved ones to protect, he's not a killer and follows the laws (which means that he can't just kill Luthor - only stop his plans).

There are a lot of great superman stories out there, but they are usually best when he's not punching things to resolve. 

Superman is very different from other characters because of his immense power.  An easy way to provide a challenge to another character is to give them something more powerful (Like Bane for Batman) but that becomes absurd for Superman.  Instead you get better villains where they're not stronger, but providing challenges that Superman can't (or won't) resolve with punching.  Lex Luthor is an awesome villain in that regard.  Lex is a perfect villain in that he's much smarter than Superman which is orthogonal to Superman's physical power.  This creates stories where Lex is doing a million little things that achieve his goals where Superman can't find and stop all million problems.  Usually Superman stops enough, but it never resorts to punching Lex.

Writer just need to be more creative when writing Superman.  His real superpower is he's a good man.  Use that to defeat the bad guys.

And let's not forget Superboy Prime literally punching reality.


Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2018, 06:54:25 PM »
And let's not forget Superboy Prime literally punching reality.

If only we could.

saipaman

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2018, 05:26:29 AM »
I'd say the very best type of Superman story is one that relates how Superman inspires other people.   On his own, Superman is just plain out and out boring.

Tenzhi

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2018, 05:42:23 AM »
I'd say the very best type of Superman story is one that relates how Superman inspires other people.   On his own, Superman is just plain out and out boring.

And let's face it: the last time he inspired anyone was when he was dead.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2018, 08:10:31 PM »
I finally got to see this and I like it a lot.

Its no Avengers, but it has its moments.

Affleck makes a very good Batman IMO. ("I bought the bank.")

I didn't think I would like the Flash since I love the TV show, but this guy was really good. Probably one of the best things in it.

And Aquaman was good too. I am actually looking forward to the solo films now.

But the problem is with Superman. He shows how useless the others are since he is so damn powerful.





hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2018, 01:31:01 PM »
But the problem is with Superman. He shows how useless the others are since he is so damn powerful.

Yep.  And the movie Superman never should have been that.  They should have brought the "Byrne" Superman to the screen.


CG

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2018, 02:24:38 PM »
Yep.  And the movie Superman never should have been that.  They should have brought the "Byrne" Superman to the screen.
Even the Byrne Superman is ridiculously powerful.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2018, 03:28:53 PM »
I do wonder how Barry got his powers though.

He wasn't working in the crime lab as he had just gotten the job at the end, so I guess he didn't get dosed with chemicals. At least not there.

And did I not hear Lois yell "Clark" when he was fighting the JLA, right in front of at least two cops?

Reminds me of the last 1990 Flash episode with the Trickster when during the 'trial' she yelled "Barry" right in front of the Trickster.

And as for Clark - he and Superman died on the same day. So did a lot of other civilians so not a big connection there.

But Superman comes back from the dead, and so does Clark. After they even show his funeral and being buried in front of people.

So how they can explain that away as at the end he is obviously Clark going back to work. (In the comics they have done it a 100 times so I guess they can work it out)

 

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2018, 01:50:00 PM »
Even the Byrne Superman is ridiculously powerful.

But he wasn't juggling planets.   :o


CG

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2018, 07:53:47 PM »
But he wasn't juggling planets.   :o
Admittedly, I have not seem the movie, but does Superman juggle planets in it?

Is there something in the movie that makes you think he's much more powerful than Byrne's Superman?

Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2018, 08:22:48 PM »
He had to stop juggling them because one of the planets was named Martha.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2018, 09:11:35 PM »
He had to stop juggling them because one of the planets was named Martha.

Oh Snap.



hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2018, 01:35:27 PM »
Admittedly, I have not seem the movie, but does Superman juggle planets in it?

Is there something in the movie that makes you think he's much more powerful than Byrne's Superman?

The complete and utter destruction of Metropolis for one.  Superman II was better, the Kryptonian fight caused damage, but he wasn't exploding buildings with his heat vision like in the Man Of Steel. 

I thought he was WAY over-powered (for a film version) in Man Of Steel (and BvS and Justice League)