The Darkside of CoH

[Dev7on]

Have you guys realized that since Issue 21 came to City of Heroes, Paragon Studios brung a darker concept to the game? With a destroyed Galaxy City, First Ward,  the death of Statesman and Sister Psyche, the revamp of Dark Astoria, and Night Ward. Issue 24 was suppose to bring even more dark concepts to the game. Here's a video of Issue 24.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjTAI_ozpZY

       ---Spoiler Alert!---

Calvin Scott died in Issue 24.

Here's a sneak peek of what Issue 25 is going to be like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9dVlNA1SMM

It was like the superhero TV show Heroes. You thought it was going to be an ordinary superhero show like the Justice League but, "NO!" It was dark from season 1!!!! If you saw the movie Watchmen it also had a dark concept toward superheroes.  :o

[Zombie Hustler]

I actually found i24 to be somewhat lighter than a couple of the previous issues. Yes, there were still some dark moments (I don't know that I'd count Calvin Scott in there, as a) Praetorian Calvin was Craaaa-zeee! and b) SPOILERS!), but there were several brighter moments, too. There is a generally happy and portentous ending to the Praetorian storylines overall (one in Paragon and one in Praetoria itself that come to mind), etc.

I think the Devs themselves have also noted that i25 was also going to be a bit lighter- as things get less dark before the storm that was to come.

But the Battalion was definitely going to bring the darkness, too.

[MWRuger]

I know this isn't popular view but I have plenty of darkness in real life and really don't need or want it in my escapism. Dark and broody gets one play from me and then I'll skip it after that.

I like the idea that the city loves it's heroes because they are heroes. They fight for what is right because it is right. Not because the world is shit and their dark past leaves them with no way to deal with it other than punching it. If I want scarring psychological trauma and guilt laden angst, I'll read Kafka.

[Tacitala]

I know this isn't popular view but I have plenty of darkness in real life and really don't need or want it in my escapism.

If I played through something very dark, I wanted it to have an ending where I could see that my character made a lasting impact.  There may have been some work to do, but I disliked the idea of the constant escalation of "you defeated one, but another one rises in it's place!".  That's why I could make my way through the DA stuff- the threat there was stopped, save for some lingering clean-up.

If I want scarring psychological trauma and guilt laden angst

I finished that line with "...I'll go see my family".

[Waffles]

Honestly? The lack of campness in the new arcs sort of made it really attractive to me.

It made you feel like more was at stake, rather than just "My army of steampunk clones shall rule the world with our plots!" or whatever, You felt like all your character has been through will mean nothing if you can't stop the growing threat, The shivans were only scouts, and took essentially our best and brightest to fend off, and we still could not save Galaxy City.

[The Fifth Horseman]

I like the idea that the city loves it's heroes because they are heroes. They fight for what is right because it is right. Not because the world is pancake and their dark past leaves them with no way to deal with it other than punching it. If I want scarring psychological trauma and guilt laden angst, I'll read Kafka.

There is nothing to stop them from starting as the latter and shifting to the former.
In fact, I somewhat prefer heroes who at their origin start with a personal agenda and only later make the conscious decision to use their power for a greater purpose. It's called "character development".  ;)

Serious doesn't mean dark, but sometimes you need it just to underline the scope and threat level of what the protagonists are dealing with. If nothing else, it makes their success this much more meaningful.

It made you feel like more was at stake, rather than just "My army of steampunk clones shall rule the world with our plots!" or whatever

Doesn't mean you can't have an army of steampunk doombots in a serious plotline, as long as it's done right.

[MWRuger]

There is nothing to stop them from starting as the latter and shifting to the former.
In fact, I somewhat prefer heroes who at their origin start with a personal agenda and only later make the conscious decision to use their power for a greater purpose. It's called "character development".  ;)

I don't have a problem with it as an element, I just don't want it as the standard.

Character development in a comic is one thing but in an MMO it is far more problematic. Your character is the way you say it is so you can have it as you like it, just write it in the bio. I certainly don't want the devs telling me how my character develops by shoehorning content.

[MWRuger]

Honestly? The lack of campness in the new arcs sort of made it really attractive to me.

It made you feel like more was at stake, rather than just "My army of steampunk clones shall rule the world with our plots!" or whatever, You felt like all your character has been through will mean nothing if you can't stop the growing threat, The shivans were only scouts, and took essentially our best and brightest to fend off, and we still could not save Galaxy City.

COH is not campy and has not been. It takes its canon seriously and there is no "Ok we know comics are stupid and superheroes are riduclous. We're in on the joke - Go rescue the ping pong ball delivery truck  that Foxbat hijacked" nonsense that made Champions such a disappointment.

There may be some angles that work better for you than others, but it's all meant to be taken seriously. Even Nemesis. There is definitely something besides just steam power behind his machinations. I don't know exactly what it is but his "campy" plot killed millions when you consider his part in the Rikti invasion. The death or destruction of Hero One is the consequence of what he did as is the destruction in Boomtown and the Rikti War Zone. How much bigger stakes do you want?

[Blackout]

I thought that CoH has always had a somewhat subtle somberness to it. I remember that paragon city at night, even in the early issues was quite....well "Dark" With boomtown and the hollows being basically warzones. All the dark and grim, but still quite homely looking brick buildings in kings row. And need I mention Mercy Isle?

The game has always had a lot of dark elements, but it has always had a lot of light one's too. It may be escapism to a certain degree but I feel that the dark stuff in it was homely in its own way, and has also given the universe a lot more depth, by making the bright seem brighter by comparison.

Anyway, just my ramblings, G'day!

[The Fifth Horseman]

Character development in a comic is one thing but in an MMO it is far more problematic. Your character is the way you say it is so you can have it as you like it, just write it in the bio. I certainly don't want the devs telling me how my character develops by shoehorning content.

A character starts the way we say they do. What they go through from there can - and should - contribute to developing their story over time. Nobody says event X had result Y on your character - something like X happened, and deciding what effect that has on your character is your prerogative.

[MWRuger]

A character starts the way we say they do. What they go through from there can - and should - contribute to developing their story over time. Nobody says event X had result Y on your character - something like X happened, and deciding what effect that has on your character is your prerogative.

Certainly! But I found most of the content reinforced what you were already doing. "To Save a Soul" for instance. That's a pretty dark plot. But you do stop it and save Madeline Casey's soul because you are a hero. Now you could view that as a exactly why you need to wipe the scum out or you could view it as a soul redeemed and the need to continue your fight.

To me, that's a good way to do it. Enough wiggle room that you can write the whole thing into your story and see it as you like.

Just another thing that made CoH great!

[MaidMercury]

I was an empath. And when I was invited to run that mission, "Who will die next",
Despite full stores, powers, I felt useless to revive Statesman.
:gonk:

Alas, that was part of the story arc....waa.

I didn't like the new changes, perhaps Marvel killing off Capt. America had something to do with
their game mods to CoH.....who knows.

[Waffles]

COH is not campy and has not been. It takes its canon seriously and there is no "Ok we know comics are stupid and superheroes are riduclous. We're in on the joke - Go rescue the ping pong ball delivery truck  that Foxbat hijacked" nonsense that made Champions such a disappointment.

There may be some angles that work better for you than others, but it's all meant to be taken seriously. Even Nemesis. There is definitely something besides just steam power behind his machinations. I don't know exactly what it is but his "campy" plot killed millions when you consider his part in the Rikti invasion. The death or destruction of Hero One is the consequence of what he did as is the destruction in Boomtown and the Rikti War Zone. How much bigger stakes do you want?

Perhaps I should have worded it differently, Nemesis is actually a very enticing villain.

However, in any other super-hero MMO, he'd have been reduced to a guy with a chalkboard, a ton of robots, and way too many paranoid delusional ideas, with the endgame being "TAKE OVER THE WORLD MUAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAA *wheeze*...HAHAHHAHAAA-" But in CoH, he was written in such a way that he was far more compelling of a character as a result.

In DCUO or CO, he'd basically just be a combination of The Riddler and Doctor Doom, and Calender man. (Yes, I know Doctor Doom is Marvel.) , and would monologue for hours on end about whatever-the-hell he's doing.

[azazel005]

I'd agree there was some definite ... well not necessarily darkness but as others have put in this thread 'seriousness' to what was happening. I felt it was well done for a MMORPG, because it's difficult for them to deal with consequences, and from a storytelling point of view you need consequence to provide impact, to make people feel like things count.

It's, in my mind, the key problem with story telling in MMORPGs nothing can have too many consequences because the world has to keep re-spawning the same mobs for everyone to kill and any forced hand of the PC will just cause a disconnection and irritation. Those heavier story lines towards the end of CoH benefited from keeping the games important characters in the limelight thus not infringing on our own agency and having so much content in instances. Something many people hate but in terms of impact it meant everything you killed stayed dead and didn't re-spawn again in 6 minutes.

So it was both more serious and well delivered in that seriousness.

[MWRuger]

I'd agree there was some definite ... well not necessarily darkness but as others have put in this thread 'seriousness' to what was happening. I felt it was well done for a MMORPG, because it's difficult for them to deal with consequences, and from a storytelling point of view you need consequence to provide impact, to make people feel like things count.

It's, in my mind, the key problem with story telling in MMORPGs nothing can have too many consequences because the world has to keep re-spawning the same mobs for everyone to kill and any forced hand of the PC will just cause a disconnection and irritation. Those heavier story lines towards the end of CoH benefited from keeping the games important characters in the limelight thus not infringing on our own agency and having so much content in instances. Something many people hate but in terms of impact it meant everything you killed stayed dead and didn't re-spawn again in 6 minutes.

So it was both more serious and well delivered in that seriousness.

It was pretty well balanced in that regard. Frankly, I think this must be near impossible to get right because so many other MMO's get it wrong.

You also need to factor in how much subpar writing there is in gaming in general. Most of it so threadbare it might as be the emperor's new clothes. Many games concentrate on amazing graphics and mechanics and then paste it on the most cliched story you can find. We've just come to accept that is the way it is.

But CoH really went in for deep story. I was refamiliarizing myself with "To Save a Soul" to make sure I remembered it all correctly and read this about Vanessa DeVore http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Carnival_of_Shadows That's a decent tale and you can see how you could spin other characters out of it. It enables character building and does not hinder it.

This is a comic book game, but it doesn't have to be based on a bad comic book.

[azazel005]

Not just bad writing in video games, but spawned from comic books which are not generally accepted as fine examples of literature.

For good or ill what went a long way in CoH was a real attempt to write something worthwhile. There was so much writing even in the little arcs. They weren't always hits but damn if they didn't try. In particular a lot of the RedSide writing had a great rhythm and interesting contacts all of which included you in the world but let you self interpret your role in things.

Even the repeatable paper/scanner missions made an effort to include some snappy dialogue.

[MWRuger]

Not just bad writing in video games, but spawned from comic books which are not generally accepted as fine examples of literature.

For good or ill what went a long way in CoH was a real attempt to write something worthwhile. There was so much writing even in the little arcs. They weren't always hits but damn if they didn't try. In particular a lot of the RedSide writing had a great rhythm and interesting contacts all of which included you in the world but let you self interpret your role in things.

Even the repeatable paper/scanner missions made an effort to include some snappy dialogue.

Agreed. I have seen so much bad writing in both comics and games that I shudder when someone says "ambitious story". It's so bad that when someone writes something in either medium that would likely be dismissed as average in a novel we laud it as a work of art because by comparison it surely is.

It makes me wonder sometimes if deep story telling is almost antithetical to the form. I hope not but it is so rare that it certainly seems that way/

[ukaserex]

Now that this thread makes me think about it, in my mind, it wasn't that it was darker, just more serious.

One of the newer stories - where you have this unexplained twin showing up, and Keith Nance thinking it's your character doing these shenanigans - and at the end, you learn that your evil double is "undercover" and ends up being heroic enough to die at the end.

Kind of bugged me that there wasn't a way to save the evil double.

For me, things in real life are serious enough. But, I don't want campy goofiness, either. I think CoH had a good balance between silly and serious.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Now that this thread makes me think about it, in my mind, it wasn't that it was darker, just more serious.

One of the newer stories - where you have this unexplained twin showing up, and Keith Nance thinking it's your character doing these shenanigans - and at the end, you learn that your evil double is "undercover" and ends up being heroic enough to die at the end.

Kind of bugged me that there wasn't a way to save the evil double.

For me, things in real life are serious enough. But, I don't want campy goofiness, either. I think CoH had a good balance between silly and serious.

I was under impression there were two doubles, one evil and one heroic ?

[MWRuger]

I was under impression there were two doubles, one evil and one heroic ?

I believe you to be correct. Let's run it again and find out!