Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?

[avelworldcreator]

City of Villains: Silver Mantis, Westin Phipps...

Silver Mantis is *definitely* suggestive with some of the stuff she says when she is getting hit... definite S&M connotation there.

Only Silver Mantis meets the criteria. The closest to anything of that nature by Phipps is him musing about what could be done with a couple of blind girls and their desperate mother but not enough is suggested to make it "provocative". I just read the mission synopsis. Excellent character development.

[voltknuckle]

I think we should be focusing on NCsoft rather than harping on B&S so much.

the more you hate it, the stronger it gets.

so what that it was make by the korean equivalent of rob liefield?
so what is has rendered bits and tits?

just focusing on B&S just nips at the tail of the snake, when we should be nailing the head: NCSoft itself!

[Victoria Victrix]

I don't really see the point of such an action, except as a petulant temper tantrum.

I love COH.  I preordered, I played since launch, and I'm sorry to see it go.  But turning that into some sort of pointless vendetta against NCSoft is really not a good use of anyone's time or energy.

You have made a single post on this forum, and clearly have not troubled yourself to read anything else on it.  The actions of those of us here against NCSoft are not a "petulant temper tantrum" as you so impolitely put it.  They are intended to make it so painful for NCSoft to cybersquat on the code and IP of CoH that they will sell it to someone else who will revive the game.

But of course, you are entitled to your unicornish opinion.

[LuchRi]

You know what? I really hope we can't influence the ESRB rating, because I don't think we should.

First, while htis may be in some way about Blade and Soul for NCsoft, the issue is that they shut down a money making game with a good fan base and cut down on good honest jobs for no real reason. We start inviting the ideas of censorship and subjective 'decency' into the mix and we arm them. The facts are our best tool of offense. Further I seriously dislike the idea of encouraging any censorship in video games. Should kids be able to play games that are too violent? I don't think so. Do some games pointlessly objectify the women in them? Yes, of course. But censorship begets censorship and we can't throw out the art we may not like without risking the art others may not like.

I think the morality argument is something huge, something we can't really cover adequately on a simple forum nor should we. Maybe not everyone likes games such as borderlands for example, or aspects in the witcher or the like... but these games are labors of love, works of art that have creators that have something ot say, and might be risked if we invite scruteny.

Also, an M rating might up sales. Historically it has for many games since it seems 'cooler' and 'grittier', and lets face it kids want what seems 'grown up'. That would only help NCsoft

[DWRoelands]

You have made a single post on this forum, and clearly have not troubled yourself to read anything else on it.

It's a mistake to presume that someone is uninformed simply because they don't share your point of view.  I've been following the shutdown of COH with great interest, because I share the hope that it might be saved or resurrected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unicornish"; I presume that you've decided to insult me personally because I disagree with you.  That's your prerogative, I suppose.

[DrakeGrimm]

It's a mistake to presume that someone is uninformed simply because they don't share your point of view.  I've been following the shutdown of COH with great interest, because I share the hope that it might be saved or resurrected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unicornish"; I presume that you've decided to insult me personally because I disagree with you.  That's your prerogative, I suppose.

See. If you read the forums before opening your mouth, you'd know what she meant. Congratulations on proving her point.

[DWRoelands]

See. If you read the forums before opening your mouth, you'd know what she meant. Congratulations on proving her point.

I read forums for information, not to learn the local code words that are used to insult people for the high crime of having a different opinion.

[avelworldcreator]

I read forums for information, not to learn the local code words that are used to insult people for the high crime of having a different opinion.

Do you have any idea who the person called you that is? Right now she has ample reason to be extremely upset with NCSoft over this issue. Her reasons are spelled out in a letter she sent to the company president and shared with the community - and is putting her complaint and call for boycott into all her books. She's a New York Times best selling author. "Unicorn" is a code word for a certain creature that lives under bridges and threatens billy goats and the Fellowship of the Ring. There is an odd filter here that changes that mythical creature's name to "Unicorn" hence the usage.

[DWRoelands]

There is an odd filter here that changes that mythical creature's name to "Unicorn" hence the usage.

I'm happy for her publishing success, and I wish her well in her future endeavors.  She's also the sort of person that insults people for having an opinion that differs from hers.

As I said, that's her prerogative.  It does not incline me to take her seriously, though.

[DrakeGrimm]

I'm happy for her publishing success, and I wish her well in her future endeavors.  She's also the sort of person that insults people for having an opinion that differs from hers.

As I said, that's her prerogative.  It does not incline me to take her seriously, though.

You opened with insults and got like in return. Welcome to the human race.

[Lily Barclay]

You opened with insults and got like in return. Welcome to the human race.

This. You can't insult people and not expect retaliation. Effectively, you insulted people for their opinion, then got upset when they returned the favor.

[DWRoelands]

You opened with insults

Demonstrably false.  I insulted no one.

Look, I see what's going on here.  I'm the new guy.  Because I don't have as many posts as the rest of you, and because I dared to disagree with one of your long-standing members, I'm now the enemy.

Enjoy your insular clique.

[avelworldcreator]

I'm happy for her publishing success, and I wish her well in her future endeavors.  She's also the sort of person that insults people for having an opinion that differs from hers.

As I said, that's her prerogative.  It does not incline me to take her seriously, though.

That's what's getting people upset with you here. You are exhibiting a few traits that tend to shout "unicorn" here (and I'm just trying to avoid the board censor - I'm sure you know I'm intending to say). Right now there is a watch for corporate shills and you have all the signs. It might seem unfair, but that's what the situation is. What you had was a person of high standing not only in this community but in the physical world react strongly to your actions. The fact that you don't even know who this person actually is speaks volumes.

The community isn't that insular. All communities develop common patterns and significant members. When you insult the latter you tend to draw the communities ire.

I don't agree your post count should have been brought so strongly into consideration, but I tried drawing your attention to the history of the speaker so that you would have some insight into what was behind and and understand that you shouldn't take it as personally as you have.

[Lily Barclay]

Demonstrably false.  I insulted no one.

Look, I see what's going on here.  I'm the new guy.  Because I don't have as many posts as the rest of you, and because I dared to disagree with one of your long-standing members, I'm now the enemy.

Enjoy your insular clique.

You told everyone their ideas were a petulant tempertantrum. How is that not insulting?

[TonyV]

You told everyone their ideas were a petulant tempertantrum. How is that not insulting?

I'm not moderating VV's post precisely because of this.  Incidentally, this is also why I always encouraged people who are being griefed to be as nice as they can, because the GMs will see both sides of the conversation in the logs, and if she or he perceives it just as two people fighting each other, not a lot will happen.  Such is the case here.

Look, there are a lot of people here with a lot of different opinions.  Some people agree with you, that retaliating against NCsoft isn't productive or worthwhile.  And you know, I'm good with that, I really am.  But Lily is right, you did set the tone of the conversation by using phrases such as "petulant temper tantrum" and "pointless vendetta."  VV simply responded in a similar tone.  If you didn't want such a response, you really should have not adopted the tone you initially did.  There are much more tactful ways to express your opinion that wouldn't have drawn such a response.  Check out LuchRi's post right after VV's for a great example.  VV undoubtedly disagrees with LuchRi also, but because the tone is entirely different--one of discussion and not accusation--the response has been quite different as well.

Nevertheless, I'm not trying to shut you up or drive you away.  You don't have to agree with everyone and everything here to participate in these forums.  Hopefully you understand that they're not just a "Okay, here's how we're out to screw NCsoft!" arena, and there are lots of other reasons to stick around, such as: keeping in touch with other CoH players, checking up on news and information, participating in other events, keeping track of the City Sunset project, etc.

Now, having said that, I think enough dogpiling has taken place and there's not much point to posting more "Yeah, me too!" messages.  Please stick to the topic at hand...

[JaguarX]

Ok, I think some may be jumping the gun here a bit.

IMO,

I think he only said the action of this subject, the ERB rating thing, is a petulant temper tantrum which doesn't seem to indicate or imply that he meant that every idea or everyone was a petulant temper tantrum. That part is seemingly being blown out of proportion. However, using the words petulant temper tantrum is a poor choice of words there.

He seems to be new here, maybe not used to how things work around here, so let's not get nasty over probably a simple mistake. We all probably have used words in the past that came off as harsher than intended.

Let's give the man the benefit of the doubt and try to "teach" him without bashing him over the head. Although unfortunately given the situation is already tense, be patient as more than likely everyone is on the defensive right now but give it a moment and come back to it. I think sometimes it's best to give the person a chance to clarify instead of jumping on their back immediately and putting them on the defensive.

Remember each forum have different unwritten rules which are not always obvious to new people. Let's not hope down people's throat especially if they are relatively new over simple mistakes.


But, Dwroeland, remember there are ways to get the point across and disagreeing without coming off as attacking the person. It doesn't seem you meant it as an attack but when an action of a person is said to be a mere tantrum tantrum, then it may be perceived as if you are saying they are doing nothing but throwing a tantrum and thus a personal attack. I hope even as harsh as the lesson was meted out, I hope the lesson was learned anyways and hope it won't sour your experience here.

We are usually friendly, welcoming, but given the situation people are a little short on patience on perceived insults sometimes. It just has been some very tense times here. I'm sure you have some good ideas to help the cause and feel free to share.

[JaguarX]

 Tony V beat me to it.

"Dang it Tony!!"

[DrakeGrimm]

Ok, I think some may be jumping the gun here a bit.

IMO,

I think he only said the action of this subject, the ERB rating thing, is a petulant temper tantrum which doesn't seem to indicate or imply that he meant that every idea or everyone was a petulant temper tantrum. That part is seemingly being blown out of proportion. However, using the words petulant temper tantrum is a poor choice of words there.

That's exactly why those of us voicing our displeasure have grievance, Jaguar. It's a simple matter of social grace, one even I--who has Asperger's and suffers in social context greatly--pick up on. You do not walk into a community and announce yourself by singling out an action being discussed by long-standing members of said community and use language like 'petulant temper tantrum' and 'pointless vendetta.'

As for you, DW, our issue is not with your contrary opinion. Our issue is with how you chose to express it. There is a huge bloody difference, mate.

[Kaiser Tarantula]

Back on the subject, I'm kinda in agreement with those who say we should not be trying to influence the ESRB rating of Blade & Soul.  I stand by this opinion for two reasons.

First, I disagree with the idea of censorship on a fundamental level.  I do not feel governments (or worse, private organizations), should be able to use ratings or other means to limit the sales of games.  I realize that participation in ESRB ratings is technically voluntary, but it's a de facto institution, and if your game does not have an ESRB rating, most retailers are going to be leery of stocking it.  Further, many retailers can and do take ESRB ratings into account, so even though technically the ESRB censors nothing on its own, the effect an unfavorably-high ESRB rating has on a game renders it a form of censorship.  If the ESRB were to shut down tomorrow, and parents were actually required to research the video games they share with their kids, I personally wouldn't bat an eyelash.

Yes, I believe that Blade & Soul demonstrates tasteless sexual objectification of women prominently.  I encourage people who are offended by such to avoid purchasing the game on account of that, in order to force companies to reconsider such honestly tacky oversexualization (or at the very least, give players an alternative to it, like CoH does.)  I cannot, however, endorse using censorship via the ESRB to force the issue.

The second reason is that, to be totally honest, I feel that attempting to use ESRB ratings to harm Blade & Soul is somewhat misaimed and ultimately won't be that effective.  Even though NCsoft is really banking on Blade & Soul being a hit, it's still just one game in NCsoft's catalogue, and furthermore it's a brand-new game to boot.  If it fails, NCsoft will hurt, but it's not a long-term investment, and they won't have wasted too much money developing it yet.  They've still got their Korean games, the Lineage series, and the Guild Wars series, and potentially Wildstar if the latter doesn't become vaporware.

In my opinion, all of the effort attempting to censor Anime Loli Simulator 2012 (Pedobear-Approved) via the ESRB could be better spent generating more bad press against NCsoft and its business practices directly.  If we can convince investors that NCsoft will mishandle the money they're given and that holding onto NCsoft stock is the equivalent of throwing money away (and given their recent stock prices, I honestly think it is), then we win - NCsoft will be forced to make more and more drastic business decisions to stay afloat and retain investors, or fail as a company.  The carrot we've been dangling - selling or licensing CoH to a third party in order to reopen the game - becomes a lot more appealing at this point.

Even if we were to succeed in giving B&S a rating that would cause retailers to avoid carrying it, what have we achieved?  We've lowered the potential playerbase of one game in NCsoft's library, and possibly earned some enmity from its playerbase, which doesn't do our cause any favors in the long run.  To be blunt, I feel we have better options.

[LadyWizard]

I was never able to figure out what constituted the "suggestive themes" listed on the CoH rating description.  Pardon the pun, but does anyone have any ...suggestions... as to what they were?

Let's see Praetoria had large chunk... feeding cops to zombies, murder and coverup, Swan's erm costume.  I know there was at least one female tank I teamed with somehow did a "barbie doll" nude costume