Coming Soon

[Rotten Luck]

Paragon City I felt more HOME there then any game ever and never found after.  Code Walker and the rest of those working on this.  I'm shedding tears of hope. 

[SuburbanHell]

Check your sound settings? I get the various sub-zone musics in Icon when I enter them...

Thanks for the tip, I stand corrected, they are there -- for some reason my music volume was at 10%.

[Reaper]

[FloatingFatMan]

Thanks for the tip, I stand corrected, they are there -- for some reason my music volume was at 10%.

So, just how hard did you slap your forehead?

[tripthicket]

Have just (supposedly carefully) reread this entire thread, looking for some kind of answer to my own particular concern. I think Arcana addressed it in some fashion, but I'd like to ask for as straightforward an answer as can be given. Please do realize I'm not trying to put anyone 'on the spot,' but given our initial heartbreak, all the waiting since, and the negotiations having gone on for so long with no end in sight and no word on progress on that front possible...(ask your question already!)

Baldly, how legal is this? Obviously, you all wouldn't have worked on this for so long and then publicly announced it like this if you thought or knew you were doing something wrong. I'm asking because, if nothing else, we'll be using City of Heroes costumes and maps. Though we already do this in Icon, this would seem to take things further towards crossing the line, although I admit I'm fuzzy on what or where the line is.

Let me restate my question. Many of us have hard and/or hurt feelings where NCSoft is concerned. What's to keep NCSoft from swooping in and shutting this latest operation down?

I'm as excited about this new development as anyone, but I'm just afraid of having this snatched away from us or never having it materialize in the first place. I'm excited, and yet very wary, and it's because I don't really understand how this will be allowed. Not accusing anyone of any wrongdoing, mostly because I do believe no wrongdoing is happening, but I'm asking because I don't quite get it.

[TonyV]

This looks neat. Seems pretty promising now that I actually got over my fear of forums and decided to read this thread. lol

Can I just take a second here to say welcome, and we're glad you finally made it?

[FloatingFatMan]

Let me restate my question. Many of us have hard and/or hurt feelings where NCSoft is concerned. What's to keep NCSoft from swooping in and shutting this latest operation down?

As long as all the code used is the work of Codewalker and his team, and nothing is taken from the game code at all, NCSoft don't have a leg to stand on, legally.

[SuburbanHell]

I suppose a bigger question is, if NCSoft caught wind of this, would it be problematic for the team that is still in negotiations with them?

[tripthicket]

As long as all the code used is the work of Codewalker and his team, and nothing is taken from the game code at all, NCSoft don't have a leg to stand on, legally.

And this is true despite using City of Heroes IP stuff? I ask because I understand a large part of the ongoing negotiations with NCSoft is about acquiring the City of Heroes IP for us to use as we see fit.

[FloatingFatMan]

And this is true despite using City of Heroes IP stuff? I ask because I understand a large part of the ongoing negotiations with NCSoft is about acquiring the City of Heroes IP for us to use as we see fit.

But they're not, not in their own code.  It's just enabling something else to function by emulating a server.  No actual use of their IP is involved, as far as I know.

That's how it went with Icon anyway, and can only presume the same applies here. Codewalker isn't the sort to forget that kind of detail, so I wouldn't worry. He's already commented that NCSoft can't touch this.

[FloatingFatMan]

I suppose a bigger question is, if NCSoft caught wind of this, would it be problematic for the team that is still in negotiations with them?

Negotiations? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Yeah, right... Because they ever had any serious intentions of selling...

[NeutronStar]

Wow... first time in over two years that I come back, and I see this...

F'ING AWESOME!!!

Sorry, got carried away there.

My questions are Costume Functionality, and Character Slots. As in, what will be available, and how many slots? Might have to jury-rig a few things, I'm thinking, which is no big deal to me.

[MWRuger]

I would say that it is just about as  legal as Icon is. NCSoft hasn't objected to that as far as I know.

You have to think about what this is. It is using the client, but not the server in any fashion. It is (if I am understanding what I am reading) using a complete third party chat program with some clever programming to pass information to and from a chat server (not a game server). It is not using any more of the code than Icon did.

Further, future developments are likely to hinge on how much data can be passed before the server starts to bog down. I imagine that every time someone joins all the information about their character has to be passes to every connected client. If someone does an emote that has to passes. There is also a question of how lag could be handled. It is possible that someone could trigger an emote and by the time you react to they may no longer be there. These are just a few things I can think of and I'm not a tech guru.

This is still an amazing achievement and very welcome. Just be aware of what it is and isn't.

I suspect that this will replace Icon (which manipulates the local client) with another entire program Soon (which will manipulate the local client). Also, it isn't explicitly stated (or I missed it) but it may or may not have all the capabilities of Icon. I seem to recall Codewalker saying that travel is limited to run, which means that flight, available in Icon, may not be in Soon. The free floating camera may or may not be there. We will just have to wait upon the FAQ and the release of Soon.

[Leandro]

It's more legal than Icon is. Icon is modifying the cityofheroes executable in memory. This new project uses the network communication that the client itself offers. If you run the game with cityofheroes -db 127.0.0.1 you're asking it to connect to a server on your own computer, and it'll happily do that -- no alterations necessary. It's using functionality that exists in the unmodified client.

The magic happens in a translation layer (the "server" that the client connects to) that reads all the messages from the COH format and converts them to XMPP messages. This is the same thing as having a converter to turn JPEG files into PNGs, or converting a DOC file to a PDF. Conversion tools exist for a massive amount of formats and are 100% legal.

The messages are then sent to an XMPP server, and this is crucial: the XMPP server it's an off-the-shelf generic server with no COH code or data in it. XMPP is generally used as a chat program, but it will also pass data that the clients request be passed without touching it -- and the translating layer sends all the COH-relevant data that way.

So, the server component is 100% legal. You don't need to connect to Titan's own XMPP server, any XMPP server that supports the relevant extensions will work. You can, for example, connect using your Google account, see all your Google contacts as global friends, and chat with them from the game. If NC wants to argue that Google's server is infringing their rights... I'll just get the popcorn.

[tripthicket]

Thanks, Leandro, for clearing this up for me. I don't want to be the guy who keeps saying "Yeah, but...yeah, but...," so I'll just state that my understanding now is that if Icon isn't an illegal use of the City of Heroes IP, then this isn't either. I will now allow myself to be excited about this without reservation. Thanks very much to all those who have worked long and hard on this from no other motivation than love of the game and the desire to go home. 

[lapucelle]

This is a fantastic thing and I applaud every legal moment of this.

Hey, maybe I'll do a meet and greet, if Legal approves.

[Codewalker]

My questions are Costume Functionality, and Character Slots. As in, what will be available, and how many slots? Might have to jury-rig a few things, I'm thinking, which is no big deal to me.

48 slots per "account". And you can create as many "accounts" as you want just by typing a different name on the login screen once the game loads. The only hard part is remembering which characters are under which name.

I put "account" in quotes because character data is all saved on your local computer and is not tied in any way to the chat server you connect to for multiplayer functionality.

[FloatingFatMan]

Seeing as CW asked us all to wait on questions until he released the FAQ, I'm withdrawing mine, for now.

[Ohioknight]

Thanks, Leandro, for clearing this up for me. I don't want to be the guy who keeps saying "Yeah, but...yeah, but...," so I'll just state that my understanding now is that if Icon isn't an illegal use of the City of Heroes IP, then this isn't either. I will now allow myself to be excited about this without reservation. Thanks very much to all those who have worked long and hard on this from no other motivation than love of the game and the desire to go home. 

I think NCSoft might object to YOU individually running the client in connection to this -- they could always send any individual participant a C&D letter or file some kind of legal action... I'm pretty sure they would lose if it came to a full court case, but they could always bankrupt an individual with legal BS costs to force a settlement.

[AmberOfDzu]

Another question: How do you all expect this to scale? Have you tested with many simultaneous connected users? Does the load on the XMPP server scale linearly or super-linearly? How about the load on the clients? Is there a chat-lag effect that can occur?

And one more, only loosely related to the above; is there any collision detection (Iirc, the mapserver used to handle this? I'm not sure now, it's been too long for me) or will characters be able to merge/'over-print' visually?