Company Public Relations

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

...the horrible truth...AE is Dr Aeon's final horrible weapon against heroes--and villains--everywhere. ;)

I've seen the theory that AE killed CoH, if that's what you're referring to. The truth I think is a little more complicated. AE had its problems, but the bigger problem was it didn't go far enough. But that's a topic for another time and another thread.

[DrakeGrimm]

No, I was mostly just making a joke about how big a pain in the butt AE is to work with, from a creative stand point. :P

[eabrace]

BUT... DDO especially at the upper levels and the overly-vaunted "endgame" is a raid-fest, pure and simple.

Speaking as a Master Mechanic trapmonkey who prefers to solo as much as possible:  I can't say you're entirely wrong.  But that's gotten much better with the Menace of the Underdark expansion.  And I get enough Turbine Points every month to allow me to fill out my party with hirelings when I'm solo before I go tromping around in dungeons.  The hireling AI leaves something to be desired, and I'm not saying the game is perfect, but it's made some improvements recently.

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

Meh. My real problem is with the entire industry, I guess. I was one of the many hard-core gamers who foresaw computers becoming a big gaming platform clear back in the late 80s with early efforts like Island of Kesmai. Even tried to pull together a game of my own, but that's another story.

My problem is that NONE of the games on the market even try to come close to what we were doing with a bag of dice, a pile of books, and a notebook 30 plus years ago. They're all for the most part stuck in the "kill 10 rats, get thru the levelling as quick as possible, and then do endless pointless raids" model. CoH is one of the few which DIDN'T go that way for the longest time. Most of the MMOs out there deserve the "RPG" because the players put it in DESPITE the design, not because of it.

Some day one of them is going to realize all the other possibilties inherent in the idea of a true RPG. I don't think it's any coincidence that you're seeing a resurgence of popularity of "pen and paper" RP  games at the same time the interest in MMOs seems to be waning.

MMO design has stagnated pretty much since WoW came to dominate the market. Paragon Studios was just damn near the only design shop left that was innovating, and even they were only nibbling around the edges. But... not really relevant. I don't have a hundred million and a design shop of my own to do it right, and with people conditioned by the whole raid end-game folderol not sure a real role-playing world would even sell now. Sorry for the threadjack, carry on.

[Segev]

Just a note: pen-and-paper RPGs are still out there. I'm an avid pnp gamer, myself, though I do most of my gaming online via IRC, it's just using the chat as a medium for the role playing. It runs otherwise as it would at a table.

MMOs are a different sort of beast. They are in the "hack and slash" mindset because it's an easy one to program. Innovation "around the edges" is precisely what is needed to erode the barriers to changing that paradigm. Because enough nibbling at the edges will eventually lead to something that really works and will be the starting point of the next big sweep of ways of doing things.

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

(shrug) I still both play and run pen and paper games. Could do way more of them if there were more hours in the day. As I've tried to explain to my group of players, I just can't spend every waking hour of every weekend playing or gamesmastering, much as they'd like me to. Online games are a LOT more convenient, even if they aren't anywhere near as interesting or satisfying.

I think that the only reason MMOs are considered a different beast is that is how they've been implemented. There's a market *begging* for an MMO version of exactly what good PnP games supply - a growing, evolving, changing world where the players can have real input into what happens. Instead what we get over and over is the same old "kill 10 rats" games with increasingly sophisticated graphics and a light layering of story and dialog. Oh, and I suppose in fairness it's worth mentioning things like Second Life where there's NO structure and you can do anything you want, but that's taking things too far in another direction.

MMOs could be SO much more, and they don't even have to figure out WHAT that "more" might be. They simply need to look at what the designers and gamesmasters of traditional RP games have been doing for over 30 years and follow their lead. AND learn that not being able to foresee all ends is part of what makes a real role-playing experience so interesting.

Paragon Studios was making some steps in that direction, which is why they were still getting two subs from me *despite* making some design decisions I deplored. I thought adding "raids" into CoH was a huge mistake, forever altering the flavor of the game and taking it in exactly the wrong direction, and said so quite vociferously in the feedback threads at the time. Their new dynamic view of the world through the eyes of the current team leader was a huge if far too limited step in the right direction. Sadly, we'll never know now if they intended to keep pushing toward a dynamic, changeable world or not.

Oh yeah... and why are we talking about this in this thread anyway? I forget. (grin)

[DrakeGrimm]

...I miss pen and paper games...

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

Working on one in parallel with this post, actually. Well, instead of a pen I'm using a keyboard, and instead of paper I'm using googledocs, but you get the idea.

[Segev]

Well, this isn't the right thread for it, so I'll make this my last post about it in this thread...

But in the spirit of "saving CoH," establishing some space for people to run CoH-style games online might not be a bad idea. Examination of what we are allowed to use from the character creator once Nov. 30 rolls past may be required, but if you really want to explore making an online thing wherein pen-and-paper levels of play can be done, making a sort of "actor's studio" thing that doesn't directly utilize CoH properties other than the character models of player-made characters might not be a bad starting place for some aspect of that "plan Z" people talk about.

I suggest starting a new thread on this if people really want to discuss it further; I don't have solid enough ideas to formulate an opening post thereof, and I really should get to bed before I am unable to get up in time for church in the morning, so I won't start said thread myself. Not tonight, anyway.

[Scott Jackson]

We could use your thoughts, both in terms of overall game design goals, and in the specifics of what CoH did/didn't do well related to PnP games, roleplaying, etc.  Check out the forum section labeled "City Sunset" (not entirely accurately) and see if you want to help Plan Z get a solid start with your input on these matters.

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

I'll try to make time to stop in one of these days.

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

We could use your thoughts, both in terms of overall game design goals, and in the specifics of what CoH did/didn't do well related to PnP games, roleplaying, etc.  Check out the forum section labeled "City Sunset" (not entirely accurately) and see if you want to help Plan Z get a solid start with your input on these matters.

Are you talking here, or the official forums? I am not finding a "City Sunset" section here, unless I just don't have access or something. I coulda sworn I'd seen that section here at some point.

[eabrace]

Are you talking here, or the official forums? I am not finding a "City Sunset" section here, unless I just don't have access or something. I coulda sworn I'd seen that section here at some point.

here:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,138.0.html

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

Houston, we have a problem.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JyUcNZYr_EVVhWaWp0UktDRnc/edit

[eabrace]

Well, I have a problem, but it's because I'm at work right now and not at home.

The proxy server is refusing connections

Firefox is configured to use a proxy server that is refusing connections.

I might have to wait until I get home tonight see what the problem you're referring to is. :)

[Codewalker]

It's because somebody assigned you Bug Hunter as a primary group, and primary groups determine which boards you can and can't see...

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

It's because somebody assigned you Bug Hunter as a primary group, and primary groups determine which boards you can and can't see...

(grin) There's a certain irony in that, and I was guessing it was something along those lines. Thanks much for the fix, I can see it again now.

[Rae]

Is it worth sending NC Soft's PR agency copies of the articles/comic strips/Facebook groups/Twitter noise/copy of Tim's video?

Maybe if we can convince their PR agency that this is a very bad thing NC Soft are doing, they might be able to talk NC Soft into realising they need to do /something/ to address the issue. (Ideally, in our favour, but on the other hand, I suppose it could also swing them into mitigation mode and they could find a way to spin it to make us look like raving crazies.) I'm pretty sure it's not good for business to have the unofficial title of the MMO killer. Especially when you're publishing MMOs.

I realise they probably have a cuttings agency, but if most of our noise is online, is it even remotely possible they haven't simply haven't realised the scope of the outcry, and the PR disaster this could be for them?

..probably not. I dunno. Anyone? VV seems to be the authority on these things :)

http://www.hkstrategies.com/NCsoft_West_Selects_Hill_Knowlton_Strategies_as_Agency_of_Record

[Soundtrack]

Is it worth sending NC Soft's PR agency copies of the articles/comic strips/Facebook groups/Twitter noise/copy of Tim's video?

Maybe if we can convince their PR agency that this is a very bad thing NC Soft are doing, they might be able to talk NC Soft into realising they need to do /something/ to address the issue. (Ideally, in our favour, but on the other hand, I suppose it could also swing them into mitigation mode and they could find a way to spin it to make us look like raving crazies.) I'm pretty sure it's not good for business to have the unofficial title of the MMO killer. Especially when you're publishing MMOs.

I realise they probably have a cuttings agency, but if most of our noise is online, is it even remotely possible they haven't simply haven't realised the scope of the outcry, and the PR disaster this could be for them?

..probably not. I dunno. Anyone? VV seems to be the authority on these things :)

http://www.hkstrategies.com/NCsoft_West_Selects_Hill_Knowlton_Strategies_as_Agency_of_Record

Maybe in addition to asking "is it worth" to send...we can ask, "Would it hurt?"  :)

I say go for it! But I'm just one voice. :)

[Rae]

I may well do so :) I'll hang fire in case someone comes forward saying it's a bad idea, though. I'm nothing if not indecisive :D