Author Topic: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)  (Read 21160 times)

Golden Girl

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Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« on: November 16, 2017, 11:05:51 PM »
It's as jaw-droppingly awful as the trailers made it look - perhaps even more so, if that's possible - a 300 million dollar exercise in self-humiliation by DC that's stands out even among the insultingly dreadful dumpster fire that passes for their "cinematic universe".

All the usual train-wreck flaws from the previous movies are front and center - a non-existent plot, pitiful dialogue, characters so far from their comic book origins that they can't even be considered parodies, amateur level cinematography and CGI that would've looked bad in a Playstation 2 cutscene.

Affleck - the only member of the trinity with any form of acting ability - alternates between bored and tired, while Cavill and Gadot give their usual dead-eyed, blank-faced soulless mannequin "performances".

The character meant to be Aquaman is laughable - the character meant to be the Flash is indescribable - and the character meant to be Cyborg is nothing - a blank void of nothing.

The villain/miniboss manages to make every Marvel cinematic villain look like Heath Ledger's Joker, and manages to outdo even the most recent Fantastic Four movie to take the prize as the biggest movie insult to Jack Kirby.

The "movie" - if it can even be called that - is incompetent on every conceivable level, and the only form of skill on display is whatever it was that enabled them to take something as great as the Justice League and turn it into something as wretched as this.

There isn't a single shred of charm, warmth, wit, humanity, heart or soul to be found anywhere in it - and it's only redeeming feature is that it's mercifully the shortest of these DC "movies" so far.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:16:47 PM by Golden Girl »
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Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 02:00:15 AM »
Not seen it yet but I'm nonplussed given what a huge Zach Snyder fangirl you usually are.

They lost me when they decided to CGI out Cavill's moustache. White pancake makeup or GTFO >:O

saipaman

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 06:15:54 AM »
... amateur level cinematography and CGI that would've looked bad in a Playstation 2 cutscene.

This is absolutely true.   

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 07:11:29 AM »
Not seen it yet but I'm nonplussed given what a huge Zach Snyder fangirl you usually are.

They lost me when they decided to CGI out Cavill's moustache. White pancake makeup or GTFO >:O

In keeping with the general tone of this "movie", it would have been simpler and cheaper just to have Cavill hold his cape in front of his face the whole time.
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ryuplaneswalker

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 10:44:33 AM »
Quote
characters so far from their comic book origins that they can't even be considered parodies

This is my biggest problem with the DCCU, I watched about half of Man of Steel and just got bored. It wasn't Superman (And I don't mind Reboots or alternate versions at all) it was "Superman" as Imagined by someone who has only read the GrimDark 90s Superman deconstructions. Between that and the god awful "religious" symbolism it felt like it was made by a 13 year old.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 02:42:44 PM »
It's as jaw-droppingly awful as the trailers made it look - perhaps even more so, if that's possible - a 300 million dollar exercise in self-humiliation by DC that's stands out even among the insultingly dreadful dumpster fire that passes for their "cinematic universe".

All the usual train-wreck flaws from the previous movies are front and center - a non-existent plot, pitiful dialogue, characters so far from their comic book origins that they can't even be considered parodies, amateur level cinematography and CGI that would've looked bad in a Playstation 2 cutscene.

Affleck - the only member of the trinity with any form of acting ability - alternates between bored and tired, while Cavill and Gadot give their usual dead-eyed, blank-faced soulless mannequin "performances".

The character meant to be Aquaman is laughable - the character meant to be the Flash is indescribable - and the character meant to be Cyborg is nothing - a blank void of nothing.

The villain/miniboss manages to make every Marvel cinematic villain look like Heath Ledger's Joker, and manages to outdo even the most recent Fantastic Four movie to take the prize as the biggest movie insult to Jack Kirby.

The "movie" - if it can even be called that - is incompetent on every conceivable level, and the only form of skill on display is whatever it was that enabled them to take something as great as the Justice League and turn it into something as wretched as this.

There isn't a single shred of charm, warmth, wit, humanity, heart or soul to be found anywhere in it - and it's only redeeming feature is that it's mercifully the shortest of these DC "movies" so far.

So, tell us how you really feel about it.

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 05:19:51 PM »
This is my biggest problem with the DCCU, I watched about half of Man of Steel and just got bored. It wasn't Superman (And I don't mind Reboots or alternate versions at all) it was "Superman" as Imagined by someone who has only read the GrimDark 90s Superman deconstructions. Between that and the god awful "religious" symbolism it felt like it was made by a 13 year old.

The thing meant to be Aquaman in this latest insult to the DC universe is portrayed as a typical dude-bro, with no sense of the power and majesty that the king of Atlantis should have. And what makes it even more laughable, and yet another example of WB's total incompetence and lack of planning, is that the the Aquaman solo movie is supposed to have a heavy horror movie vibe, so the frat-boy of Atlantis caricature  is obviously going to mesh so well with that idea.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 09:58:07 PM »
Frat boys and horror movies do go hand in hand...

But that Aquaman just ain't blonde enough.  He didn't look blonde at all to me in earlier trailers.  Only recently did I see the frosted tips and streaks.

My favourite Aquaman is the bombastic adventurer in Batman the Brave and the Bold.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 11:02:13 PM »
My favourite Aquaman is the bombastic adventurer in Batman the Brave and the Bold.

Outrageous! We'll call it the adventure of the frosted tip frat boy!

ryuplaneswalker

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 11:43:12 PM »
The thing meant to be Aquaman in this latest insult to the DC universe is portrayed as a typical dude-bro, with no sense of the power and majesty that the king of Atlantis should have. And what makes it even more laughable, and yet another example of WB's total incompetence and lack of planning, is that the the Aquaman solo movie is supposed to have a heavy horror movie vibe, so the frat-boy of Atlantis caricature  is obviously going to mesh so well with that idea.


[writer speak]Bu bu bu..Aquaman was totally uncool, we deconstructed him by making him what is considered cool these days, you see its like he is the opposite of what he was in superfriends. [/writer speak]

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 01:01:24 AM »

[writer speak]Bu bu bu..Aquaman was totally uncool, we deconstructed him by making him what is considered cool these days, you see its like he is the opposite of what he was in superfriends. [/writer speak]

"My ability to speak to fish doesn't seem to be helping."

Also just saw that JL will make 'only' about $95 million opening weekend. Its sad how much movies cost these days when $95 million is considered a bad box office number.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 01:08:35 AM by doc7924 »

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 04:18:07 AM »
I think it'll open higher than that - anything under 100 million would be a whole new level of humiliation for WB.
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ryuplaneswalker

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2017, 09:43:20 AM »
"My ability to speak to fish doesn't seem to be helping."

Also just saw that JL will make 'only' about $95 million opening weekend. Its sad how much movies cost these days when $95 million is considered a bad box office number.

I don't think it is so much the Budget that makes the 95 Million weekend real bad. It is that if it is below 100 Million, then they are just screwed. it would mean that DC's gigantic thing that they spent movies setting up..didn't even out do a single Thor movie, and as underrated as I think the First Thor movie was..he is pretty  much the least well loved of the Avengers.

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 05:36:38 PM »
Reports do seem to be suggesting that the weekend will be under 100 million - maybe even as low as 93 million - and to help put the scale of this disaster in even more hilarious terms - adjusted for inflation, Batman and Robin opened with 83 million.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 09:21:40 PM »
The thing meant to be Aquaman in this latest insult to the DC universe is portrayed as a typical dude-bro, with no sense of the power and majesty that the king of Atlantis should have. And what makes it even more laughable, and yet another example of WB's total incompetence and lack of planning, is that the the Aquaman solo movie is supposed to have a heavy horror movie vibe, so the frat-boy of Atlantis caricature  is obviously going to mesh so well with that idea.

There actually is a good reason for this.  By good I mean valid but not necessarily meaning it was a good decision.  The Aquaman in the movie is not the king of Atlantis... yet.  Supposedly part of his backstory which was cut from the movie is that he was in Atlantis as a child and had one mentor hyping him about how he was the rightful king.  But since he was a halfbreed his claim was rejected and he was treated like crap.  He got treated like Maximus did in the Inhumans tv show.  So he ran away from Atlantis while still a kid and basically wound up growing up as a beach bum. In that light his behavior fits perfectly. 

Aquaman becoming the king of Atlantis is supposed to be the story in his solo movie and the events take place after the JLA events. It will be the classic Hollywood story where the partying, shallow, thoughtless member of the family suddenly winds up with a ton of responsibility and  has to mature overnight to save his people.  It's like Buffy becoming the slayer. Oliver becoming Arrow. Ralph becoming Elongated Man, etc...

ryuplaneswalker

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 12:15:26 AM »
http://draft.diamondclub.tv/

38 Million US Domestic so far, not a good sign.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2017, 02:53:25 PM »
Generally, I found the movie to be quite entertaining, but the plot was horribly simplistic and rife with holes. Steppenwolf's mission seemed way too easy for him.

Okay, Batsy. Superman is a beacon. But how?! So far, the whole franchise has only shown Supes is good for one thing: punches. That's not what makes Superman a beacon. These writers seem utterly incapable of showing "how," so they simple tell us. I guess part of this blame goes to Cavill, as well.

The last things that should be changed about this movie are Flash and Aquaman. They saved Justice League from being more overly depressing crap.

They probably should have used a live actor for Steppenwolf.
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Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 03:35:45 AM »
Ok yeah, that was really awful. Not quite as bad as Suicide Squad but that could just be the absence of Will Smith.

Dev7on

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 05:23:18 AM »
I saw the movie over the weekend and I think it's an ok movie. I really enjoyed it and I was entertained surprisingly. If you turn off your brain you'll have a good time. First and foremost, everyone is complaining about Henry Cavil's CGI face. I didn't even notice it at all. In my opinion I think they could've done a little bit more on Cyborg's character and his back story. It felt very jarring to me. I like how they did with The Flash. He's surprisingly funny and they made him nerdy. The Flash is my favorite character in the movie and he's my favorite superhero.  Batman and Wonder Women were ok. I don't like Aquaman's character. I DIDN'T like how they brought back Superman! I'm not a Superman fan but, the way they did it was disrespectful to me. DC ABSOLUTELY need to have a better villain. For the first time I'm really interested in seeing the extended cut of this. The movie was too short for me. Last but, not least I couldn't tell which segment was Snyder and which segment was Whedon.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:42:54 AM by Dev7on »

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 02:39:56 PM »
It's as jaw-droppingly awful as the trailers made it look - perhaps even more so, if that's possible - a 300 million dollar exercise in self-humiliation by DC that's stands out even among the insultingly dreadful dumpster fire that passes for their "cinematic universe".

All the usual train-wreck flaws from the previous movies are front and center - a non-existent plot, pitiful dialogue, characters so far from their comic book origins that they can't even be considered parodies, amateur level cinematography and CGI that would've looked bad in a Playstation 2 cutscene.

Affleck - the only member of the trinity with any form of acting ability - alternates between bored and tired, while Cavill and Gadot give their usual dead-eyed, blank-faced soulless mannequin "performances".

The character meant to be Aquaman is laughable - the character meant to be the Flash is indescribable - and the character meant to be Cyborg is nothing - a blank void of nothing.

The villain/miniboss manages to make every Marvel cinematic villain look like Heath Ledger's Joker, and manages to outdo even the most recent Fantastic Four movie to take the prize as the biggest movie insult to Jack Kirby.

The "movie" - if it can even be called that - is incompetent on every conceivable level, and the only form of skill on display is whatever it was that enabled them to take something as great as the Justice League and turn it into something as wretched as this.

There isn't a single shred of charm, warmth, wit, humanity, heart or soul to be found anywhere in it - and it's only redeeming feature is that it's mercifully the shortest of these DC "movies" so far.

So, tell us what you really though...

And I see that I'm the second person to say this.  That's the problem with posting before reading the rest of the comments.  Ha!

 :-\

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 02:46:37 PM »
Last but, not least I couldn't tell which segment was Snyder and which segment was Whedon.

Basically, all the good character moments were Whedon and all the over-the-top bombastic crap was Snyder.   ;D

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/18/justice-league-scenes-whedon-snyder/


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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 04:24:09 PM »
This is a pretty amusing read - https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/11/20/the-question-for-justice-league-is-not-how-much-money-it-will-make-but-how-much-it-could-lose/#2b6b28f7c665 - if things work out nicely, it looks like WB could actually take a financial hit from this disaster.
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doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 05:18:52 PM »
I think they need to do what Sony did and have Marvel help make their films. Worked for Spider-man


saipaman

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 05:23:42 PM »
An Arrowverse movie would have done better.

Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 07:57:59 PM »
An Arrowverse movie would have done better.

/e shudder
/e grief
/e noooo

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
An Arrowverse movie would have done better.

At least next week we'll be getting a DC team up that will help wash that taste of this vile JL insult away.
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Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2017, 10:59:35 PM »
Like siphoning a septic tank to get rid of the taste from siphoning a gas tank?

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2017, 11:08:35 PM »
Like siphoning a septic tank to get rid of the taste from siphoning a gas tank?

More along the lines of watching a live action comic rather than the deranged ramblings of a half-witted man-child.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:15:05 PM by Golden Girl »
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Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2017, 11:09:48 PM »
I seem to have double posted :P
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:15:25 PM by Golden Girl »
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2017, 12:14:07 AM »
as a longtime half-witted man-child i resent the comparison ;D

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2017, 03:04:25 AM »
/e shudder
/e grief
/e noooo

Even if it was a total failure, an Arrowverse movie won't cost $300 million.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2017, 04:09:34 AM »
Saw JL over the weekend, and I'm still processing the movie.  I honestly can't rate the movie, because the movie is weirdly impossible for me to rate.

There's three different contexts you can watch this movie in.  First, you can watch it as a continuation of the first two movies (Man of Steel and BvS).  Its a horrible continuation of the previous two movies.  It shifts not just the tone but even the characters in very jarring ways from BvS and even to some degree Man of Steel.  If you see it as a continuation of the first two movies, the plot is a mess and the characters (that come from previous movies) are confused.  There's also no real payoff for being the third movie.

However, you could argue that we shouldn't look at it as a continuation of the previous two, that we should give Warner the benefit of the doubt that they want to change things from the previous two.  But if we look at the movie as a stand alone movie, then it has no center.  The plot and the characters come out of nowhere with almost nothing to explain what is going on.  It is not even remotely self-contained.  Without the prior two movies, the movie doesn't stand alone at all.  And that's not true for a movie like, say, The Avengers.  It was important to build up to that movie, so the prior movies connect very well with it.  But even if you ignore the previous movies, The Avengers is still a relatively self-contained movie.  You lose something without the character construction from the previous movies, but you don't fail to understand the story has a beginning, middle, and end.  You cannot say that about JL.

The only way to look at JL in a way that doesn't cause it to fall apart is as a soft reboot, a very, very soft reboot.  In comic book fashion, they've decided to build upon the prior works, but only take what they want and toss the rest.  They are basically dictating to us in JL what we should believe and what we should forget about the prior movies.

We should believe that Superman was a beloved world hero, even though BvS portrayed him as being held in suspicion by many, worshipped in an almost cult-like fashion by some, and called to be held responsible for his collateral acts by the powers that be.  He was mourned in BvS, but we never saw him as being a beacon of hope in BvS.  We should believe that Bruce Wayne is a tired burnout, but not a borderline manic warrior against crime, even though that directly contradicts BvS.

If we simply accept what we are told in BvS like a comic book retcon, then JL coalesces into a reasonably entertaining movie.  Wonder Woman is still great.  Jason Momoa's portrayal of Aquaman is pretty solid, and even the twitchy Flash in JL stays on the other side of annoying.  *IF* you are willing to let go of BvS, the movie is actually pretty enjoyable.

It is still flawed.  Warners directive to limit the movie to two hours hurts the movie.  It is obviously chopped up to make it fit the runtime.  The ending trivializes the entire first two thirds of the movie.  They may have painted themselves into a corner they shouldn't by making the final fight so very obviously overmatched in the way it was.

Is this Justice League one worth watching.  Well, I think it is a better Justice League than we were likely to get if we just extrapolate from BvS.  Its a decent attempt to course correct the franchise.  But the movie shows that the errors of the past are so severe that trying to straighten out the franchise in a single movie cracks and warps the DCEU in very obvious ways.

What I think JL tells me more than anything else is how absolutely wrong BvS is.  There is an alternate version of reality in which MoS, BvS, and JL form a cohesive whole that might not be loved by the fans and critics but at least not disliked as much.  It goes like this:

In Man of Steel, Clark starts off as he does in the movie, as an outsider who does not know his place in the world, and the only thing he does know is that he cannot walk away when people need help.  And then General Zod comes to Earth and forces him to make a choice: embrace his Kryptonian heritage or stand with the people of Earth where he lived all his life.  And in the end he decides to become the Superman of Earth, representing and protecting the humans who he has adopted as his new home.

BvS should have been the movie where Superman has fully embraced being Superman, and while there are those that fear or distrust him, the people of Earth have come to embrace his attempts to help all the people of the world, regardless of country or background.  The "little people" love him.  But Luthor preys on the powers that be convincing them that Superman is a threat.  Those powers that be include Bruce Wayne, who has seen the destruction and collateral damage that Superman caused in Gotham and while he can respect the good things he is doing now, he cannot shake the believe that without a failsafe Superman could become the biggest threat to humanity ever.  However, as Batman he eventually discovers that Luthor isn't researching a failsafe, he is trying to assassinate Superman by unleashing a Kryptonian biological weapon: Doomsday.  Batman tries to bring down Luthor himself but is forced to swallow his pride and go to Superman when Luthor becomes too powerful with Kryptonian technology for Batman alone to bring him down.  In the process Superman is killed, and in his guilt for being initially suckered into Luthor's plan Bruce decides its time for him to reenter the world and seek out these people with abilities, because its better to know them and work with them than not know anything about them and in his ignorance be vulnerable to manipulation by people like Luthor.

If this is the trajectory of MoS and BvS, then JL becomes the natural logical progression of the three movies.  Batman makes sense: he is trying to assemble the JL in part because of his visions, but also because he realizes that these people with abilities can be forces for good or bad, and he needs to know them well enough to tell them apart.  He also feels guilt about Superman, and it is that guilt that causes him to decide to do what he does in JL.

The ending of JL becomes the payoff for the movie.  Instead of the fight itself being the (weak) payoff, it is Bruce Wayne's willingness to put the fate of the world in the hands of metahumans that is the emotional payoff for the movie.  He knows he can't do this forever, but he can try to make sure the metahumans that can do this forever are the right ones, doing the right things for the right reasons, at least to him.

Then you have the Aquaman movie, WW2, the Flash and Cyborg movie, they beat Darkseid in JL2, you have a bunch more movies, and then you bring out JL: Tower of Babel, where all of Bruce's insecurities going all the way back to BvS and JL1 pay off.

Bottom line, I actually enjoyed watching Justice League, for all of its flaws.  It was a fun movie, in a way BvS was not.  But it highlights the fact that the DCEU is an incredible sequence of lost opportunities, and Warners still has no patience.  As long as Warners is impatient and Marvel thinks in terms of ten year story arcs, Disney is going to keep kicking Warners butt.

Its unfortunate that the story I want to see most is the story told in brief flashback: how Steppenwolf was turned back the first time.  *That* looked like an awesome story.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2017, 04:27:56 AM »
It is obviously chopped up to make it fit the runtime.

And yet Martha and Lois doing their best impersonation of a Colonial Penn life insurance commercial still made the cut.

The flashback part was fun though.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2017, 07:44:09 AM »
I honestly can't rate the movie

Neither can anyone with half a brain.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2017, 08:06:02 AM »
Neither can anyone with half a brain.

Fish out of 42?

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2017, 02:39:11 PM »
Fish out of 42?

Beetle out of 52.

It's DC, not Hitchhiker's Guide.



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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2017, 03:53:55 PM »
Saw JL over the weekend, and I'm still processing the movie.  I honestly can't rate the movie, because the movie is weirdly impossible for me to rate.

There's three different contexts you can watch this movie in.  First, you can watch it as a continuation of the first two movies (Man of Steel and BvS).  Its a horrible continuation of the previous two movies.  It shifts not just the tone but even the characters in very jarring ways from BvS and even to some degree Man of Steel.  If you see it as a continuation of the first two movies, the plot is a mess and the characters (that come from previous movies) are confused.  There's also no real payoff for being the third movie.

However, you could argue that we shouldn't look at it as a continuation of the previous two, that we should give Warner the benefit of the doubt that they want to change things from the previous two.  But if we look at the movie as a stand alone movie, then it has no center.  The plot and the characters come out of nowhere with almost nothing to explain what is going on.  It is not even remotely self-contained.  Without the prior two movies, the movie doesn't stand alone at all.  And that's not true for a movie like, say, The Avengers.  It was important to build up to that movie, so the prior movies connect very well with it.  But even if you ignore the previous movies, The Avengers is still a relatively self-contained movie.  You lose something without the character construction from the previous movies, but you don't fail to understand the story has a beginning, middle, and end.  You cannot say that about JL.

The only way to look at JL in a way that doesn't cause it to fall apart is as a soft reboot, a very, very soft reboot.  In comic book fashion, they've decided to build upon the prior works, but only take what they want and toss the rest.  They are basically dictating to us in JL what we should believe and what we should forget about the prior movies.

We should believe that Superman was a beloved world hero, even though BvS portrayed him as being held in suspicion by many, worshipped in an almost cult-like fashion by some, and called to be held responsible for his collateral acts by the powers that be.  He was mourned in BvS, but we never saw him as being a beacon of hope in BvS.  We should believe that Bruce Wayne is a tired burnout, but not a borderline manic warrior against crime, even though that directly contradicts BvS.

If we simply accept what we are told in BvS like a comic book retcon, then JL coalesces into a reasonably entertaining movie.  Wonder Woman is still great.  Jason Momoa's portrayal of Aquaman is pretty solid, and even the twitchy Flash in JL stays on the other side of annoying.  *IF* you are willing to let go of BvS, the movie is actually pretty enjoyable.

It is still flawed.  Warners directive to limit the movie to two hours hurts the movie.  It is obviously chopped up to make it fit the runtime.  The ending trivializes the entire first two thirds of the movie.  They may have painted themselves into a corner they shouldn't by making the final fight so very obviously overmatched in the way it was.

Is this Justice League one worth watching.  Well, I think it is a better Justice League than we were likely to get if we just extrapolate from BvS.  Its a decent attempt to course correct the franchise.  But the movie shows that the errors of the past are so severe that trying to straighten out the franchise in a single movie cracks and warps the DCEU in very obvious ways.

What I think JL tells me more than anything else is how absolutely wrong BvS is.  There is an alternate version of reality in which MoS, BvS, and JL form a cohesive whole that might not be loved by the fans and critics but at least not disliked as much.  It goes like this:

In Man of Steel, Clark starts off as he does in the movie, as an outsider who does not know his place in the world, and the only thing he does know is that he cannot walk away when people need help.  And then General Zod comes to Earth and forces him to make a choice: embrace his Kryptonian heritage or stand with the people of Earth where he lived all his life.  And in the end he decides to become the Superman of Earth, representing and protecting the humans who he has adopted as his new home.

BvS should have been the movie where Superman has fully embraced being Superman, and while there are those that fear or distrust him, the people of Earth have come to embrace his attempts to help all the people of the world, regardless of country or background.  The "little people" love him.  But Luthor preys on the powers that be convincing them that Superman is a threat.  Those powers that be include Bruce Wayne, who has seen the destruction and collateral damage that Superman caused in Gotham and while he can respect the good things he is doing now, he cannot shake the believe that without a failsafe Superman could become the biggest threat to humanity ever.  However, as Batman he eventually discovers that Luthor isn't researching a failsafe, he is trying to assassinate Superman by unleashing a Kryptonian biological weapon: Doomsday.  Batman tries to bring down Luthor himself but is forced to swallow his pride and go to Superman when Luthor becomes too powerful with Kryptonian technology for Batman alone to bring him down.  In the process Superman is killed, and in his guilt for being initially suckered into Luthor's plan Bruce decides its time for him to reenter the world and seek out these people with abilities, because its better to know them and work with them than not know anything about them and in his ignorance be vulnerable to manipulation by people like Luthor.

If this is the trajectory of MoS and BvS, then JL becomes the natural logical progression of the three movies.  Batman makes sense: he is trying to assemble the JL in part because of his visions, but also because he realizes that these people with abilities can be forces for good or bad, and he needs to know them well enough to tell them apart.  He also feels guilt about Superman, and it is that guilt that causes him to decide to do what he does in JL.

The ending of JL becomes the payoff for the movie.  Instead of the fight itself being the (weak) payoff, it is Bruce Wayne's willingness to put the fate of the world in the hands of metahumans that is the emotional payoff for the movie.  He knows he can't do this forever, but he can try to make sure the metahumans that can do this forever are the right ones, doing the right things for the right reasons, at least to him.

Then you have the Aquaman movie, WW2, the Flash and Cyborg movie, they beat Darkseid in JL2, you have a bunch more movies, and then you bring out JL: Tower of Babel, where all of Bruce's insecurities going all the way back to BvS and JL1 pay off.

Bottom line, I actually enjoyed watching Justice League, for all of its flaws.  It was a fun movie, in a way BvS was not.  But it highlights the fact that the DCEU is an incredible sequence of lost opportunities, and Warners still has no patience.  As long as Warners is impatient and Marvel thinks in terms of ten year story arcs, Disney is going to keep kicking Warners butt.

Its unfortunate that the story I want to see most is the story told in brief flashback: how Steppenwolf was turned back the first time.  *That* looked like an awesome story.

Avengers worked because we had each hero built up in at least one film before they teamed up. So we got to know the characters.

in JL - we only have seen Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. We are seeing all the others for the first time in a team film and not getting a grip on the characters in solo films like Marvel.

It worked for Spider-Man in Civil War, but that was a special case.

I think DC is now trying to rush things along to catch up with Marvel and its not working.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2017, 11:08:21 PM »
Quote
I think DC is now trying to rush things along to catch up with Marvel and its not working.

They could have had a movie for Flash and Cyborg both but it wouldn't have helped. Wonder Woman being good was an aberration.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2017, 11:11:41 PM »
And yet Martha and Lois doing their best impersonation of a Colonial Penn life insurance commercial still made the cut.

That scene was necessary to connect to the ending.

I don't fault them that scene.  I remember when people were complaining about the farmhouse scene in Age of Ultron.  It was a little bit of a pacing problem, but those quiet character moments are necessary to remind the audience that the main characters are people with weaknesses and vulnerabilities and lives of their own.  A lot of people bemoaned that scene, but many Marvel fans are wondering where Hawkeye's family is given he's technically now an outlaw on the run.  Far fewer people are going to be wondering what Cyborg or even Wonder Woman is doing between movies after coming out of JL.  Maybe that scene was a weakness of Age of Ultron as cinematic work.  But as a continuing story, those scenes pay off in hard to quantify ways.

The Justice League is composed of even more god-like and difficult to relate to characters than the Marvel movies.  Even moreso they need to be grounded in some way.  The scene you are referring to felt clumsy to me, but the ending seemed appropriate and the scene with them together was necessary to connect to the ending.  That scene isn't "right" but it isn't wrong either in my opinion.  It is one more thing that goes wrong because the studio demanded a 120 minute cut, because they didn't want the movie to underperform, because they are paying for the mistakes of previous movies.

Warners needs to recognize that their mistakes aren't in what the movies contain, but what they don't contain.  It is about their approach, which is that they are trying to swing and hit nothing but home runs right from the start.  The whole idea of making a Batman vs Superman movie early in the cycle points to this failure to understand the big picture.  I think if JL does anything right it is that it takes a longer view of things.  It isn't about the big payoff and the cinematic moment.  Ironically, that's what movie audiences wanted after three movies, and why I think many were disappointed by JL.  The first time Marvel brought the Avengers together, the world was invaded by an army lead by one of the MCU's favorite villains, set the two strongest MCU heroes against each other, put the biggest fight to date in the middle of New York, and saw its most popular narcissist hero nearly sacrifice his life to save the world.  The first time Warners brings the Justice League together, it is to introduce Aquaman and Flash and talk about the most dangerous villain in the history of the world that subsequently gets stomped on in a way that I found genuinely insane.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 12:09:21 AM »
It was just an awkward scene. 6 academy award nominations worth of cringeworthy. Really though it's been 2 movies now where they've been paying for casting Amy Adams as Lois. They have to justify casting a top name with scenes but they don't really have much for her to do except watch Clark fight and look worried. Most of her scenes feel tacked on which contributes to the disjointedness they already have going in spades.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2017, 12:14:25 AM »
Avengers worked because we had each hero built up in at least one film before they teamed up. So we got to know the characters.

I don't think this is an entirely true statement.  In general, Marvel does a good job introducing characters and letting us get to know them before throwing them into other things or the big Avengers movies.  But I don't think you can credit this for the success of the first Avengers movie.  Although we *saw* Hawkeye in Thor, we were not introduced to the character until Avengers.  Hawkeye's cameo in Thor is not all that different from the cameos of the Flash and Aquaman in BvS.  And while we were introduced to Black Widow in Iron Man 2, we were not really introduced to the character much.  Even the Hulk is kind of soft-rebooted in Avengers.  The Avengers is anchored in the characters of Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, but it spends time building the other characters.

I think it is a true statement that the Avengers movie is a logical out growth of the prior movies and a very good payoff for Iron Man, Thor, and First Avenger.  But it is a very strong stand alone movie in its own right. And the three prior movies were also strong stand alone movies in their own right.  I think this shows when you consider that I believe Marvel word of mouth is a lot stronger than DCEU word of mouth.  There are a lot of Marvel fans who don't like all of the movies but are willing to take a chance on them.  There are a lot of Marvel fans who will recommend people watch a Marvel movie even if the person they are recommending the movie to didn't like previous Marvel movies.

Even if you didn't like Thor, you might like Guardians.  If you didn't like Guardians, try Winter Soldier.  Its okay to not like Winter Soldier, try Ant-Man.  Even if you didn't like any of them, try Dr. Strange or Ragnarok, maybe you'll like them.  These are things Marvel fans will tell people about upcoming Marvel movies.  But nobody really says this about the DCEU movies.  They don't stand alone.  If you liked one of them, you still might not like the others.  But if you didn't like MoS, odds are really good you're not going to like BvS either.  And I while I think more people will like JL than BvS, even I wouldn't recommend JL strongly to someone that doesn't like the current DCEU movies.

This is the real strength of the MCU in my opinion.  They didn't have access to the obvious franchise building properties.  They couldn't use X-Men.  They couldn't use Spiderman.  They couldn't use the FF.  So they had to start from scratch, and they had a weird hodgepodge group to try to build around.  Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America are all very different characters, with very different sensibilities.  Each had to exist in a very different story telling context.  That diversity became a huge strength for Marvel: it bought them the opportunity to branch out and experiment.  X-Men after X-Men movie doesn't buy you the opportunity to launch a Guardians, or an Ant Man, or a Dr. Strange.

Even if you didn't like *any* Marvel movie or have never seen a single one before I would still recommend you try Black Panther coming up.  I am willing to stick my neck out and ask someone, even a non-Marvel fan, to give it a shot.  I don't think people are sticking their necks out for the DCEU, even the people who like those movies, and that's ultimately what is costing them box office.

JL looks like it will end up making about as much money as Dr. Strange.  Now, you can look at that and say that since Dr. Strange cost much less money to make it is the more successful movie (Dr Strange cost about half as much).  But most people don't know that.  Most people only know how long the lines are for both movies, how many of their friends saw those movies, and how much people are talking about those movies.  The same number of people are ultimately going to watch those two movies in the theaters, and yet the buzz is that JL is a failure and Dr. Strange is a success.  And yet they both captured a similar number of eyeballs.  That's very important to take note of.  Forget the budget: most of us don't know the budget.  But we had a certain expectation for Strange: it was a quirky journey to an unexplored area of the MCU, and it delivered on that.  That's what makes it a success in the eyes of the fans and the movie going audience, not the numbers.  We expected great things from JL, and even the average uninformed movie going audience member probably expected a lot going into that movie given the build up to it.  The movie didn't deliver, so that makes it not a success.

Money isn't everything.  Suicide Squad was profitable.  By some analyses, Suicide Squad was more profitable than Winter Soldier.  But there's no question which movie was the more successful one.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2017, 12:19:41 AM »
It was just an awkward scene. 6 academy award nominations worth of cringeworthy. Really though it's been 2 movies now where they've been paying for casting Amy Adams as Lois. They have to justify casting a top name with scenes but they don't really have much for her to do except watch Clark fight and look worried. Most of her scenes feel tacked on which contributes to the disjointedness they already have going in spades.

I don't blame Amy Adams for that.  I've seen her in Arrival, I know she can play Lois Lane.  But they are not giving her enough to do.  Or rather, they are not giving her the right things to do.

Consider: why does she show up in the second act?  It isn't because of agency, it is because she is brought there.  In the comics, at least the modern comics, Lois Lane would have had more agency in that particular plot moment.  But here, because of the need to give that agency to another character, Lois Lane loses a major opportunity to be a stronger character.

In my opinion, the problem is not that they are trying to find things for Amy Adams to do.  The problem is when you are telling a story involving Superman, it should never be hard to find something for Lois Lane to do.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2017, 12:26:23 AM »
Oh I don't blame her at all. It's not her fault they can't write a coherent story where she'd behave like Lois Lane instead of writing a story then remembering they should probably figure out something for Lois to do.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2017, 02:26:49 PM »
Daredevil remains Affleck's best review superhero movie - it's understandable why he wants out :P
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2017, 05:48:10 PM »
They could have had a movie for Flash and Cyborg both but it wouldn't have helped. Wonder Woman being good was an aberration.

Well a least we got one great one out of them. Maybe that's all they had.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2017, 12:48:10 AM »
Daredevil remains Affleck's best review superhero movie - it's understandable why he wants out :P

Actually, no that's Justice League.  Justice League has the higher audience score on RT, and while it has slightly lower tomatometer percentage, it actually has the higher average rating (5.3 for JL, 5.2 for Daredevil).

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2017, 02:25:33 AM »
At least he diversifies. DD and JL are turds for completely different reasons.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2017, 07:03:23 AM »
Just got back from JL. Better than BvS, not as good as WW. That's not to say it's horrible, but I'm with Arcana on the bit about recommending people who don't care for DC movies see this one. Not like I would for any Marvel movie. I can gauge that through my girlfriend.

She's not a comic fan, and prior to meeting me, only saw the movies if her family was watching. She was the first one to mention seeing Thor, she's always down to watch Deadpool, and loves the Guardians of the Galaxy movies. I've had to drag her to see BvS, WW (which she ultimately liked), and now JL. She enjoyed JL, but not to the degree she does any Marvel movie.

Something else I want to point out from Arcana's post above: Dr. Strange's popularity vs. JL's. I'm probably not far off saying most of the audience that went to see Dr. Strange knew nothing, or at least very little, about him. Compare that to JL where everyone knows at least five of the six heroes featured in he movie; three of them probably being the most popular heroes on the planet. Yet, DC's heavy-hitter team-up movie is going to pull similar numbers to a Marvel B-lister. That has to hurt.

I'm as big of a Batman fanboy as they come, and even I found JL and BvS to be "good, but not as good as [insert Marvel movie here]." I'm not sure what it is, but DC is missing something Marvel got right. Not something minute us nerds will notice like story coherence and direction; the general movie audience doesn't seem to notice such things. Whatever it is, they need to figure it out.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2017, 02:47:56 PM »
I'm as big of a Batman fanboy as they come, and even I found JL and BvS to be "good, but not as good as [insert Marvel movie here]." I'm not sure what it is, but DC is missing something Marvel got right. Not something minute us nerds will notice like story coherence and direction; the general movie audience doesn't seem to notice such things. Whatever it is, they need to figure it out.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2017, 10:15:01 PM »
Just got back from JL. Better than BvS, not as good as WW. That's not to say it's horrible, but I'm with Arcana on the bit about recommending people who don't care for DC movies see this one. Not like I would for any Marvel movie. I can gauge that through my girlfriend.

She's not a comic fan, and prior to meeting me, only saw the movies if her family was watching. She was the first one to mention seeing Thor, she's always down to watch Deadpool, and loves the Guardians of the Galaxy movies. I've had to drag her to see BvS, WW (which she ultimately liked), and now JL. She enjoyed JL, but not to the degree she does any Marvel movie.

Something else I want to point out from Arcana's post above: Dr. Strange's popularity vs. JL's. I'm probably not far off saying most of the audience that went to see Dr. Strange knew nothing, or at least very little, about him. Compare that to JL where everyone knows at least five of the six heroes featured in he movie; three of them probably being the most popular heroes on the planet. Yet, DC's heavy-hitter team-up movie is going to pull similar numbers to a Marvel B-lister. That has to hurt.

There are two different forces acting here I think.  I think Dr. Strange benefited from the Marvel effect.  Its Marvel, why not give it a shot.  JL is dragging the DCEU behind it.  But it is also suffering from the fact that expectations were higher in some respects for JL, as many saw it as a kind of Avengers movie bringing together the different DC heroes.  But although JL was marketed as such to a degree, and the story build up from BvS suggests it, JL is not in the same place as Avengers was.  It is not a good culmination of anything.

Quote
I'm as big of a Batman fanboy as they come, and even I found JL and BvS to be "good, but not as good as [insert Marvel movie here]." I'm not sure what it is, but DC is missing something Marvel got right. Not something minute us nerds will notice like story coherence and direction; the general movie audience doesn't seem to notice such things. Whatever it is, they need to figure it out.

Fundamentally, Disney is patient and Warner is not.  Marvel Studios knows that if you make your audience care about the characters they will care about the story, and they are willing to spend time making sure the audience knows, and thus cares about the characters.  Warner is trying to make bank off of the reputation of the DC characters, and that is bouncing back on them because the people who understand the comic book DC characters the most don't like the incarnations in the DCEU.

I was really hoping to see the crazy magic I grew up seeing in the pages of Dr Strange in the movie.  Instead, I got a much different kind of magic that was more Kung Fu matrix movie and less mystic battle.  But you know what?  I can live with it, because I got Dr. Strange, sorcerer supreme on screen.  It is an elseworlds Dr. Strange that is different from the one I grew up with, but I can still recognize the MCU version and he works in that universe.  This one is different, but I'm willing to learn about him.

Chris Nolan did that with Batman.  Nolan's Batman is a different version of Batman from all previous versions.  But he is recognizable as an alternate universe Batman, and he was a version movie audiences wanted to watch and get to know.  In two movies Nolan became the definitive Batman for a lot of movie going audiences.  It can be done if you are patient and craft a character-driven story.

Warner seems unwilling to take the time to do that.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2017, 01:27:47 AM »
Quote
I'm as big of a Batman fanboy as they come, and even I found JL and BvS to be "good, but not as good as [insert Marvel movie here]." I'm not sure what it is, but DC is missing something Marvel got right. Not something minute us nerds will notice like story coherence and direction; the general movie audience doesn't seem to notice such things. Whatever it is, they need to figure it out.

I think one of the big things is that the Marvel Characters are at their core..the characters they have always been.

Compare Superman to Captain America.

They are both paragons of "Truth Justice and the American Way." boy scouts who love Apple Pie and Mom and all of that. Now these days that sort of core theme has become unpopular and "jingoistic xenophobic blah blah blah."

Man of Steel completely drops that at the core of his character, Captain America addresses it directly in the Avengers.

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"The uniform? Aren't the stars and stripes a little... old fashioned?"
"With everything that's happening, the things that are about to come to light, people might just need a little old fashioned."

Arcana

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2017, 03:15:53 AM »
I think one of the big things is that the Marvel Characters are at their core..the characters they have always been.

Compare Superman to Captain America.

They are both paragons of "Truth Justice and the American Way." boy scouts who love Apple Pie and Mom and all of that. Now these days that sort of core theme has become unpopular and "jingoistic xenophobic blah blah blah."

Man of Steel completely drops that at the core of his character, Captain America addresses it directly in the Avengers.

I don't think I see that clearly, because for one thing the Marvel characters themselves are not what they have always been.  They've changed over time in sometimes radical or weird ways.

I also think that for the most part the MCU characters are an invention of the movies where they pick and choose which pieces of comic book history they are going to borrow and which they are going to ignore completely.  The comic book Tony Stark is someone that has always been ruled by fear: fear of dying, fear of having his secret life revealed, fear of losing control of being responsible for the way his technology is used.  Fear is what ultimately fueled his alcoholism.  In the MCU, Tony Stark is a much more confident, less fearful person.  He isn't ruled by fear, and he isn't an out of control person although he often pretends to be.  He is someone ruled by guilt: guilt over his parents death, guilt over Yinsen's death, guilt about how his life of privilege was bought through death and destruction.  He doesn't care if people know he is Iron Man.  He revels in the attention.  But he also believes that everything bad that happens around him is the result of him not being smart enough or industrious enough to prevent it.  I think you can say similar things about the MCU Thor verses the comic books.

Conversely, I think Man of Steel gets hit too unfairly here.  Because this is a form of reimagining of the origin of Superman, the Clark we see in MoS isn't "Superman" yet.  He is still working out his identity, and for the first time confronted with the choice of whether to side with the people of Earth or his own people, and he resolves that conflict by siding with Earth.  There really wasn't time in that movie to focus on the "truth, justice and the American Way" thing.  That should have been (part of) the focus of the second movie, but that movie took a left turn into a major plot morass.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2017, 01:48:42 PM »
! think one of the major the difference between Marvel and DC is that Marvel is making their movies themselves (they took a huge financial risk with Iron Man - if that movie had flopped, that would have been the end of the MCU) and they are making comics into movies by taking all the best stuff from the comics and putting it up on screen.  The Marvel comics characters are loved by their creators and it shows by which ones stand the test of time and connect with readers.  This has made the transition to the movies.

DC's parent company (WB) is making those movies. It might not seem like much, but that one degree of separation makes all the difference in the world. WB is making movies based on the comics.  WB is getting new creatives to use the DC comics as inputs and putting their own spin on things.  I think WB fundamentally doesn't understand why these characters are loved in comics form and they aren't making the transition to the screen.  The DC comics people love the characters, but they've been shut out.  Geoff Johns is now trying to make some changes, but it's going to take time to effect change to what's in the pipeline.  Patty Jenkins obviously loved and understood Wonder Woman and it showed on screen.

The comics don't need an entirely new spin, they need adaptation to a new format and maybe updating because the stories are old (Iron Man can't have been in the Vietnam war and still be in his 30's in 2010).  There's lots of great stories there to mine already with character drama and action that have already been approved by audiences.



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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2017, 06:52:31 PM »
! think one of the major the difference between Marvel and DC is that Marvel is making their movies themselves (they took a huge financial risk with Iron Man - if that movie had flopped, that would have been the end of the MCU) and they are making comics into movies by taking all the best stuff from the comics and putting it up on screen.  The Marvel comics characters are loved by their creators and it shows by which ones stand the test of time and connect with readers.  This has made the transition to the movies.

DC's parent company (WB) is making those movies. It might not seem like much, but that one degree of separation makes all the difference in the world. WB is making movies based on the comics.  WB is getting new creatives to use the DC comics as inputs and putting their own spin on things.  I think WB fundamentally doesn't understand why these characters are loved in comics form and they aren't making the transition to the screen.  The DC comics people love the characters, but they've been shut out.  Geoff Johns is now trying to make some changes, but it's going to take time to effect change to what's in the pipeline.  Patty Jenkins obviously loved and understood Wonder Woman and it showed on screen.

The comics don't need an entirely new spin, they need adaptation to a new format and maybe updating because the stories are old (Iron Man can't have been in the Vietnam war and still be in his 30's in 2010).  There's lots of great stories there to mine already with character drama and action that have already been approved by audiences.

That certainly is a factor - look at how much better the new Spidey film is co-made with Marvel, compared to the last two.

I liked the 3 with McGuire but the ones with Garfield were like meh.


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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2017, 09:40:40 PM »
! think one of the major the difference between Marvel and DC is that Marvel is making their movies themselves (they took a huge financial risk with Iron Man - if that movie had flopped, that would have been the end of the MCU) and they are making comics into movies by taking all the best stuff from the comics and putting it up on screen.  The Marvel comics characters are loved by their creators and it shows by which ones stand the test of time and connect with readers.  This has made the transition to the movies.

DC's parent company (WB) is making those movies. It might not seem like much, but that one degree of separation makes all the difference in the world. WB is making movies based on the comics.  WB is getting new creatives to use the DC comics as inputs and putting their own spin on things.  I think WB fundamentally doesn't understand why these characters are loved in comics form and they aren't making the transition to the screen.  The DC comics people love the characters, but they've been shut out.  Geoff Johns is now trying to make some changes, but it's going to take time to effect change to what's in the pipeline.  Patty Jenkins obviously loved and understood Wonder Woman and it showed on screen.

The comics don't need an entirely new spin, they need adaptation to a new format and maybe updating because the stories are old (Iron Man can't have been in the Vietnam war and still be in his 30's in 2010).  There's lots of great stories there to mine already with character drama and action that have already been approved by audiences.

Ironically, and there have been industry rumors since the beginning, but we now have more direct knowledge of the fact that almost everything good about the Marvel Cinematic Universe comes less from Marvel Comics proper and more from Kevin Feige himself.  It was Feige that wanted to lift elements from the comicdom but make the movies their own thing, and it was Isaac Perlmutter and the Marvel comics people that wanted to drive the movies to be more connected to and driven by the comics more directly.

You hear stories about how Perlmutter tried to strangle Marvel Studios budgets and make them low cost low risk movies.  How the Marvel steering committee wanted to axe Guardians of the Galaxy's sound track.  Most of the "nightmare" stories about working for Marvel/Disney seem to be more related to working with Marvel Comics corporate.  It was bad enough that Disney stepped in and literally ripped Marvel Studios from Marvel Comics.  Marvel Comics now has almost nothing to do with Marvel Studios and zero oversight on the movies.  Marvel Studios is not a direct subsidiary of Disney Studios and Kevin Keige reports directly to Disney Studios president, and not to anyone at Marvel Enterprises.

Marvel movies appear to be good *in spite of* Marvel comics, not because of them.  At least in terms of the corporate powers that be.  What Warners currently lacks is a Kevin Feige to be the point man for the movies, and frankly Zach Snyder isn't it.  I think they are trying to make Geoff Johns that guy, but Warners actually prefers to let their individual movies stand alone without someone else telling the talent what to do.

Marvel movies were originally being made by Marvel itself, but fortunately they had Feige to fight for their independence.  Warners has a history of letting the talent do whatever they wanted and ironically that meant there was no one looking out for the long-term future of the DC movies.  Marvel needed less corporate oversight and Disney freed them from Marvel.  DC needs more corporate oversight but they need a singular vision to manage them and they don't seem to have that figured out yet.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2017, 10:38:54 PM »
If Marvel themselves were in charge we'd have had Iron Man rebooted 4 times by now with the 5th reboot being renumbered as Iron Man 11 (or 3, never can tell with Marvel arithmetic).

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2017, 02:47:54 AM »
If Marvel themselves were in charge we'd have had Iron Man rebooted 4 times by now with the 5th reboot being renumbered as Iron Man 11 (or 3, never can tell with Marvel arithmetic).

Marvel itself was in charge, until mid 2015.  The most obvious public sign of the change was the Inhumans movie.  That went from a phase three movie to a maybe phase four movie to a TV series to an IMAX cofunded marketing stunt in months.  The Inhumans movie was a directive from Marvel president Isaac Perlmutter to feature the Inhumans prominently in the MCU.  As soon as Marvel Entertainment no longer had control over Marvel Studios, Feige wasted no time in kicking that directive to the curb.

Marvel isn't completely crazy.  They are still responsible for and can take credit for the television properties including the Netflix shows.  But they seem to do better with serials and lower budget productions than feature films.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2017, 08:56:23 AM »
That certainly is a factor - look at how much better the new Spidey film is co-made with Marvel, compared to the last two.

I liked the 3 with McGuire but the ones with Garfield were like meh.

Garfield was a far better Spiderman than McGuire..McGuire was a better Parker than Garfield, but both had some gigantic writing issues to deal with.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2017, 06:08:46 PM »
Garfield was a far better Spiderman than McGuire..McGuire was a better Parker than Garfield, but both had some gigantic writing issues to deal with.

I would LOVE to see Marvel tackle an FF film. When the Roger Corman unreleased film is way better then the recent Fox one - its time to let Marvel step in like they did with Homecoming.

I have a soft spot for the two with Evans as Johnny Storm - while not great by any means - I think they are still fun to watch.


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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2017, 03:01:14 PM »
Just finished watching Crisis On Earth-X.

I think the WB-DC film unit should feel ashamed they just their asses handed to them by the TV shows. 

THAT was a better "Justice League" movie than the actual Justice League movie.

Far better.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2017, 07:38:59 PM »
Just finished watching Crisis On Earth-X.

I think the WB-DC film unit should feel ashamed they just their asses handed to them by the TV shows. 

THAT was a better "Justice League" movie than the actual Justice League movie.

Far better.

to quote the Three Stooges - "Soitenly"

And I bet it didn't cost $300 million to make.

They probably would have made more money editing this to like two and a half hours and showing this.

DC has real problems making films these days. I think they are too busy making their heroes 'dark' and 'gritty' and nothing in between.

Marvel has a great balance in their films between the drama, characters, humor, action. Some films lean a little more towards one then the other, but overall they are fun, action packed, character driven films.




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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2017, 09:42:09 PM »
Well, DCTV is made by people who love comics, DC movies aren't.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2017, 12:44:42 AM »
The Titanic's deck-chairs are getting another shuffle after the Justice League disaster - www.variety.com/2017/film/news/dc-films-justice-league-1202632214/
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 01:29:53 AM by Golden Girl »
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2017, 02:18:00 AM »
The Titanic's deck-chairs are getting another shuffle after the Justice League disaster - www.variety.com/2017/film/news/dc-films-justice-league-1202632214/

It sounds like Warner is trying to take some lessons from Disney.  Disney put the movies into the hands of someone familiar with the material and vested in the success of them but *not* beholden to the dictates of the source material.  Kevin Feige likes and understands the comics, but doesn't want the MCU to be a controlled offshoot from them like Marvel Entertainment did.  Warner seems to have gone in two opposite yet similarly unfortunate directions: trying to make them completely independent of DC oversight with Zach Snyder, and then putting them directly into the control of DC with Geoff Johns.  They need to find someone like Feige that loves the material but isn't controlled by the material. 

DC actually did this first with Bruce Timm and the DCAU: someone that loved the material but wasn't owned by the material and could craft something new.  The DCEU needs a Timm or a Feige, someone who believes in the long term future of the franchise rather than just the success of the next movie.  Someone willing to hit singles to load the bases rather than someone who keeps swinging for the fences and whiffing.

Man of Steel, for all its faults, is a decent effort at trying to build something new.  BvS is an attempt to swing for the fences, wasting your one and only chance to incorporate a confrontation between your two biggest marque characters before you've even properly delivered them to your audiences.  And then Justice League tries to swing for the fences again, wasting your one and only chance to unite the JL for the first time before we even know who all the Leaguers are and *while* Superman is dead.  They keep trying to tell punchlines with no set up.

The biggest complaint about Marvel has always been that everything had to be connected and everything had to sell the next thing and nothing had the freedom to be an independent movie and we're all going to get exhausted by all these Marvel movies they think they are going to make year after year after year.  But they believed in the future, and they are getting the rewards for having foresight.

When you consider that they are even *thinking* about making the first solo Flash movie about Flashpoint?  You're going to reset the DCEU before its even been established? I know some are saying it is the perfect opportunity to reboot everything that isn't working well, but once again you are taking a pivotal event in the DC universe and using it as a throw away premise with no build up.  Who cares if the Flash ruins the DCEU when no one cares about the DCEU?

Flashpoint, Tower of Babel, DC has tons of great story ideas to mine.  But they only matter if they sit on a good foundation.  You can do great things with them if you have that foundation.  Or you can throw them into the wind and think people will care about them just because they are important in the comic books.  Like Batman fighting Superman.  One of the most important things to happen in all of comic books in the 80s, and not a particularly interesting thing that happens in BvS.

It sounds commercial and crass, but the difference between Disney and Warner is that to Warner, these are just movies.  Movies that leverage their DC comics intellectual property.  But that's not what they are to Disney.  Disney did not buy Marvel or Lucasfilms or Muppets or Pixar to just make some movies.  To Disney, these are properties that they expect to nurture and commercialize for decades.  Marvel makes a couple movies a year, but Disney intends to make lunchboxes and TV tie ins and theme park rides and LEGO licensed toys for the next hundred years.  Disney is willing to invest not just money but more importantly time to nurture these properties.  Because they don't care how much money Black Panther makes in 2018.  They care how much money the MCU is going to make for them in the entire 21st century.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2017, 05:59:02 AM »
You know what's funny - they marketed JL with the tag line "you can't save the world alone"!!

Ironically, they need two or three decent Superman movies to set the stage for everyone else...

That said, I didn't dislike the movies, but they really aren't on the level they could be - Superman is the most easily identifiable hero in existence - but he's second on the big screen to Batman!?!

(And that doesn't even begin to take into account the gap between Superman's mainstream recognition vs the Marvel lineup, at least up until Marvel started making fun movies.)

Part of the problem with Superman movies is we continually get a rehash of "look, Superman's a nice guy", which makes a boring movie because literally everyone knows that already - it's time they just made a movie about Superman kicking some badguys backside - like an "action" movie maybe...

Then, just sprinkle a bunch of cameos into that movie (or two), to establish a shared universe.

As Arcana says, instead they've all bar wasted what was potentially a great cast with some really odd choices.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2017, 07:34:24 AM »
I had the same opinion I have of all the other recent DC Movies [With the exception of suicide squad because a blind man could tell it was gonna be awful] it was just tooooo damnnnnn boring.

I don't mind boring as long as there is a good plot or dialogue...but...you know...there wasn't

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2017, 09:17:41 PM »
Part of the problem with Superman movies is we continually get a rehash of "look, Superman's a nice guy", which makes a boring movie because literally everyone knows that already - it's time they just made a movie about Superman kicking some badguys backside - like an "action" movie maybe...

I think you want to be true to the fundamental nature of the character, but tell a new story.  That's why I think for all its faults Man of Steel had a really good idea going that they didn't execute as well as they could have, but should not have abandoned so quickly with BvS.  MoS tells the story of how the DCEU's Superman becomes Superman: it is an original origin story, where Superman doesn't just fall into becoming Superman, but instead spends years wandering the world trying to find his place, doing some good along the way but not knowing his true potential.

This idea that the truth, justice, red, white, and blue Superman was something Clark had to learn on his own is an interesting idea.  In MoS, Clark isn't just brought up to be a good guy, he is brought up by a father who is genuinely afraid of how the world will view him, and that creates conflict in Clark who doesn't know if he should hide from the world or use his powers publicly to serve mankind.

This could have set up a very interesting idea in the DCEU: Superman Year One.  How do you reconcile the boy scout good guy with the real world.  Nolan asked that very question in his Dark Knight series and came up with a unique take on the Batman.  In Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy, the Batman is a much more literal invention of Bruce Wayne: a symbol he first creates, then embodies, and then eventually lets go all in the service of helping Gotham City.  In the comics and in other media, Bruce Wayne is shown to be unique in different ways: his dedication, his intelligence, his drive, his monomaniacal focus on his version of justice.  In Nolan's movies, Bruce Wayne is shown to be unique in a kind of George Washington way: he has the ability to assume this enormous power as the Batman, and then he is ultimately willing to give it up when that power is no longer needed.  The Batman becomes what the movies told us all along he would become: a symbol that transcends the man.

The DCEU needs to create its own take on Superman in the same way to make audiences want to know more about him, and care about what happens to him in the movies.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2018, 01:58:41 PM »
So, we live in a timeline where a Jumanji starring THE ROCK...out performed Justice League in the Box Office.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2018, 05:41:31 PM »
Paddington Bear 2 was a better movie then Justice League.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2018, 05:42:32 PM »
So, we live in a timeline where a Jumanji starring THE ROCK...out performed Justice League in the Box Office.

To be fair, it *was* starring THE ROCK.  And it looked pretty fun in the trailers.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2018, 06:33:55 PM »
To be fair, it *was* starring THE ROCK.  And it looked pretty fun in the trailers.

Well that may bode well for the Black Adam film.

I love the Rock. Started out in the WWF as Rocky Maivia and every one HATED him. And not hated him like a heel - hated him.

Eventually when he turned heel and started just being "The Rock" - the fans took to him.

Wrestlers are actors - some a lot better then others. And he just has a gift. And I understand in real life he is a super nice guy to boot.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2018, 12:57:34 AM »
Well that may bode well for the Black Adam film.

I love the Rock. Started out in the WWF as Rocky Maivia and every one HATED him. And not hated him like a heel - hated him.

Eventually when he turned heel and started just being "The Rock" - the fans took to him.

Wrestlers are actors - some a lot better then others. And he just has a gift. And I understand in real life he is a super nice guy to boot.

I am not saying that The Rock is a bad actor, not by a long shot (I actually remember the exact moment "THE ROCK" as a character was created), he has just been in some really poor movies, if Ten Years ago I said "A Jumanji reboot with The Rock in it will out perform Justice League." I would have gotten laughed out of town :P

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2018, 02:33:52 PM »
Paddington Bear 2 was a better movie then Justice League.

Crisis on Earth X was a better Justice League movie than the Justice League movie...

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2018, 03:07:11 PM »
I am not saying that The Rock is a bad actor, not by a long shot (I actually remember the exact moment "THE ROCK" as a character was created), he has just been in some really poor movies, if Ten Years ago I said "A Jumanji reboot with The Rock in it will out perform Justice League." I would have gotten laughed out of town :P

He's also been in some really good movies.  But, not many...




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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2018, 03:47:57 PM »
He's also been in some really good movies.  But, not many...

Certainly more the Hulk Hogan. Roddy Piper should have had a much better movie career then he did. He was a great actor and a funny guy as well.


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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #75 on: March 17, 2018, 02:06:26 AM »
I've finally seen this movie, and it does feel ... impatient. It does jump along to things too quickly, imo. They do lose opportunities to do character development, and without it, each of the new team members feels flat and uninteresting -- they are just collections of their spoken lines. The potential seems to be there for them, but the film doesn't explore it.

The movie seems not to fit together well to me, but I can't put my finger on the details. Generally, it's the color, the action, the timing, the effects; there's moments, but they don't rise very far. The previews show the scenes better than the movie does, such as the early scene with Wonder Woman spoiling the bomb attack at the bank.

The plot was too simple. If BvS was too complicated, and the editing dropped too much of it for most audiences to follow, this one was too simple. There could have been dramatic build-up, but instead, it's boom! and the big bad is all over the screen. There's too much action in it, and not enough storytelling. I don't get the storytelling such as it is, either; as was mentioned up-thread, this was their one and only chance to put the team together, and it was not very interesting. A few minutes' worth of previews told it better, again.

To me, not being a comics expert, the real draw of any movie is the story and character development. No movie without it can succeed, and no movie with it can fail. Good stories let me overlook terrible vfx and camera shooting. Bad storytelling can't be saved by anything else. One story I've looked for all these movies to tell is why is Superman such a good person? The first movie touched in it here and there, but it could have been the centerpiece of the plot. They've had three movies to explain that to me, and I still don't see a compelling reason for it.

I'm sure they'll make more movies just out of momentum, but I'm afraid they're going to go like the Batman movies back in the '90's did.

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2018, 04:42:45 PM »
The new Infinity War trailer highlights just how hopelessly incompetent WB's handling of the DC IP has been - and going to be an amusingly suitable punishment for them that if Darkseid ever shows up in a movie, the majority of the audience are going to think that he's a rip-off of Thanos.
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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2018, 04:52:46 PM »
I've reached the point that I'm watching Marvel trailers to see how good the movies are going to be and watching DC trailers to see how bad the movies are going to be.  I'm sure I'm not alone in that position.


doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2018, 11:29:39 PM »
The new Infinity War trailer highlights just how hopelessly incompetent WB's handling of the DC IP has been - and going to be an amusingly suitable punishment for them that if Darkseid ever shows up in a movie, the majority of the audience are going to think that he's a rip-off of Thanos.

The major thing I think Marvel does right is that these feel like real people who just happen to have super powers. (Which was Stan Lee's idea with the FF and Spider-man and others when he created them)

DC is like playing Mortal Kombat - all big fights and effects but no real characterization.


hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2018, 01:33:05 PM »
You know what's funny - they marketed JL with the tag line "you can't save the world alone"!!

Ironically, they need two or three decent Superman movies to set the stage for everyone else...

Part of the problem with Superman movies is we continually get a rehash of "look, Superman's a nice guy", which makes a boring movie because literally everyone knows that already - it's time they just made a movie about Superman kicking some badguys backside - like an "action" movie maybe...


I think even more of a problem with Superman on the big screen, and to some extent TV, is that they continually make him WAY too powerful for anything to be even a remote threat to him.  That's why the Man of Steel movie had to start with the first villains Superman faces are the exiled Kryptonians (which kinda ruins the whole Superman as last Kryptonian thing, doesn't it?)

 Just like Justice League and Flashpoint, that is a story that needs built to, not to open with.

Byrne had the right idea in the comics when he relaunched Superman in the 80's... Tone down the powers to a more reasonable level, where the climax to the film doesn't have to be Superman literally stopping an earthquake! 

 

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2018, 01:36:57 PM »
I think even more of a problem with Superman on the big screen, and to some extent TV, is that they continually make him WAY too powerful for anything to be even a remote threat to him.  That's why the Man of Steel movie had to start with the first villains Superman faces are the exiled Kryptonians (which kinda ruins the whole Superman as last Kryptonian thing, doesn't it?)

 Just like Justice League and Flashpoint, that is a story that needs built to, not to open with.

Byrne had the right idea in the comics when he relaunched Superman in the 80's... Tone down the powers to a more reasonable level, where the climax to the film doesn't have to be Superman literally stopping an earthquake!

Yeah well there was one Superboy story from the 50's where he held the Earth upside down over his head!

Or a Superman (or Superboy) story where he pushed the Earth out of orbit and then put it back.

In the 70's there was that whole sand creature arc that took like half his power, but after a while he was back to blowing out stars with his super breath.


CG

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
Superman stories need to be about things where he can't necessarily solve everything by punching it.

One of the Superman video games in the past was where he was literally invincible (could take no damage) but his health track was how much damage the city had taken.  You had to save the city.

Ignoring the golden/silver age Superman where they invented new powers weekly, there are things he can't do.  He can't cure disease, he can't create peace (only stop war - which while useful, isn't self -sustaining), he has friends and loved ones to protect, he's not a killer and follows the laws (which means that he can't just kill Luthor - only stop his plans).

There are a lot of great superman stories out there, but they are usually best when he's not punching things to resolve. 

Superman is very different from other characters because of his immense power.  An easy way to provide a challenge to another character is to give them something more powerful (Like Bane for Batman) but that becomes absurd for Superman.  Instead you get better villains where they're not stronger, but providing challenges that Superman can't (or won't) resolve with punching.  Lex Luthor is an awesome villain in that regard.  Lex is a perfect villain in that he's much smarter than Superman which is orthogonal to Superman's physical power.  This creates stories where Lex is doing a million little things that achieve his goals where Superman can't find and stop all million problems.  Usually Superman stops enough, but it never resorts to punching Lex.

Writer just need to be more creative when writing Superman.  His real superpower is he's a good man.  Use that to defeat the bad guys.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2018, 02:51:08 PM »
Superman stories need to be about things where he can't necessarily solve everything by punching it.

One of the Superman video games in the past was where he was literally invincible (could take no damage) but his health track was how much damage the city had taken.  You had to save the city.

Ignoring the golden/silver age Superman where they invented new powers weekly, there are things he can't do.  He can't cure disease, he can't create peace (only stop war - which while useful, isn't self -sustaining), he has friends and loved ones to protect, he's not a killer and follows the laws (which means that he can't just kill Luthor - only stop his plans).

There are a lot of great superman stories out there, but they are usually best when he's not punching things to resolve. 

Superman is very different from other characters because of his immense power.  An easy way to provide a challenge to another character is to give them something more powerful (Like Bane for Batman) but that becomes absurd for Superman.  Instead you get better villains where they're not stronger, but providing challenges that Superman can't (or won't) resolve with punching.  Lex Luthor is an awesome villain in that regard.  Lex is a perfect villain in that he's much smarter than Superman which is orthogonal to Superman's physical power.  This creates stories where Lex is doing a million little things that achieve his goals where Superman can't find and stop all million problems.  Usually Superman stops enough, but it never resorts to punching Lex.

Writer just need to be more creative when writing Superman.  His real superpower is he's a good man.  Use that to defeat the bad guys.

And let's not forget Superboy Prime literally punching reality.


Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2018, 06:54:25 PM »
And let's not forget Superboy Prime literally punching reality.

If only we could.

saipaman

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2018, 05:26:29 AM »
I'd say the very best type of Superman story is one that relates how Superman inspires other people.   On his own, Superman is just plain out and out boring.

Tenzhi

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2018, 05:42:23 AM »
I'd say the very best type of Superman story is one that relates how Superman inspires other people.   On his own, Superman is just plain out and out boring.

And let's face it: the last time he inspired anyone was when he was dead.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2018, 08:10:31 PM »
I finally got to see this and I like it a lot.

Its no Avengers, but it has its moments.

Affleck makes a very good Batman IMO. ("I bought the bank.")

I didn't think I would like the Flash since I love the TV show, but this guy was really good. Probably one of the best things in it.

And Aquaman was good too. I am actually looking forward to the solo films now.

But the problem is with Superman. He shows how useless the others are since he is so damn powerful.





hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2018, 01:31:01 PM »
But the problem is with Superman. He shows how useless the others are since he is so damn powerful.

Yep.  And the movie Superman never should have been that.  They should have brought the "Byrne" Superman to the screen.


CG

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2018, 02:24:38 PM »
Yep.  And the movie Superman never should have been that.  They should have brought the "Byrne" Superman to the screen.
Even the Byrne Superman is ridiculously powerful.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2018, 03:28:53 PM »
I do wonder how Barry got his powers though.

He wasn't working in the crime lab as he had just gotten the job at the end, so I guess he didn't get dosed with chemicals. At least not there.

And did I not hear Lois yell "Clark" when he was fighting the JLA, right in front of at least two cops?

Reminds me of the last 1990 Flash episode with the Trickster when during the 'trial' she yelled "Barry" right in front of the Trickster.

And as for Clark - he and Superman died on the same day. So did a lot of other civilians so not a big connection there.

But Superman comes back from the dead, and so does Clark. After they even show his funeral and being buried in front of people.

So how they can explain that away as at the end he is obviously Clark going back to work. (In the comics they have done it a 100 times so I guess they can work it out)

 

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2018, 01:50:00 PM »
Even the Byrne Superman is ridiculously powerful.

But he wasn't juggling planets.   :o


CG

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2018, 07:53:47 PM »
But he wasn't juggling planets.   :o
Admittedly, I have not seem the movie, but does Superman juggle planets in it?

Is there something in the movie that makes you think he's much more powerful than Byrne's Superman?

Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2018, 08:22:48 PM »
He had to stop juggling them because one of the planets was named Martha.

doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2018, 09:11:35 PM »
He had to stop juggling them because one of the planets was named Martha.

Oh Snap.



hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2018, 01:35:27 PM »
Admittedly, I have not seem the movie, but does Superman juggle planets in it?

Is there something in the movie that makes you think he's much more powerful than Byrne's Superman?

The complete and utter destruction of Metropolis for one.  Superman II was better, the Kryptonian fight caused damage, but he wasn't exploding buildings with his heat vision like in the Man Of Steel. 

I thought he was WAY over-powered (for a film version) in Man Of Steel (and BvS and Justice League)