Idea to bring back the game.. Somewhat

[ZoeyLovecraft90]

Ok so I really haven't been keeping up with the "successor projects" lately because frankly I don't have much faith in them. Plus I don't really want to play them because I want to play COH.
That aside last year my friends wanted me to check out an emulator being made for Star Wars Galaxies. I played and the game was ok. But it got me thinking about City of Heroes. Mostly it frustrated me that no one has done something like this for the game yet. Star Wars Galaxies shut down in 2010 and people are still playing it. They have a private server that a TON of people play on. And from what I hear the people running it and creating it were just players who knew a lot about how to reverse engineer code and all that fancy stuff.

My point. Three years after our shutdown we still can't get some sort of private server running or anything.
Why?
I do not know that much about how to do that sort of thing but I would bet that someone in our community does.

[Blackout]

A few reasons, firstly no one really has the game code anymore (other than NCsoft of course) from what I understand. Additionally, if a private server or some kind of emulated version did arise NCsoft would immediately sue it into oblivion

[Inc42]

This was something that was looked into heavily at shutdown, and I can guarantee you that if it was possible it would have been done by the time the shut down occurred. This wasn't a new idea back then, especially because it was pulled off recently at the time for Galaxies, but plenty of other games have done the same thing. As Blackout said, the problem is the code. For Galaxies people were able to get the code by some means, but CoH no one had it. The only choices were to get NCsoft to relaunch the game, or to rebuild it from the ground up (like APR is trying to do).

[HeatSpike1]

You know, the more time that passes the less I care about CoT and VO.  I wish them all the luck, but I'm interested in playing CoH or at least as close to CoH as possible.  Those two projects want to make a name for themselves and go in a different direction.  I hope that Downes can pull off a deal with NCSoft to get us CoH back. That's really the only thing I'm interested in

[Inc42]

Considering that both games are being made by fans of CoH, I would not totally write them off yet. I have faith that the heart of the game will be there, and a lot of the features that made CoH stand out from a sea of WoW clones will be at least considered.

No, they will not be a perfect copy, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. CoH was not perfect, far from it. A lot of the things that players wanted kept requiring complete overhauls of how the game was originally made because it was not designed to have things like room for power customization to be added in the future (which is why it took so long to get it). A lot of things like SGs and bases could have worked a lot better. Entire zones could have been completely removed from the game and the only question anyone would have asked would have been "what about the exploration badges".

Entire sections of the game were barely used at all because the vast majority of the player base did not care for them, like PVP. The Rogue Isles became far less used once Going Rogue allowed us to cross villains over to hero side or go through Praetoria on new characters to have a heroic villain AT, and Praetoria became a ghost town once Freedom allowed us to just make whatever AT on whichever alignment we wanted. You will hear plenty of individuals speak out for CoV and Praetoria and how they still enjoyed using those areas, including me, but there were many times where I would check how many people were in the zones and see only myself or maybe 1 or 2 others.

What we, the players, remember about the game is all the fun that we had with it, however if you look at it from a game development standpoint imagine how much money and time went into things that people just stopped using. Yes, I can see room for improvement.

[houtex]

Regarding the example, Star Wars Galaxies, here's the info from the SWGEmu project itself (http://www.swgemu.com/forums/content.php?r=173)

Q. Has SWGEmu ever seen Sony Online Entertainment's code?
 
A. Absolutely not. In fact, Sony Online Entertainment persists that they have lost the code entirely. Not only does this make it impossible for SWGEmu to utilize the code as reference if Sony Online Entertainment was kind enough to grant permission to do so, but it makes it impossible for Sony Online Entertainment to release classic Pre-CU servers to rival what SWGEmu aims to accomplish.
 
Q. How does SWGEmu develop the software without Sony Online Entertainment's code?
 
A. SWGEmu's software is written through a process known as Reverse Engineering. By applying the Scientific Method, SWGEmu's developers observe game-play, and then attempt to recreate it's experience through programming.
 
Q. What about the application I install from the discs I purchased from Sony Online Entertainment?
 
A. When you install and connect to a SWGEmu server with this application, you are doing so by your own accord. SWGEmu cannot condone the usage of the Sony Online Entertainment client application with it's server software, and users should be warned that they are in breach of the Sony Online Entertainment EULA when they do so.

Basically, the client side is the code you bought to have on your computer.  Since you already have it, you can do with it whatever you privately want (to a certain extent, mind... no selling it, no decrypting it, etc, but you can run it all you want.)   The server side is the problem, in that Sony hasn't released it, and that if there's a rogue server, Sony may indeed come after the server AND the person(s) running a client to connect to it. 

Maybe.  Be a freakin' nightmare if they did that past the server, as a big ol' bad comin' after a wee lil' bitty is just not cool, legally or not, in the Public's View(tm), especially for a closed game.  "Why do you even care?!" they'd cry.

But further, there's NO server code.  So all they're doing is a very difficult reverse engineering, seeing what the client wants and attempting to replicate the need as best they can figure out, as well as any enemy/friend location, action and what not being served back to the client.  This in and of itself is just a tiring trial and error.

Sony *says* the code does not exist (for the code they're trying to replicate with the SWGEmu is one previous to the last couple of updates which 'broke' the game enough that people quit), so they're doing it completely from scratch, listening to clients, analyzing the data, making code to do this or that, and repeat.

Ugh.

But sure... you can play that, if you want.  Heck, it may be 90% perfect, but that 10%...

And regarding legality, in case that matters:

Q. Is SWGEmu legal?
 
A. This question pops up about once per month on our forums, but the never changing answer is simply, yes. Understand, there is a fine line which SWGEmu has yet to cross. Since SWGEmu doesn't distribute any of Sony Online Entertainment's copyrighted material, it does not break any copyright laws. SWGEmu works very hard to stay within it's legal right to produce it's software, and will do it's best to never include copyrighted materials, or infringe on any software patents.

This is important.  That the code is being done from scratch on the server side means that they just are pushing numbers around in code that's *completely* not Sony's.  That it just happens to work with the SOE client for SWG is... well, not happenstance, but happy coincidence, let's call it. 

It is as they say a fine line. 

But there's one other thing mentioned somewhere in there.  They started this *when Sony 'broke' it with that bad (to the players) update.*  That means they had a head start on what was going to need to happen, *way* before the close of SWG.  The Combat Upgrade happened in 2005, and then they started this project some time after that.  That is now *10 years* of coding and experiments, potentially.  Whereas in the CoH example, there was 3 months and poof, and now it's been only 3 yaers and change. 

So you need to give CoHEmu more time, ok?  Ok.

---

This is but ONE example, the biggest, I'd think, of the SWG issue.  Unless someone's got a rogue copy of the real deal, last update to it (which apparently is highly disliked compared to the Pre-CU anyway) then what you're seeing is a nearly decade old project still going on, and openly recruiting people to try it out.  And if they DO have a real deal, Sony code server set up... you won't be seeing that on the Googles or anything, but a Dark Web sort of thing.

Good luck on that invite! 

[Felderburg]

That means they had a head start on what was going to need to happen, *way* before the close of SWG.  The Combat Upgrade happened in 2005, and then they started this project some time after that.  That is now *10 years* of coding and experiments, potentially.  Whereas in the CoH example, there was 3 months and poof, and now it's been only 3 yaers and change. 

So you need to give CoHEmu more time, ok?  Ok.

This is probably the biggest thing to keep in mind. There are 100% for certain people working on getting a CoH server up. They just won't do it any time soon, or even Soon^TM.

Additionally, if a private server or some kind of emulated version did arise NCsoft would immediately sue it into oblivion

Maybe.  Be a freakin' nightmare if they did that past the server, as a big ol' bad comin' after a wee lil' bitty is just not cool, legally or not, in the Public's View(tm), especially for a closed game.  "Why do you even care?!" they'd cry.

NCsoft doesn't care about public backlash, as far as I can tell. I will note that Infinite Rasa, the Tabula Rasa emulator, is starting up again: http://infiniterasa.org/viewtopic.php?t=26 The pertinent bit:

NC still has code, but this community will do a few things differently to protect it. The last community was shut down on Copyright infringement, but nothing was being infringed on. The server code was written by scratch, which makes it not NC's. Clients, unfortunately, were being torrented since the info was posted which is never a good idea.

[The Fifth Horseman]

My point. Three years after our shutdown we still can't get some sort of private server running or anything.
Why?
I do not know that much about how to do that sort of thing but I would bet that someone in our community does.

There is SEGS, but that's a one-man effort. There was another one on Reddit, not sure where that went. Then there is the SCORE, who have no ETA and make it a point of not announcing their progress publicly, but who by my reckoning are the most likely to get it done - it's a question of when it's done and when they decide it's the right time to release it. I would not put it outside the realm of possibility that they have completed their project but have reasons to wait and see how other events play out first (and I can think of at least one) .

I can guarantee you that if it was possible it would have been done by the time the shut down occurred.

Mate. Whoever's working on this project is certainly not doing so full time (especially given that nobody's going to pay them for that time). Reverse engineering is neither easy, simple or fast- we're talking about a pretty complex system that has to be recreated from scratch.
Expecting it "by the time the shutdown occurred" was never a realistic deadline, excluding a copy of the actual server getting leaked somewhere.

The only choices were to get NCsoft to relaunch the game, or to rebuild it from the ground up (like APR is trying to do).

Unless you have access to the official server's source, developing a server emulator is exactly rebuilding the server portion of the game from the ground up basing on what you can glean from packet captures taken during the game's availability and reverse engineering the client-side code. In comparison to that, APR is actually at an advantage due to not having to worry about compatibility with a pre-existing client.

[Shenku]

Also remember, going back to Star Wars Galaxies as your example, those emulated servers started being worked on and put together back in 2005, which was years before the game's servers actually shut down, in response to a game update that a significant portion of the community disagreed with. Since the servers were still up, they had a lot more time to study them and figure out how to reverse engineer them to a playable state, and was up and running long before the game servers actually shut down.

CoH on the other hand, SEGS aside since it's a one man project and always has beenas I understand it, was given about 6 months for the SCORE to study the way the server functioned before it was turned off entirely, leaving the reverse engineerers to figure the rest out with no functioning reference point. This probably makes their task harder by a ton, and no where near as much time has passed as Galaxies had for their servers. These things take years to put together, so be patient and keep the hope alive.

[Inc42]

Mate. Whoever's working on this project is certainly not doing so full time (especially given that nobody's going to pay them for that time). Reverse engineering is neither easy, simple or fast- we're talking about a pretty complex system that has to be recreated from scratch.
Expecting it "by the time the shutdown occurred" was never a realistic deadline, excluding a copy of the actual server getting leaked somewhere.

This...was exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me?

[srmalloy]

A few reasons, firstly no one really has the game code anymore (other than NCsoft of course) from what I understand. Additionally, if a private server or some kind of emulated version did arise NCsoft would immediately sue it into oblivion

I would be surprised if none of the programming team had an offsite code archive. That said, I would be even more surprised if that code archive ever saw daylight without an explicit agreement with NCsoft to allow access to the source code. Not wanting to play Bambi in "Bambi vs. Godzilla" is a strong motivation.

[MaidMercury]

Too much time has gone by for my faith to believe CoH will ever return.
NCsoft went way out of their way to destroy this game and bury it for reasons unrelated to making sense
business wise. It is obsolete and they still screw around with their 'talk's.

The mid east will have 'peace' before NCsoft ever comes to an agreement the way things have been going.
My boycott of them continues; the store I work at definitely doesn't even promote their games.

Had fun, still loaded on my computer, can't forget CoH , made too many friends,  so many wonderful experiences and it saved me from a drinking problem back then from a failed relationship.

[The Fifth Horseman]

This...was exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me?

*cough*
The way you phrased it, I read

This was something that was looked into heavily at shutdown, and I can guarantee you that if it was possible it would have been done by the time the shut down occurred.

as

<creating a private server> was something that was looked into heavily at shutdown, and I can guarantee you that if it was possible <to create a private server> it would have been done by the time the shut down occurred.

Ie quite the exact opposite of the meaning you intended

[Abraxus]

Hard to know how to feel, but basically I won't let my disgust for NCSoft color my excitement, and faith in the eventual return of CoH.  I have no empirical evidence that my faith is in any way justified, but that is kind of the nature of faith, is it not?

I don't know why things went as they did when the game shut down.  At this point it would likely only piss me off to know the details.  All I care about is playing the game again, and until I am given a reason to seriously doubt that will happen (like the talks failed again), I will go on waiting with anticipation set to "simmer".

[doc7924]

Hard to know how to feel, but basically I won't let my disgust for NCSoft color my excitement, and faith in the eventual return of CoH.  I have no empirical evidence that my faith is in any way justified, but that is kind of the nature of faith, is it not?

I don't know why things went as they did when the game shut down.  At this point it would likely only piss me off to know the details.  All I care about is playing the game again, and until I am given a reason to seriously doubt that will happen (like the talks failed again), I will go on waiting with anticipation set to "simmer".

I wonder myself. If they just wanted to get rid of it they could have sold it off to someone to keep it going.
There are so many MMO's out there that are not as good as COH was and still going.

I guess I was spoiled because though CO and DCUO are decent games with good powers and costumes - a lot of the interfaces and inventory management and ways to upgrade and craft just seem so complicated.

COH was nice and simple - slots for enhancements, enhancements and crafting that was nice and easy to do.

[Abraxus]

We many never know the REAL reasons things happened as they did.  All we do know is it made no sense from what we know of the business numbers.  I would gladly forgo any desire to understand why it went away, to get it back ASAP!  That work for you NCSoft? Alrighty then...done deal!

[Ice Trix]

I hope the score project succeeds. I think CoH will need multiple private servers to exist in the wild if it's frozen.
I think if the frozen game gets released by NCsoft, then we can expect jerk hackers to exploit it real quick. If there's only one place to play it, it will be dominated by these types of things without GM or Dev support to fix stuff.

[Paragon Avenger]

I say we do a sit-in at NCSoft Corp. Offices.