The Concern Thread

[LaughingAlex]

I only called this the concern thread, more because I wanted to separate the topic that was brought up in the blood moon thread courtasy of a light flame launched at me.  It wasn't anything unwarented like what I typically get at the CO forums, but thought I would separate the topic from that thread.

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=266931

Basically, CO is starting to get accused of being a bait and switch game.  Some have already spoken in the other thread here about it, but the recent nerf on 10/16/2014 has caused people to quit and even ask for their money back.  A lot of very, very negative feelings have been plaguing the forums and it created a toxicity that I honestly haven't seen in the CO forums.  Zone chat was also just as usual prone to rub salt in the wounds.  But thing is to me at least, nerf-herders, as some call them, have always been trying to "balance" the game to their own ends, often targetting anything they do not like.  The latest nerf was in fact suggested by people who were intensively hateful of vehicles.

The whole crusade by such players isn't anything new.  But the fact that their nerfs is causing people to launch bait and switch accusations certainly is for CO at this point.  It was minor at first but now, I don't know.  The forums were left in chaos and some have commented even what trail turtle ended up having to endure.  I even thought and asked if I should mention these happenings to massively, in the end I chose not to as someone here suggested not to(I was very hesitant in the first place, whole reason I asked.  I don't want CO being shut down nore).

Make no crusaders mistake, I don't want CO being shut down, but as said there isn't denying something is happening :/.  I really worry for CO at this point that it'll be lucky to last, worry even it'll be getting a shutdown notice before any of the spiritual successors or CoX come close to any come back.  A bait and switch accusation is a very serious one, in any form, and businesses don't last long under fire of it.

[Relitner]

Nerfing is a classic means of introducing more/different gear that supplants the older gear being nerfed. WoW has made this an art form ...only it requires grinding rather than cstore purchases.

I know there are folks on the forums who really do enjoy playing CO. I used to count myself among them, until the original, average crafting system was gutted to its present sad state. Development came to a screeching hault and the only new content came in the form of cstore items and lockboxes. It seems pretty clear to me that PW purchased Cryptic for the STO IP (and possibly Neverwinter) in order to milk the deep pockets of Star Trek fans.

 I don't recall where I read this, but I believe Paramount has an "out" clause if PW allows the game to languish. I could be wrong ...in any event, STO is a very entertaining game with a great deal of fun, re-playable content. Yes, it can be grindy, but it is compelling grinding.

Champions has a fantastic and rich back-story and a ton of content to draw upon. But for some reason, they just simply don't leverage it. I can't help but wonder wonder whether CO was just "part of the deal" and left to die after the purchase. It sure seems that way to me.

[LaughingAlex]

Nerfing is a classic means of introducing more/different gear that supplants the older gear being nerfed. WoW has made this an art form ...only it requires grinding rather than cstore purchases.

I know there are folks on the forums who really do enjoy playing CO. I used to count myself among them, until the original, average crafting system was gutted to its present sad state. Development came to a screeching hault and the only new content came in the form of cstore items and lockboxes. It seems pretty clear to me that PW purchased Cryptic for the STO IP (and possibly Neverwinter) in order to milk the deep pockets of Star Trek fans.

 I don't recall where I read this, but I believe Paramount has an "out" clause if PW allows the game to languish. I could be wrong ...in any event, STO is a very entertaining game with a great deal of fun, re-playable content. Yes, it can be grindy, but it is compelling grinding.

Champions has a fantastic and rich back-story and a ton of content to draw upon. But for some reason, they just simply don't leverage it. I can't help but wonder wonder whether CO was just "part of the deal" and left to die after the purchase. It sure seems that way to me.

I wonder that to if there is some executive meddling that is sabotaging anything that would bring CO out of the pit it fell into.  But I certainly believe you that PWE only wanted STO, because CO has never seen any kind of good attention.  In fact for the full first year after CoX shut down the game never got any attention.  And it's on this page for that http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news-main/pc-2/top-5-mmos-that-should-have-been-cancelled-a-long-time-ago/ .  Yes, CO is listed as 3.  I'm amazed it wasn't 1st.  I am sure there are other lists out there like that but I really don't want to depress myself trying to find them.

CO had a chance to really take the spotlight and it was it's chance to shine and PWE just never did anything with that.  And one thing I ponder, about STO, how do lockbox items compare to non-lockbox stuff?  In CO for a long time lockbox gated stuff was almost always better than non-lockbox stuff, and justice gear STILL requires lockboxes.  The fact that legion gear was indirectly nerfed, with justice gear requiring people who had legion gear requiring yet more boxes to be opened, was bad enough.  Then of course, the plasma beam nerf that really ruined vehicles, with a looming fear the incendiary round, the sole good weapon for vehicles WILL be nerfed to in order to cater to the try hard nerf-herders :S.

It's, bad for the game.  Your mentioning CO being left to die, I ponder if there is meddling to try and make that happen.

[Relitner]

There is a tiny chance of landing the big-ticket item from a themed lockbox, which is usually a top-tier ship that can't be purchased (except on the exchange). They have the equivalant of "drifter salvage" in each box that can be used to purchase unique gear. Past that you're pretty much throwing away cash-money on R&D materials and common duty officers.

[Codewalker]

So.... am I allowed to say "I told you so" about Pay2Win and selling items with an in-game use, especially ones that are better (either subjectively or objectively) than what you can earn without RMT?

COH narrowly escaped a similar situation when it was discovered that the cash shop version of the Performance Shifter proc was about 3x better than the crafted version -- and was subsequently nerfed. The only saving grace was that the nerf happened before many people had caught on and bought them.

[Castegyre]

I have a LTS to STO and I do really enjoy being ridiculously over powered in CO. I even had quite a bit of fun with some of the RP community in CO for a while. A big part of why I don't play either game these days is because of the lock boxes. I don't mind supporting a company by paying them to entertain me, and I don"t have a preference between F2P or P2P. Either method is fine so long as the people I'm giving my money to aren't gouging me and are actually working to entertain me. I do mind the cash grab of lock boxes, though. Even better versions of the lock box method of soaking money out of the players like the cards in CoH are just less bad than others, not good. I don't like playing CO without a sub because of the restrictions. I don't like giving Cryptic and PW money for CO because of the lack of return in them improving the game. Lock boxes and seeing how much money and effort some people dump into them for me is just one straw too many.

[LaughingAlex]

So.... am I allowed to say "I told you so" about Pay2Win and selling items with an in-game use, especially ones that are better (either subjectively or objectively) than what you can earn without RMT?

COH narrowly escaped a similar situation when it was discovered that the cash shop version of the Performance Shifter proc was about 3x better than the crafted version -- and was subsequently nerfed. The only saving grace was that the nerf happened before many people had caught on and bought them.

It certainly chainges some perspective on some things with regards to what should be earnable and what should be paid for.  Honestly, anything lockbox related should be cosmetic only anymore.  But I ponder if CoX comes back if things like enhancement boosters should be earnable in game at this point to avoid the kind of stuff CO is going through right now.

[Brou]

So.... am I allowed to say "I told you so" about Pay2Win and selling items with an in-game use, especially ones that are better (either subjectively or objectively) than what you can earn without RMT?

COH narrowly escaped a similar situation when it was discovered that the cash shop version of the Performance Shifter proc was about 3x better than the crafted version -- and was subsequently nerfed. The only saving grace was that the nerf happened before many people had caught on and bought them.

But Plasma Beam is a questionite store item. Questionite is earned by playing the game or trading zen on the market for someone else's. It comes on some vehicles, sure, but that's a stretch.

[LaughingAlex]

But Plasma Beam is a questionite store item. Questionite is earned by playing the game or trading zen on the market for someone else's. It comes on some vehicles, sure, but that's a stretch.

Yeah it's kind of a grey area when it comes to the weapons themselves.  To get a rank 3 weapon you have to earn a total of I think 270k questionite or so.  The sheer amount of time is mind boggling to many here as it is, myself included, so I go for the rank 2 which I believe cost 180k questionite.  When you consider that one is lucky on q hour to get at most 15k q with an extreme AoE power build or the vehicle weapon incendiary rounds, it can be very time consuming.  Which is why some will just flip out the $ to get it.  Then theres the vehicles which cost 50-100 dollars no matter how you look at it; they cannot be obtained without real money involved on someones behalf.  Even if you spend 4000 globals on a vehicle, someone likely spent 50-100 dollars in boxes to get it.

16k per day is the max q you can get but often it takes about 30 minutes per 2k outside of Q hour.

[LaughingAlex]

The guy deleted everything he had on his account in a video, holy cow.  And someone already blamed me, *sighs*.  I didn't even say anything until he had already decided to leave.

What sickens me most is how people are treating people like him who've been seriously hurt and also spent a lot of money like that.  While a buyer beware is in order on the game now the fact that people treat others like trash that way.

It's saddening to say the least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrZi_Cxb01I&feature=youtu.be

:S

Where do these people draw the line?  I mean really.....

[BadWolf]

So.... am I allowed to say "I told you so" about Pay2Win and selling items with an in-game use, especially ones that are better (either subjectively or objectively) than what you can earn without RMT?

COH narrowly escaped a similar situation when it was discovered that the cash shop version of the Performance Shifter proc was about 3x better than the crafted version -- and was subsequently nerfed. The only saving grace was that the nerf happened before many people had caught on and bought them.

The issue isn't just about selling items with an in-game use, or even selling items with a better in-game use. It wasn't even about then nerfing those items after they were paid for. The issue the OP had was with an apparent pattern of selling overpowered items, then nerfing them just as they were putting out a new overpowered item. He felt that this seemed to indicate that PW wasn't so much concerned with game balance as they were with selling items. If they felt like Item A was overpowered, then they should have learned from their mistake by the time Item B came on sale. If they felt like Item B was balanced, then Item A should have been left alone.

A lot of the anger and confusion appeared (to my eyes as a disinterested observer who doesn't play CO) from people who tried to either argue that nerfing Item A was justified, or that selling it originally was an honest mistake, and not engaging with the idea of a pattern of behavior.

[LaughingAlex]

The issue isn't just about selling items with an in-game use, or even selling items with a better in-game use. It wasn't even about then nerfing those items after they were paid for. The issue the OP had was with an apparent pattern of selling overpowered items, then nerfing them just as they were putting out a new overpowered item. He felt that this seemed to indicate that PW wasn't so much concerned with game balance as they were with selling items. If they felt like Item A was overpowered, then they should have learned from their mistake by the time Item B came on sale. If they felt like Item B was balanced, then Item A should have been left alone.

A lot of the anger and confusion appeared (to my eyes as a disinterested observer who doesn't play CO) from people who tried to either argue that nerfing Item A was justified, or that selling it originally was an honest mistake, and not engaging with the idea of a pattern of behavior.

I fear alot of them lost any concept of cause and effect at this point.  The fact that a good number of CO players can "revictimize the victim", in this case revictimizing someone who feels cheated out of a lot of money really shows that.  So when something like the topic shows up, they just try to dodge the issue rather than actually come up with anything rational.  And then they start pointing fingers at whoever they happen to dislike or disagree with the most.

It's extremely off putting that these same people ask for nerfs to these overpowered items which may even be exactly as PWE intends if they are being malicious.  They are released overpowered items, scrubs complain and get the nerf that was likely planned anyways, those scrubs cheer and then rub it in for those who had realized they were ripped off and then those people quit in a rage that cannot be blamed.  Then the next overpowered item is released for the scrubs once again to complain about.  It's pure underhanded.

[Relitner]

The guy deleted everything he had on his account in a video, holy cow.  And someone already blamed me, *sighs*.  I didn't even say anything until he had already decided to leave.

What sickens me most is how people are treating people like him who've been seriously hurt and also spent a lot of money like that.  While a buyer beware is in order on the game now the fact that people treat others like trash that way.

It's saddening to say the least.

I chalk that up to "internet road rage". The interwebz truly brings out the worst in folks. In real-life, face to face interactions, there are only a select few who possess the sheer jerkdom required to be so ill-mannered as typically seen on many anonymous internet forums (present company excluded, of course).

[JennSpace]

I chalk that up to "internet road rage". The interwebz truly brings out the worst in folks. In real-life, face to face interactions, there are only a select few who possess the sheer jerkdom required to be so ill-mannered as typically seen on many anonymous internet forums (present company excluded, of course).

That's right Relitner, I once worked with a guy as my previous job, who was a tough guy on the Internet but when he got blasted by my ex-employer, he wasn't feeling so tough for some reason... When I see people like him on the web, I just laugh at them because you know they're just all talk and not a true menace. They're frustrated because they're pu**** irl so they try to act like they're big mens on the internet but they're just posers and I find that, frankly amusing! XDD

[LaughingAlex]

That's right Relitner, I once worked with a guy as my previous job, who was a tough guy on the Internet but when he got blasted by my ex-employer, he wasn't feeling so tough for some reason... When I see people like him on the web, I just laugh at them because you know they're just all talk and not a true menace. They're frustrated because they're pu**** irl so they try to act like they're big mens on the internet but they're just posers and I find that, frankly amusing! XDD

Yeah alot of internet trolls are like that, if you confront them in real life they often begin to shake a little.  The whole reason they are trolling is because they want to feel like the bad***, the hero when they aren't.

[Acanous]

There's an issue with pay to win content that I think we'll see some action on here that may define the industry.
If you pay for a product, and the seller alters that product or provides you with a different product(or one that does not work as advertised), that IS bait and switch, and the lawsuit has traction. In the world of MMOs, this is mostly avoided by paying for a pass to what is effectively a virtual theme park. The devs can alter anything in that park without having to reimburse you.
Pay to win, however, is a purchase, full stop. Its not even a rental. If they tamper with the product you've purchased, now they're in potential hot water. Even if there were some clause that treats the digital item as a rental, or they're protecting themselves by using cryptocurrency (bioware points, PWI dollars, what have you) there's new legislation in place due to the black market and Bitcoin that strip them of those protections.

If this actually goes to court, there's a pretty strong case a class action lawsuit would be successful.

[LaughingAlex]

There's an issue with pay to win content that I think we'll see some action on here that may define the industry.
If you pay for a product, and the seller alters that product or provides you with a different product(or one that does not work as advertised), that IS bait and switch, and the lawsuit has traction. In the world of MMOs, this is mostly avoided by paying for a pass to what is effectively a virtual theme park. The devs can alter anything in that park without having to reimburse you.
Pay to win, however, is a purchase, full stop. Its not even a rental. If they tamper with the product you've purchased, now they're in potential hot water. Even if there were some clause that treats the digital item as a rental, or they're protecting themselves by using cryptocurrency (bioware points, PWI dollars, what have you) there's new legislation in place due to the black market and Bitcoin that strip them of those protections.

If this actually goes to court, there's a pretty strong case a class action lawsuit would be successful.

Well nothing has been done yet, i don't see any legal actions being taken and the like.  But alot of damage was already done.  I mean some especially heavy contributers of the games community had already left.  We'll have to see.