Author Topic: Coming Soon  (Read 210050 times)

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #440 on: July 02, 2015, 03:43:26 AM »
True enough.

Its very easy to find yourself trapped by a false dilemma.  You can believe in yourself, in which case you have to believe your judgment is always correct, or you don't, in which case everything is pointless.  The middle ground, that you believe you can always learn what's necessary, but you might not know it now, and you might need to go through many intermediate steps to get to where you want to go, is an incredibly frightening proposition in many complex ways.  Even people who acknowledge this fact on an intellectual level can fall prey to its grasp in ways they cannot find a way to escape from.  Its just sometimes more obvious than others.

The truth is that most people believe if they understand the words, they understand the concepts.  That you can get from A to Z directly, if only you learn the language of Z.  And the sad fact is many people go from cradle to grave believing this fallacy.  This is why most home improvement projects go awry, why everyone thinks they understand the law even though law school is one of the harder academic institutions, why players who were computer science majors were the worst City of Heroes players when it came to figuring out how the game worked.  Computer science students knew the language of software - not programming syntax, but the language programmers use to talk to each other about software - so they automatically thought they knew how all software was written, including MMOs.  I have so many computer science students' heads on my wall they block out the windows.  But they were so (cock-)sure, so insistent, so unwilling to concede that everything they knew was wrong.  The notion that everything they were spoon-fed might be completely worthless to attacking this problem?  Too scary to admit, ever.  They could have tried to learn, but that would require admitting what they couldn't admit.  So they went down fighting instead.  And walked away from an opportunity to learn something new.

There are people watching us chat about card decks and LISP machines, and believe the conversation is the thing.  What they don't know, and can't know, is that 90% of this conversation is happening outside of the words.  Its happening in the things our words are evoking, like when I give FFM PTSD flashbacks about writing Clipper code.  I know what that was like, he apparently knows what that was like, we're sharing a war story in which all of the casualties are unmentioned.  The words are not the thing.  The words are shorthand for the thing.

This is something else I often talked about on the forums, that because the words are not the thing, when the words don't evoke the right thing, alarm bells go off.  Take Codewalker's insane bot proposal:

My bot is a Haskell program than generates Modula-3 code, which is JIT compiled by a Lisp program and executed on a Z-80 emulator, which is implemented as a redstone machine in Minecraft.

That's not just random computer languages strung together.  All of that properly evokes the right things to me, and probably to most experienced veteran programmers.  Haskell is a functional language that is both tricky to learn, and has a history of doing very powerful things in specific problem spaces, like code generation.  Its logical that a Haskell program would be generating Modula-3 code, but a sign of someone spewing randomness if it was the other way around (besides: who else writes Modula-3 besides bots?).  Of course LISP is going to compile Modula-3, and not the other way around.  This is a joke that works on two levels, the informal one (this is ridiculous, look at all the unnecessary layers) and also some inside ball (its ludicrous, and yet I can imagine someone doing that just to melt people's brains).  But that second level only works if you are an experienced programmer or computer engineer, no amount of knowing the language and navigating wikipedia is going to communicate the joke.  And without that experience, you can't easily construct the joke either.  If he had said this instead:

My bot is a LISP program running in a redstone machine in Minecraft, which is written in Modula-3 and running on a Z-80 emulator implemented in Haskell

I would have wondered if someone hacked his PC or he was powering his push to release Paragon Chat with tequila.  There's nothing technically wrong about that version of the joke, and yet there's everything wrong.  On the informal level, its the same joke.  On the deeper level, its a cry for help.

Again: there's nothing wrong if you can't see the difference between those two jokes.  There's nothing wrong with not knowing everything everyone else knows.  The problem comes when you claim to know, but don't actually know.  Because those two jokes are why its impossible to pretend for long.  Soon enough, everyone will know.  Little things which are actually big things will give the game away.  You won't know what they are, you'll strongly deny what they mean, but everyone will know.

And what's the point of pretending, when you could be learning instead?

Besides which, if I was Codewalker, I would have gone all the way with that bot:

My bot is a Haskell program than generates Modula-3 code, which is JIT compiled by a Lisp program into Redcode and executed on a MARS vm running in a Z-80 emulator, which is implemented as a redstone machine in Minecraft.

Damn skippy.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #441 on: July 02, 2015, 03:53:19 AM »
There's nothing wrong with speaking, and certainly nothing wrong with arguing with me.  People do it all the time.  The one thing you can't do, is put on airs.  Its not that I'm particularly good at spotting it, lots of people are.  But where some will ignore it and others will berate it, I will tend to dissect it into little pieces and put it on display in labelled jars.

If you want to argue with me because you think I'm wrong, and you want the truth to come out in public discussion, have at it.  Win or lose, you'll get what you want.  If you want to debate me because you want people to see your mad debate skills in action, or you think random words will stick to my posts and sound more logical, I'm afraid I'm less cooperative in those circumstances.  I'm gracious in victory and gracious in defeat but I hate intellectual dishonesty and enjoy setting it on fire.

Not precisely relevant, but I'm reminded of one of my favorite movie dialog scenes, and I never run out of excuses to reference it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PkOc-B64dY

Basically, Arcana, having run out of F***S when it comes to wannabe self-taught "programmers" ever attracted to the New Shiny and refusing to acknowledge that with all your decades of experience you might have something to teach them, you cut straight to the chase, leave them dangling by a thread over a chasm of their own making.

Kinda like I tell people when they ask me to critique their writing.  "I can be kind, and tell you nice things, or I can give you a professional critique and leaving you flayed and bleeding.  I can't do both."
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #442 on: July 02, 2015, 04:21:35 AM »
Kinda like I tell people when they ask me to critique their writing.  "I can be kind, and tell you nice things, or I can give you a professional critique and leaving you flayed and bleeding.  I can't do both."

Like I told you when I asked for your opinion a while back, why would I ask a professional writer to give me an opinion my neighbor's dog could give me?  That seems like such a waste of an opportunity.  If I wanted a professional writer to give me an unthinkingly warm feeling about my writing, I would have asked you to set it on fire.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #443 on: July 02, 2015, 04:32:48 AM »
Like I told you when I asked for your opinion a while back, why would I ask a professional writer to give me an opinion my neighbor's dog could give me?  That seems like such a waste of an opportunity.  If I wanted a professional writer to give me an unthinkingly warm feeling about my writing, I would have asked you to set it on fire.

LOL.

I don't dare ask her to read my Fan Fiction.  I know that it is full of holes and mistakes and etc.

Golden Aurora

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #444 on: July 02, 2015, 04:52:41 AM »
That was a rather interesting post up above (the long one), Arcana. I actually gave that two reads before deciding on writing this. The portion relating to others not seeing the complexities involved in undertakings and in knowing their own lack of understanding was rather profound. A great way to paraphrase would be to state 'The devil is in the details'. It's a reason when I get asked for Level of Effort estimates on projects I always get wary. There's my gut feeling, then what my mind tells me should be the appropriate time and cost, and ultimately my final response which usually is some multiple of second item.

The other part which made me start to think was that 90% of the conversation was outside of the words. That says to me that you (and others) are intending to be more stimulating thought than necessarily attempting to convey a point. While that may be a coder specific example, I'd admit to not having got that joke of Codewalkers. It was enough outside of my field of experience that it might was well be Star Trek technobabble.

Anyways, having the joke broke down like that made me realize just how differently you and him must see things in comparison to myself and others.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #445 on: July 02, 2015, 05:00:29 AM »
LOL.

I don't dare ask her to read my Fan Fiction.  I know that it is full of holes and mistakes and etc.

Best way to learn to write well is to get someone to rip it to shreds.

You'll either learn, or go sob into a beer! ;)

Golden Aurora

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #446 on: July 02, 2015, 05:08:45 AM »
The two options aren't mutually exclusive you know.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #447 on: July 02, 2015, 05:09:36 AM »
Anyways, having the joke broke down like that made me realize just how differently you and him must see things in comparison to myself and others.

Don't think of it as we seeing things differently from you.  Think of it as everyone seeing things differently based on their life experience.  Think about what people who did not play City of Heroes would think about half our conversations.  Think about what someone who wasn't following the "New Efforts" Hail Mary thread all this time must think when they jump into the middle of it.

The general point is you can't fake life experience, nor should you want to.  Think of all the things we could talk about in short hand about playing City of Heroes, that someone else couldn't really understand.  Now, if the game was still running, wouldn't it be better to play the game than pretend you played the game just to participate in that conversation?  Why would you cheat yourself of that experience?  If I said this thread was like Pocket D, and we're all waiting to jump into a Lambda, you might know what I'm talking about.  If you do (assuming you did Incarnate trials and were on a server that congregated in Pocket D to launch them at one time) I don't need to explain all the nuance in that comment.  That's just you and me sharing a life experience.  And you can't parse it from the text, nor can you easily replicate it by google searching.

That's the point.  Not that programmers are special people.  Rather, thinking about it and reading about it is not the same thing as doing it.  We were there.  We can teach others what it was like when we were there.  But until the game comes back, they will never have been there.  Even if it does come back, they will never have been there then.  Thinking about it doesn't substitute for having done it.

Golden Aurora

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #448 on: July 02, 2015, 05:20:21 AM »
In some ways this feels more like the first generation BAF runs where the effort is valiant though half baked, with a couple respawns at the hospital. Eventually things start coming around and progressing in picking up steam. I remember when BAF first came out just how much I got stomped on. Didn't all the IDF mobs get a tohit bonus or something that ate alive most def based builds like shield? I remember needing more def and respeccing. Fun times.

I can't decide if I feel guilty or not about checking these forums multiple times a day over lunch while at work. Just that inkling of hope that some small part of what I loved is returning.

I was on virtue heroside, so we had a fairly large collection of people arranging the iTrials. Not as large as freedom, naturally, but we liked to pretend we were the more literate server. What did they used to call it, Freedumb right? I wasn't the one who made that up either. Sorry to derail the topic!

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #449 on: July 02, 2015, 05:28:48 AM »
Best way to learn to write well is to get someone to rip it to shreds.
You'll either learn, or go sob into a beer! ;)

So true, but fan fiction is, well slop, for the most part, I mean my is.  Anyway, I write to crack me up, which I usually do.  Fragile ego about "Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series, I do not possess.  As a matter of fact, you can reply to the forum topic and say, "... and Bob's your uncle."
(I like using that as a epitah.)


Golden Aurora

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #450 on: July 02, 2015, 05:35:58 AM »
Some fanfics completely deserve the notoriety they get, as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Codewalker

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #451 on: July 02, 2015, 05:36:34 AM »
My bot is a Haskell program than generates Modula-3 code, which is JIT compiled by a Lisp program into Redcode and executed on a MARS vm running in a Z-80 emulator, which is implemented as a redstone machine in Minecraft.

Damn skippy.

Yeah, but then I'd have to deal with some punk DAT bomber constantly trying to crash my bot.

Hmmm, we should do a corewars tournament sometime. Maybe a Titan forumite showdown in between PC releases...

Aggelakis

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #452 on: July 02, 2015, 05:56:12 AM »
Some fanfics completely deserve the notoriety they get, as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
And some fanfics get published.
--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_%28series%29

And some fanfic of fanfics get published.
--> --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_of_Grey
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


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Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #453 on: July 02, 2015, 05:59:15 AM »
Didn't all the IDF mobs get a tohit bonus or something that ate alive most def based builds like shield? I remember needing more def and respeccing. Fun times.

Some Praetorian mobs had base 64% tohit, the equivalent of running around with +14% tohit buffs all the time.  And they were high level so they hit more often because of that as well.

Quote
Sorry to derail the topic!

Which one?

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #454 on: July 02, 2015, 06:01:31 AM »
Hmmm, we should do a code-wars tournament sometime. Maybe a Titan forumite showdown in between PC releases...

My Bot can destory your bot 'cause my bot get kenl-ration, my bot is better than yours.  lol.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #455 on: July 02, 2015, 06:03:17 AM »
I wonder which one of my characters is a Mary Sue.
Probably The Tattered Avenger.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #456 on: July 02, 2015, 06:04:26 AM »
Hmmm, we should do a corewars tournament sometime. Maybe a Titan forumite showdown in between PC releases...

With you writing assembly for the past year and me running last decade's python?  Why not.  People would pay Titan's network bills for the next ten years to see me get my ass kicked in a test of technical skill.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #457 on: July 02, 2015, 06:09:04 AM »
And some fanfics get published.
--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_%28series%29

And some fanfic of fanfics get published.
--> --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_of_Grey

Aggelakis wants to see the 'Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series published.
Thanks, Ag.

That's 1, ok 2 with me.


Golden Aurora

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #458 on: July 02, 2015, 06:10:02 AM »
With you writing assembly for the past year and me running last decade's python?  Why not.  People would pay Titan's network bills for the next ten years to see me get my ass kicked in a test of technical skill.

Sounds like a perfectly valid kickstarter... Might even be a project which meets its stated goals.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #459 on: July 02, 2015, 06:18:09 AM »
Ok, VV, if you aren't too busy, please rip my "Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series of fan fiction to shreds.
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,159.0.html

There, are you happy now?

« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 06:51:01 AM by Paragon Avenger »