Author Topic: You hate it, I love it?  (Read 3220 times)

Ultimate15

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You hate it, I love it?
« on: March 01, 2015, 05:12:15 AM »
Hey everyone :) I just wrapped up playing some Champions Online. I hate how even thinking about that game makes me miss COH all the more - I can't help but log in every now and then just because I want to keep in touch with the COH community that's migrated over there since shut down, but it's so self-sabotaging for my homesick/lethargic pathos.

...But it got me thinking.

I DO believe that many of the issues and critiques people had of COH were valid. No game is perfect, and City of Heroes was/is no exception (came pretty damn close, though). However, I think one of the reasons as to why I was a 7 year veteran of the game was, in part, due to the fact that the problems some players had with the game were never really 'problems' for me, per-say. In fact, they were actually things about the game I kinda grew to like? Such as:

1.) Wow, these graphics aren't the greatest. Okaaaaaaay okay. Visually, no - COH won't give you an eye boner. But the look/feel of the game from a graphic standpoint suited the game well with the type of genre and feel that I suspected the franchise was going for. I like when I logged into COH, I felt like I was in a comic book world, or I was in some type of DC/Marvel animated movie. I really came to love how things didn't look super realistic, because I don't think the game itself was supposed to be all that authentic? Right?

2.) It's repetitive. I have a few level 50's and I'm bored with it now. I think I've stressed this in another post...but this is a super typical, very common critique that most gamers have of ANY semi-successful MMORPG. "Oh, there's not enough content...I'm doing the same thing over and over again...I already 'beat' the game so it's lost a lot of it's appeal..." These types of criticisms are more typical than fuzz on a peach - ergo, any studio's chances of combating these levels of issues (because players WILL stop playing these games because of problems such as this one) is by consistently and effectively providing the players with strategically scheduled patches and updates. Which, I believe, COH did an incredible job with. They listened to their fanbase, they gave us the stuff we wanted - capes, COV, wings, AE, PVP, etc. - and they did it fairly consistently (if you want to see a game that isn't updated nearly as often as it should be, just head on over to CO...and even the hardcore CO players will say the same - no shade). The only thing you can really do to fight the 'repetition' that SO many gaming titles fall victim to is to give the players more. More, more, more. Honestly, it's a fairly simple theory to understand, but you'd be surprised as to how many studios can't quite seem to get on board with it.

3.) The grinding to lvl 50 just became too much for me. It burned me out. See, perhaps I'm just crazy...but this was never an issue for me simply because getting to lvl 50 was only such a small part of why my gaming experience with COH was so incredible. Actually, now that I think about it - getting to lvl 50 was when I started to run into problems with the game, because the 'grind' was over *laughs*. I liked working hard, and putting in the hours and the time to run missions and find teams and patrol the streets for Skulls or CoT or whatever - I liked feeling more and more powerful the more and more hours I put into my characters. It was a rewarding type of game-play system like that? Also, I feel like the 'grind' never really messed up my affection for the game because I was an RPer on Virtue. Seriously - RP on Virtue reeeeeeeally kind of made it a whole other ballgame to me. Anytime I didn't want to level anymore, I would hit up the Pocket or talk up my hero's teammates on our SG chat. Anytime I just felt like running missions and beating up baddies, I would peace out and join a PUG or solo some stuff in Peregrine or Talos. Paragon Studios really did a phenominal job and creating VARIOUS outlets and opportunities for it's players to have a completely individualized gaming experience with VARIETY. It certainly worked for me, at least.

So - what say you? Were there other common mishapes or issues you heard through the grapevine with COH that were just for whatever reason NOT a problem for you? Not suggesting that the critiques or problems of the game weren't honorable, but you just didn't have the same grievance that others had?

I wanna hear!
Viva la Virtue!

Blackout

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 09:34:54 PM »
Nice to see a bit more discussion being started :D. Personally I loved city of heroes/villains art style, it really felt unique to me because it combined just the right amount of unreality with the right amount of grittiness to make a wonderful visual style that stretched one's imagination, but not to the point where it broke your suspension of disbelief, I think DCU kind of did a similar thing, but the proportions, and by extension the silhouette that each character cast was way too conformed, and whilst kind of visually appealing, Champions art style completely broke my suspension of disbelief a lot of the time. I'd probably agree with the repetition though, although I did enjoy using a lot of the different powers (Knockout blow was awesome), although at the same time I never grinded all the way to level 50.

houtex

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 12:45:08 AM »
Regarding point 1: Graphics:

While it's not the immaculately detailed worlds of some purpose built rail games can be, the graphics compared to (The game what's name shall not be mentioned) and Champions, STO, Valiance, HaV, etc, are on a par.  Maybe not the exact level, but not too far behind.  And they were working on that, as best they could, with a 10 year old engine, y'know. 

Games are not about the graphics anyway.  It's about playability, fun, and story in this case.  But tell that to Candy Crush or Farmville.  *rolleyes*

What I sort of would like to have seen, but didn't bother me either, is separated finger animations, and maybe some facial animations.  When they did those cutscenes, it wouldn't have sucked to have lips move, eyes emote, that sort of thing.

---

Regarding point 2: Beating the game and being bored, repitition...:

I never got the 'I beat it' and 'I'm bored' bit.  Honest.

There were so many archetypes to play.  I never got a Tank or SoA or Widow or Mastermind or Stalker or Corruptor or Defender... well, you get the idea.  I had more archetypes to play with, and never got that opportunity.  Heck I only got a 50+Alpha Water/Ice Blaster done the day before shutdown! (That was pretty awesome, many thanks to the denziens of Pinnacle for helping Chillsea get there!) It took me that long to get a Blaster figured out and working for me.  Blasters were usually too squishy for my style, but that combo seemed to be a hardy one.  And FUN.  But of course, it was added later to the game, which was also why it took longer for me and a Blaster to 'click'... couldn't make it yet.

Even when a character was 'shelved' for a bit while I worked on some other one, I would regularly bring them back out.  Ruby Dawn, Cerise Dawn, my mains for the longest, would be taken out because I wanted to play healer, or I wanted to play complete mind controller.  I would get out Brawling Humiliator to show off and beat down a 2-3 combined mobs of +4s, bosses and all, to nothing in the presence of someone who was in disbelief that any Brute could do that using only Brawl.  (And yes, he did.  Alla time.  He was awesome, my favorite.)

Then I'd want to try a Tank... no that isn't good... Maybe a Warshade... and altits is a thing y'all. :)

Further, there's so much story that I still hadn't done.  Most of the Villain side was done in teams where I didn't get to read the crap, because it was GO GO GO and not about taking the time to comprehend and learn the lore.  Everyone is in such a RUSH...  And Praetorian storyline is sill unknown to me.  The overall I get, but still.

The point I'm rambling about is that there was so much LEFT TO GO for me, I had years and years of playtime left, with the little bits of time that I could gather to play it.

But seems like everyone's in such a rush... so they miss some of this.  They don't stop to smell the roses, break open a rock or two and have a look inside, and just rush a character through without regard to why that character is, what the City's going through... all that stuff.

Shame, that.  But that's some people for ya.  Rush rush rush... and they miss the 'thing' about CoH. (I think.  I really don't know, just postulation.)

---

Regarding point 3: Grinding:

Yeah, that's kind of the suck.  But it's part of it.  If the game stopped at 30, people would be saying "It's too easy" and "Shouldn't there be more to this?" and such like that.

And then there's (The game what's name shall not be mentioned) Champions, STO...  They get grind too.  Unless it's just that much easier... yeah.  Grind in games happens, so why is CoH any different?

I didn't mind the grind, especially if I had support.  Solo grind?  On the wrong character... yeah it would blow chunks.

Then again, I am the guy who made Brawling Humiliator, and the mission set was to not make any XP unless on the street, solo, no missions, no contacts, no help.  You want to talk Grind?  Do that from levels 45-50.

He made 50+Alpha Slot and was in fact working on certain Incarnate stuff when the thing closed.  I miss that Brute.  He taught me so much about CoH. 

So knowing that, you might get that Grind on other characters wasn't a thing to me. Just part of the deal. :)
 
---
 
Having said my personal thoughts on those reasons, I would like to postulate on the 'rest' of those who boo-hooed CoH's 'shortcomings' (whatevs.)
 
Individuals may have their reasons to not play a game.  I don't care for Candy Crush or Farmville, for example, because they don't intrigue me.  Some don't want to play a game over and over, they are a "go beat it and move on" kind of player.  Play it through and then when's the next one?  Halo might be a good example... or maybe Resident Evil... Or maybe Zork.  There's a beginning, middle, end and you beat the game.  Sure it was a story too.  It's like a big movie and you're the star. :)
 
Some are just into the simple things.  Angry Birds.  Sure there's strategy and ballistics and such, but really... flinging birds at pigs.  Go figure.  Or Flappy Bird.  Or QWOP.
 
And there's my point:  There's all kinds for all people is the key.  So some don't want to play Chess.  Some don't want to play Poker.  Some don't want to play Call of Duty (raises hand).  So there'll be a bunch for whom CoH is not a thing they're into.  And that's ok.
 
CoH wasn't for everyone.  But it was for us. 
 
And hopefully will be again, and that right soon!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 12:57:00 AM by houtex »

Codewalker

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 08:55:52 PM »
And they were working on that, as best they could, with a 10 year old engine, y'know.

I really wish people would stop using that phrase. If COH is based on a '10 year old engine', then Unreal should be called a 17 year old engine.

Both graphics and gameplay capabilities were constantly being improved by Paragon (and Cryptic before them). Not always as much as they wanted given programmer time constraints, but it was never stagnant.

Legacy assets like the base character model / skeleton that couldn't be improved without remaking all of the hundreds of costume parts and thousands of animations that depended on them were a much bigger barrier to shiny looking graphics than the engine.

Blackout

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 09:33:54 PM »
I really wish people would stop using that phrase. If COH is based on a '10 year old engine', then Unreal should be called a 17 year old engine.

Both graphics and gameplay capabilities were constantly being improved by Paragon (and Cryptic before them). Not always as much as they wanted given programmer time constraints, but it was never stagnant.

Legacy assets like the base character model / skeleton that couldn't be improved without remaking all of the hundreds of costume parts and thousands of animations that depended on them were a much bigger barrier to shiny looking graphics than the engine.

True Unreal could be called an engine that is 17years old. But it is also an engine that has been revised and revised again with upgrade upon upgrade being piled on top of it, City of heroes had its graphics improved once or twice, by a (and lets be honest here) fairly small development studio who can't hope to come close to the power of something as popular and frequently used as the unreal engine. Considering that, and considering that they managed to make a very nice and unique art-style with Coh's engine I'd say they did a fantastic job.

Not trying to be contradictory; Just pointing out that Unreal has had new versions made of it many,many,MANY times and has far more resources backing it than Coh's had.

houtex

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 04:23:15 AM »
Which is what I was saying in typing that bit.

I mean that they started the whole engine from scratch, IIRC, what, 12 or so years ago, right?  And constantly improved it, sure, but... there were still shortcomings based in that first iteration that never got coded out because it would have been massive... hence, no movin' lips, changing of expression, or individual digits.

That they added ragdolls, capes, reflections and other items is pretty awesome of course, but those were added, not changed, I would gather.

Think of it as a car.  Maybe like my ol' Muskrat.  It was a '66 Mustang coupe that started out as a 6 cylinder Sprint 200, tired body, seats wore out... needed help.  I turned it into a show car (unintentionally, I wanted to drive it, but then... too nice to drive. :p) with '88 Mustang GT seats, complete with fold downs, carpeted the trunk, put a '67 tank in it for extra range (I could go *400* miles in that thing) brand new American Eagle alloy wheels, new stereo, woodgrain wheel, new paint...

And if I'd gone whole hog and swapped out the engine for a 5.0 out of a '94 Mustang?  Is it a '94?  Or is it a '66?   Or maybe an '88 with those seats?

Nope.  It's still an old '66 Mustang.  Just has a few new bits to it to improve it in looks and comfort/performance.

Such it is with the CoH engine.  And by engine, I mean the whole dang game, really, I suppose.  So maybe I shoulda said that instead.  But then I suppose it would also be protested.  10 year old parts?  What do I say?
 
In any event, I meant no disrespect, more of a point of 'it started back then, and there's still parts of it that age' item.  Sorry if I irritated.

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 04:49:35 AM »
I DO believe that many of the issues and critiques people had of COH were valid. No game is perfect, and City of Heroes was/is no exception (came pretty damn close, though).

My biggest problem with CoH was that the developers didn't listen to the players enough. Especially at the beginning, with Statesman in charge, they had a "vision" of how the game should be, and even though that's not what the players wanted, they did their best to fulfill that vision. Statesman's famous 3 to 1 rule was a good example, where he felt that 3 NPC's should be a tough fight for any hero. That was completely absurd, since at that time, one hero could ONE SHOT an entire map of NPC's. And surprisingly (only to the devs), people really wanted to feel powerful when playing a game about superheroes. Being able to take 3 minions at a time, something a regular person can do with any kind of training....just isn't that super. So I really didn't appreciate the nerfs, although a few of them (like ED) ended up being good for the game. And I really hated the lack of feedback. If I ever made a game, I'd make it a priority to find out who the top players were, and get their input on how to improve the game. I feel that was really missing in CoH....but since it's the only MMO I've ever played, maybe that's just how things are in MMO's.

The good thing was that the devs learned over time, and by the game's end, I feel that they were listening to the community more than ever before. That's why the end came as such a shock. The game was better than it had ever been in its existence, and even better things were on the horizon. Then out of the blue, it was all over.

As far as the "problems" you mentioned, none of them were problems for me. I played computer games in the '90's. :) So I play games for the gameplay, not for the graphics. I wouldn't enjoy CoH if it had 16 bit graphics from 1992, but the way it was, was perfectly fine for me.

And being repetitive and "grinding" are basically the same thing. It was tedious at times, but I always understood that it's part of playing an MMO. I do wish that an "auto level" button was available to veterans of the game. Personally I enjoyed playing at level 50 more than leveling up to 50, and after getting to 50 like 10 times, I would have appreciated an easier way to get there, just to experience more builds.

Blackout

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 06:07:39 PM »
Which is what I was saying in typing that bit.

I mean that they started the whole engine from scratch, IIRC, what, 12 or so years ago, right?  And constantly improved it, sure, but... there were still shortcomings based in that first iteration that never got coded out because it would have been massive... hence, no movin' lips, changing of expression, or individual digits.

That they added ragdolls, capes, reflections and other items is pretty awesome of course, but those were added, not changed, I would gather.

Think of it as a car.  Maybe like my ol' Muskrat.  It was a '66 Mustang coupe that started out as a 6 cylinder Sprint 200, tired body, seats wore out... needed help.  I turned it into a show car (unintentionally, I wanted to drive it, but then... too nice to drive. :p) with '88 Mustang GT seats, complete with fold downs, carpeted the trunk, put a '67 tank in it for extra range (I could go *400* miles in that thing) brand new American Eagle alloy wheels, new stereo, woodgrain wheel, new paint...

And if I'd gone whole hog and swapped out the engine for a 5.0 out of a '94 Mustang?  Is it a '94?  Or is it a '66?   Or maybe an '88 with those seats?

Nope.  It's still an old '66 Mustang.  Just has a few new bits to it to improve it in looks and comfort/performance.

Such it is with the CoH engine.  And by engine, I mean the whole dang game, really, I suppose.  So maybe I shoulda said that instead.  But then I suppose it would also be protested.  10 year old parts?  What do I say?
 
In any event, I meant no disrespect, more of a point of 'it started back then, and there's still parts of it that age' item.  Sorry if I irritated.

No problem whatsoever :), I just feel that if City of Heroes were to be changed into a newer engine it would no longer be city of heroes. Not that it would neccesarily be a bad thing of course, but I feel that it would be better to have newer improvements and newer engine stuff in an entirely new game, rather than changing the ol' classic. Which coincidentally we're getting with the successor projects, so Yay! :D

Ultimate15

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 12:06:27 AM »
Viva la Virtue!

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 04:48:19 AM »
Over the years I'd discovered that that whenever CoX seemed to "grind", it was simply a perspective issue. I'd been running waaay too many solo missions for days on end. I'd stop running missions for a couple days and go badging or AE creating, then go back to missions and they didn't seem to grind anymore.

I'm a car guy too and I've done some amazing things with an old "engine". Paragon Studios blew me away with Night Ward. The Midnighter Mansion was INCREDIBLE. Couldn't believe it was the same engine that ran Steel Canyon. I think, at the end, Paragon Studios was just starting to get comfortable with the engine's true potential... and utilizing it.

I've always said the only thing I thought CoX really got wrong was that the characters didn't bank when flying. They looked more like an action figure hanging on a string the whole time. When I'm turning left I should lean to the left a bit and bank the turn.

And... How do you "conquer" an MMO? Get to 50? Bah! One does not play an MMO for the story, the graphics, or the abilities. One plays an MMO for the camaraderie of other really cool players. Most of the time I didn't care if I was running Frostfire or ITF, I was having fun because of the fantastic crowd I logged in to play with everyday. Few and far between is there an MMO where even the PUGs will go out of their way to help you, or laugh with you when you both flop out a mission door face down, or try FOR HOURS to figure out how to spawn Caleb with you just so YOU could get the badge.
Sure I miss playing the game, but what I truly miss is the types of gamers it seemed to attract which was VERY different from (the game that shall not be named).

Rant: Accomplished. Missing: CoX. Gonna Cry: Now.
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Blackout

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 12:01:19 AM »
Over the years I'd discovered that that whenever CoX seemed to "grind", it was simply a perspective issue. I'd been running waaay too many solo missions for days on end. I'd stop running missions for a couple days and go badging or AE creating, then go back to missions and they didn't seem to grind anymore.

I'm a car guy too and I've done some amazing things with an old "engine". Paragon Studios blew me away with Night Ward. The Midnighter Mansion was INCREDIBLE. Couldn't believe it was the same engine that ran Steel Canyon. I think, at the end, Paragon Studios was just starting to get comfortable with the engine's true potential... and utilizing it.

I've always said the only thing I thought CoX really got wrong was that the characters didn't bank when flying. They looked more like an action figure hanging on a string the whole time. When I'm turning left I should lean to the left a bit and bank the turn.

And... How do you "conquer" an MMO? Get to 50? Bah! One does not play an MMO for the story, the graphics, or the abilities. One plays an MMO for the camaraderie of other really cool players. Most of the time I didn't care if I was running Frostfire or ITF, I was having fun because of the fantastic crowd I logged in to play with everyday. Few and far between is there an MMO where even the PUGs will go out of their way to help you, or laugh with you when you both flop out a mission door face down, or try FOR HOURS to figure out how to spawn Caleb with you just so YOU could get the badge.
Sure I miss playing the game, but what I truly miss is the types of gamers it seemed to attract which was VERY different from (the game that shall not be named).

Rant: Accomplished. Missing: CoX. Gonna Cry: Now.

Couldn't agree more, I'd completely forgotten about the Night ward, First ward too now that I think of it.  ;D
The vistas in those areas were absolutely fascinating and they had a ridiculous amount of detail despite the size of the area; Like the golden eagle statues on the skyscrapers.

Ultimate15

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 03:37:18 PM »
Over the years I'd discovered that that whenever CoX seemed to "grind", it was simply a perspective issue. I'd been running waaay too many solo missions for days on end. I'd stop running missions for a couple days and go badging or AE creating, then go back to missions and they didn't seem to grind anymore.

I'm a car guy too and I've done some amazing things with an old "engine". Paragon Studios blew me away with Night Ward. The Midnighter Mansion was INCREDIBLE. Couldn't believe it was the same engine that ran Steel Canyon. I think, at the end, Paragon Studios was just starting to get comfortable with the engine's true potential... and utilizing it.

I've always said the only thing I thought CoX really got wrong was that the characters didn't bank when flying. They looked more like an action figure hanging on a string the whole time. When I'm turning left I should lean to the left a bit and bank the turn.

And... How do you "conquer" an MMO? Get to 50? Bah! One does not play an MMO for the story, the graphics, or the abilities. One plays an MMO for the camaraderie of other really cool players. Most of the time I didn't care if I was running Frostfire or ITF, I was having fun because of the fantastic crowd I logged in to play with everyday. Few and far between is there an MMO where even the PUGs will go out of their way to help you, or laugh with you when you both flop out a mission door face down, or try FOR HOURS to figure out how to spawn Caleb with you just so YOU could get the badge.
Sure I miss playing the game, but what I truly miss is the types of gamers it seemed to attract which was VERY different from (the game that shall not be named).

Rant: Accomplished. Missing: CoX. Gonna Cry: Now.

Well, sure :)

One of the best things about City of Heroes - as I only came to realize towards the end of my time as a 7 year veteran of the game - was the community of players. They were the silver lining, the cherry on top. They weren't just heroes in game, but behind the keyboard as well. Super friendly to newcomers (albeit the occasional troll here and there, which is very much unavoidable), incredibly helpful with any questions/problems you might be having in game, and were always willing to jump in and team up with one another (I think you saw this a particularly large amount during those earlier levels in The Hollows - SO much teaming going on in that zone, it was kind of incredible). And that really helped me to fight 'the grind', too - whether it be RPing at the Pocket on Virtue or just chatting it up with my SG mates or going badge hunting with a friend, having that strong sense of comradery amongst the players really helped to take the edge off of any short comings with the game itself.

Also, I completely agree regarding the banking when flying bit - that would have been a nice touch. Also, blinking would be cool? And maybe separate fingers? But for the most part, I had zilch complaints regarding the character creator/graphics.

...But unfortunately, these issues were still prevalent problems that MMORPG players found in COH. I just wanted to start a thread regarding this because I found it so ironic that I didn't have an issue with ANY of these things, yet I heard players complaining about it semi-frequently (not TOO frequently, but enough). Maybe the reason we don't see these as significant faults is the very reason why we loved it so much - did we think COH was 'perfect' even with it's minor setbacks?

I think I might of. Huh.
Viva la Virtue!

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Re: You hate it, I love it?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 10:11:29 PM »
At the end I had...30ish level 50s? There were times where I felt a grind, but that was only when I spent too much time on my own. Generally the only time I felt like I was grinding was when I was purposefully farming for drops, which is when I would be watching TV or whatever at the same time.

I ran the ITF probably well over a hundred times. I truly have no idea how many, but my group would do it pretty often, or I would PUG it, because it was FUN. I would also say that I had a different experience every single time, even when I was playing with the same people. Maybe it was our conversations on Skype, maybe we did a slightly different tactic, maybe someone did something funny and stupid, but even doing those same missions time and time again, sometimes back to back, it never felt like a grind.