Author Topic: The Praetorian Dilemma  (Read 6636 times)

Zombie Hustler

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The Praetorian Dilemma
« on: July 17, 2014, 01:21:02 AM »
Watched an old interview with Posi yesterday in which he mentioned the problems that arose with developing new content in a post-City of Villains world. Things I'd heard before, and which make a lot of practical sense, particularly from a business standpoint- what kinds of choices do you make in developing new content for, effectively, two different groups- do you create Hero only content, Villain only content, or try to find a middle ground somehow (usually by creating content for both sides). When you have only limited resources and time and a large player base, the decision is tough.

It got me to thinking about what I call the Praetorian Dilemma- in creating Going Rogue, they effectively made their job even more difficult, by providing yet a third "faction" demanding content.

Don't get me wrong- the Praetorian content is my favorite by far in the game, and I wish they'd been able to continue the Loyalist/Resistance throughline for First and Night Ward, all the way up to level 50. That, and proliferate similar story elements- going undercover, story-arc associated side switching (as opposed to the Morality Missions)- into both the Hero and Villain sides.

It made me wonder, though, given the limited resource pool problem, if they wouldn't have been better served by putting the Going Rogue elements into the existing Hero/Villain factions rather than creating Praetoria.

I'm not sure if it would have been more difficult to do (retrofitting, effectively)- particularly with the spaghetti code of the game- which may have had something to do with the choice to create a new set of zones to play with, but maybe it would have been a better solution overall?

On top of that, it got me wondering- where/how would they have been able to incorporate elements of the Praetorian storyline into H/V?

I'm guessing that organizations like Longbow (or, perhaps more likely, Wyvern) would have been used for the Vigilante faction- heroes operating in the Rogue Isles and/or Paragon City who walk a grey area between hero and villain, and who might end up turning completely in one direction or another. Hero Corps could have been another, though given their lower profile, they might have worked better in a series of story arcs echoing the character's and showing corruption and/or heroism.

I'm not sure what a suitable Rogue organization might have been, though. My first thought was Crey- an organization that is ultimately run by villainous types, but that clearly must have heroic (if naive) people working for it in humanitarian fashion. Another one that came to me that might have worked was the RIPD- Rogue Isles Police Division. It would have been an organization that would certainly have been rife with corruption but that also featured people who were genuinely interested in the well being of the citizens of the Rogue Isles. Perhaps a big storyline reveal might show that the founder/benefactor of the RIPD was actually a heroic personage of note or something.

They could also have worked some of the Co-Op zones into the storylines somehow- Warburg in particular comes to mind as a "grey area" zone where the machinations and goals of Marshal Blitz might have come into conflict with the Rogues/Vigilantes.


Kaos Arcanna

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 02:43:39 AM »
Watched an old interview with Posi yesterday in which he mentioned the problems that arose with developing new content in a post-City of Villains world. Things I'd heard before, and which make a lot of practical sense, particularly from a business standpoint- what kinds of choices do you make in developing new content for, effectively, two different groups- do you create Hero only content, Villain only content, or try to find a middle ground somehow (usually by creating content for both sides). When you have only limited resources and time and a large player base, the decision is tough.

It got me to thinking about what I call the Praetorian Dilemma- in creating Going Rogue, they effectively made their job even more difficult, by providing yet a third "faction" demanding content.

Don't get me wrong- the Praetorian content is my favorite by far in the game, and I wish they'd been able to continue the Loyalist/Resistance throughline for First and Night Ward, all the way up to level 50. That, and proliferate similar story elements- going undercover, story-arc associated side switching (as opposed to the Morality Missions)- into both the Hero and Villain sides.

It made me wonder, though, given the limited resource pool problem, if they wouldn't have been better served by putting the Going Rogue elements into the existing Hero/Villain factions rather than creating Praetoria.

I'm not sure if it would have been more difficult to do (retrofitting, effectively)- particularly with the spaghetti code of the game- which may have had something to do with the choice to create a new set of zones to play with, but maybe it would have been a better solution overall?

On top of that, it got me wondering- where/how would they have been able to incorporate elements of the Praetorian storyline into H/V?

I'm guessing that organizations like Longbow (or, perhaps more likely, Wyvern) would have been used for the Vigilante faction- heroes operating in the Rogue Isles and/or Paragon City who walk a grey area between hero and villain, and who might end up turning completely in one direction or another. Hero Corps could have been another, though given their lower profile, they might have worked better in a series of story arcs echoing the character's and showing corruption and/or heroism.

I'm not sure what a suitable Rogue organization might have been, though. My first thought was Crey- an organization that is ultimately run by villainous types, but that clearly must have heroic (if naive) people working for it in humanitarian fashion. Another one that came to me that might have worked was the RIPD- Rogue Isles Police Division. It would have been an organization that would certainly have been rife with corruption but that also featured people who were genuinely interested in the well being of the citizens of the Rogue Isles. Perhaps a big storyline reveal might show that the founder/benefactor of the RIPD was actually a heroic personage of note or something.

They could also have worked some of the Co-Op zones into the storylines somehow- Warburg in particular comes to mind as a "grey area" zone where the machinations and goals of Marshal Blitz might have come into conflict with the Rogues/Vigilantes.


I like those ideas. There were heroic people in the Rogue Isles like Sea Witch and her boyfriend and a few other heroes native to the Rogue Isles.

Honestly, when determining why people would follow Recluse, I went with the idea that his Mastermind powers included inhuman levels of charisma so that he could sway the public into believing he actually did CARE about their well-being and interest. In a way, having Sirroco leave the Rogue Isles would have made things worse there-- it might have been better if he continued to stay there and serve as a more positive role model ... perhaps secretly being a "heroic mentor" in the Rogue Isles while outwardly serving Recluse.




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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 05:46:27 AM »
I hope they don't jettison the entire world of Pretoria when they start work on CoH2. But so many people didn't enjoy it. They just need to find some way of making teaming easier.
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Myrmydon

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2014, 05:56:30 AM »
I really liked the Going Rogue play experience, however, I believe that Praetoria would have been better served as an Incarnate zone. That certainly would have allowed for much more content that raids going forward.

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2014, 07:16:02 AM »
I hope they don't jettison the entire world of Pretoria when they start work on CoH2.
In something like CoH2 I'd personally like to see a situation where Praetoria is being rebuilt with the help of heroes from "normal" Earth (a process hampered by non-Praetorian villains sneaking in to steal cool gadgets and set up power structures there). Characters of both worlds could pretty much hop between the two with impunity and undertake missions to help/hinder the rebuilding (or pursue personal goals). Praetorian Resistance and Loyalist options would still exist, the former trying to maintain relative anarchy and spread it to the normal world (as they trust anybody in charge) and the latter trying to build a new repressive regime behind a figurehead (since that is what they are most comfortable with). But a Praetorian could just as well just choose a path ignoring politics and following a more traditional hero/villain/vigilante/rogue idiom in either world.
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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2014, 04:14:43 PM »
God, I loved Praetoria. The game only got better Going Rogue and beyond but man I had fun imperial city and the underground. Underground was like a completely different game with the layout, textures, 3d sounds and spookieness.

Zombie Hustler

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2014, 04:54:19 PM »
I definitely hope they keep Praetoria in some form in a new game myself- as said, it was my favorite area.

That said, I'd like to see more of the Going Rogue mechanics implemented elsewhere, too. One thing that I thought looked promising in i24 was the inclusion of two arcs- one Rogue, one Vigilante. While the writing on them wasn't the greatest (one of them was fairly decent, the other not so much, though I can't recall offhand which was which), the notion that they might be providing some content for the "grey areas" of the game in Red and Bluesides was kind of cool.

I'm tempted to try and come up with a 1-50 arc for Red and Blueside along the lines of what was done in Praetoria. Maybe I can AE them if/when we get a game back...

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2014, 05:17:39 PM »
I'd love for them to finish the run so we could do a goldside only character. But this is a wish thread so why not?
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Tacitala

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 05:21:43 PM »
It's nice to hear I wasn't the only one who loved the look and feel of Praetoria.

My problem was that every Incarnate trial was centered on ruining Praetoria.  I understand that yes, it was a horrid place under the surface and that Tyrant and the Praetors were monsters but it drove me nuts that the "solution to the Praetorian problem" was to destroy the whole thing.  I would have been more than happy if they had kept the dimensions closed off from each other, save for the link at Pocket D, and just made more content.  Sometimes I wonder if there were times that the stories and some of the implications of various plots/characters/player choices made the main writers uncomfortable.
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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 05:34:17 PM »

I like those ideas. There were heroic people in the Rogue Isles like Sea Witch and her boyfriend and a few other heroes native to the Rogue Isles.

Honestly, when determining why people would follow Recluse, I went with the idea that his Mastermind powers included inhuman levels of charisma so that he could sway the public into believing he actually did CARE about their well-being and interest. In a way, having Sirroco leave the Rogue Isles would have made things worse there-- it might have been better if he continued to stay there and serve as a more positive role model ... perhaps secretly being a "heroic mentor" in the Rogue Isles while outwardly serving Recluse.

On the flip side, I saw Scirocco getting out as his own inspiration to others - "Hey, if Recluse couldn't stop him from leaving, maybe I can get out of here, too!"

And chalk up another vote for someone who loved the look of Praetoria. I spent DAYS wandering around there, finding all these little nooks and crannies as interesting places to film.

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 06:42:58 PM »
Actually, I think Pretoria, along with Dark Astoria was some of the most amazing things the old team did.


What hurt gold side was a couple of things. The initial level of difficulty was too high for casuals and newbies and not high enough for 4x8 crowd. By the time they fixed it it was already mostly deserted.

Second, it really did need a run all the way to 50. The RP'ers certainly would want that. It also need an AE building somewhere. Maybe someplace underground in the First ward.

Third, better personal storage of some kind. Without SG's that made it hard.

Fourth, non-incarnate high level stuff. The dev's said that there was Pretoria burnout among the players after all the I-Trials and no more content was planned for Pretoria. Well, yes if all you did was grindy I-Trials then, yeah, I would be burned out on Pretoria as well.
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Zombie Hustler

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 07:56:15 PM »
What hurt gold side was a couple of things. The initial level of difficulty was too high for casuals and newbies and not high enough for 4x8 crowd. By the time they fixed it it was already mostly deserted.

That's true. I remember initially being frustrated by how dang tough it was; packs of ghouls were crazy!

Either they evened it out, or else I just got better at navigating it (and all the extra perks of Vet rewards and the market didn't hurt). I always found myself having to turn off the XP so I wouldn't outlevel the missions on subsequent runs.

Quote
Second, it really did need a run all the way to 50. The RP'ers certainly would want that. It also need an AE building somewhere. Maybe someplace underground in the First ward.

The sheer size of First Ward would easily lend itself to an extension of the storyline in that region alone. Heck, the southern quarter of the zone really didn't even get much use in the FW story arc (and IIRC, you finished the story arc before hitting levels that would make venturing into those Fury infested zones safe). Same with Night ward, by extension.

I'd have really loved to see them put in an abandoned lab/workshop for inventions as well as a Marketplace (probably a Swapmeet or something in the Resistance refugee area). That would have done a lot to make FW more suitable as a zone. That, plus the Apocalypse set that was set to come out on the market would have made FW one of my favorite staging areas.

(Slight aside: I felt that the Devs went a little bit overboard with the Portals that could take people to just about every location at the end there. Yes, it made travel more convenient, but at the cost of- to me- flavor.)

Quote
Fourth, non-incarnate high level stuff. The dev's said that there was Pretoria burnout among the players after all the I-Trials and no more content was planned for Pretoria. Well, yes if all you did was grindy I-Trials then, yeah, I would be burned out on Pretoria as well.

True. I never got tired of it myself. One of the things that I disliked about the I-Trials was how everyone sped through them so fast, that I didn't get much of a chance to see several of the cut-scenes for them (which contained a ton of story content). I also never got to run a full Hamidon I-Trial (whatever it was called), nor the Television one. I didn't ever finish the Tyrant one, but I got most of the way through (by the end, most of the group had dropped, which only left 2 or 3 of us to take on- Black Swan, maybe? Or maybe it was the Hunter. We couldn't do it, and didn't even make it to Tyrant.)

Zombie Hustler

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 07:58:01 PM »
Speaking of, there is a cool mission in i24 that involves actually going back and trying to save Praetoria (or a part of it), rather than just throwing in the towel like a lot of the I-Trials did. Plus it has one of the coolest storyline missions involving you taking on the role of Anti-Matter.

Between that, and the two Praetorian related story arcs (a Brickstown one and a St. Martial one), they made for a fairly decent bookend on Praetoria.

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2014, 12:04:26 AM »
On the flip side, I saw Scirocco getting out as his own inspiration to others - "Hey, if Recluse couldn't stop him from leaving, maybe I can get out of here, too!"

And chalk up another vote for someone who loved the look of Praetoria. I spent DAYS wandering around there, finding all these little nooks and crannies as interesting places to film.

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Agreed. I really wanted to see Scir get the hell out of that place, even if it meant not having him around as a contact anymore.
Thanks to Kestrel, I'm a little biased about the guy, though. (Okay, maybe a lot biased...  ;D) But going full-on hero just seemed like the best path for him.

And mark me down as another player who really liked Praetoria. Imperial City in particular was a gorgeous map, and I had a great time running a fair few characters through the entire lot of it. I also enjoyed almost all of the iTrials... but, again, I'm biased. I was always fond of big, multi-team content.

Speaking of, there is a cool mission in i24 that involves actually going back and trying to save Praetoria (or a part of it), rather than just throwing in the towel like a lot of the I-Trials did. Plus it has one of the coolest storyline missions involving you taking on the role of Anti-Matter.

Between that, and the two Praetorian related story arcs (a Brickstown one and a St. Martial one), they made for a fairly decent bookend on Praetoria.

Last Bastion... That really was a very cool arc, although it made me sad.

I ran it with Shade-in-Shadow, my first Praetorian character. She was always the most loyal of my responsibility-track loyalists, and being one of my few role-playing characters had a pretty well-developed personality and story of her own. Anti-matter, for all his faults, was someone she thought of as a friend. I essentially felt like even though she'd understand why he did what he did, she'd never really accept that it was the only potential solution to the problem. And she'd miss the misguided bone-head.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:27:14 AM by Brightfires »
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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2014, 02:12:39 AM »
Praetoria was my favorite world in CoX.  I really really wish the development team (and I think it was more a marketing decision) had learned their lesson after CoV launched and hadn't divided the world into 3rds - goldside.  That's what hurt the game the most imo.  Putting players in the impossible decision of blue, red or gold with no way to crossover at first (and later taking lots of levels and/or alignment change arcs).  Not having access to SGs, storage, your inf, etc. was a huge turn-off.  To me, that's what was so hard about Praetoria... the challenge was greater, yes (for veteran players I imagine), but without being able to kit out your characters and have access to bases and money made it much harder than blue (easiest) and red (medium).

Anyway, I'd love to be able to roll all the way to 50 without having to go to Prime.  It would then be cool to have end-game trials goldside where you're attempting the opposite of the itrials.

In fact, I'd really like to see all the TFs/SFs get the 'dark mirror' treatment where you can run it from the opposite perspective with the opposite alignment.  That'd make for a way to double those big reward arcs quickly and without having to create all new stories.


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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2014, 08:01:31 PM »
Pratoria was new territory if you got bored with Paragon.
I didn't like the level being only 19 or so, if I remember correctly..?

I joined many TF's there but exploring was kind of lonely.

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2014, 04:40:57 AM »
The main story arc went to 20... then there was expanded content in First Ward and Night Ward that got you to 39 IIRC.

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2014, 04:39:45 PM »
Was never a fan of praetoria. It locked you out of so much stuff that was available in the other zones. I can understand why they did that, for story purposes, but it still didn't feel right to me.

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2014, 08:43:19 PM »
I never got Praetoria Fatigue, I was quite happy with whatever content was being focused on story-wise. One more Praetorian zone, just so there was the whole 1-50 range, would have been nice.

Though just a plain ol new 40-50 zone would have been nice as well, what was Kalestii Wharf's level range supposed to be?

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Re: The Praetorian Dilemma
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2014, 12:37:25 AM »
Praetoria was one of the things I never got around to exploring in the game.  Mostly because I don't really like the "evil parallel world" story conceit (unless everybody evil wears goatees  ;))  And on my earlier machine, I found the environment gave my clunky build some problems with clunky rendering.

I'll try and do a real run through as one of my celebratory explorations when we get the game back.
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