The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release

[Taceus Jiwede]

Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

There never was an unauthorized leak by an NCSOFT employee.  It was a sanctioned act with the intent to manipulate the SCORE team into rebuilding the game into something that could be legitimately released back onto the market.    No one inside SCORE need know that they were played.   No one need know if, or how many, of their fellow players were actually working for NCSOFT.

It would be a fantastic outcome.

Remember, you heard about it here first.

I have already reposted it all over the social media claiming it as inarguable fact.  Gotta give it some traction ;)

[Eiko-chan]

I also believe what started out as Alpha-style testing for their work on the reverse engineering side of things, where they brought in a few friends at a time, slowly shifted to a full-blown, official secret server.

According to leaks, the server is a fully functional server, not a testing environment.

[ABagOfCandy]

Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

There never was an unauthorized leak by an NCSOFT employee.  It was a sanctioned act with the intent to manipulate the SCORE team into rebuilding the game into something that could be legitimately released back onto the market.    No one inside SCORE need know that they were played.   No one need know if, or how many, of their fellow players were actually working for NCSOFT.

It would be a fantastic outcome.

Remember, you heard about it here first.

This theory has hope, speculation, and a dash of possibility. MY FAVORITE KIND OF CONSPIRACY! I'll admit, that actually made me feel better.

[weenus]

According to leaks, the server is a fully functional server, not a testing environment.

I'm involved in closed alpha tests right now that could be released to public market in their current state by industry standards, the server functioning doesn't really mean they're not still working on it, improving it or optimizing it for larger population. I've also seen plenty of game servers that work fine with a certain number of players and take a total nose dive the moment you go above a certain line, there's a lot of things that could be holding it in testing status even if leakers didn't see them outright.

[Super Atom]

I'm involved in closed alpha tests right now that could be released to public market in their current state by industry standards, the server functioning doesn't really mean they're not still working on it, improving it or optimizing it for larger population. I've also seen plenty of game servers that work fine with a certain number of players and take a total nose dive the moment you go above a certain line, there's a lot of things that could be holding it in testing status even if leakers didn't see them outright.

You have no proof of anything you've said. This is someone who was on the server saying it isn't in dev. It's time for proof, plenty of ways to do so without risking anything. Show dev discussion with forum timestamp. Show video of working on code. Show anything that will prove anything. Otherwise it just looks like were being lied to.

[weenus]

You have no proof of anything you've said. This is someone who was on the server saying it isn't in dev. It's time for proof, plenty of ways to do so without risking anything. Show dev discussion with forum timestamp. Show video of working on code. Show anything that will prove anything. Otherwise it just looks like were being lied to.

Please unclamp your jaws from my head, thank you.

I'm not saying anything definitive, I don't require "proof", I'm sure anyone in here who has been playing MMO's as far back as CoH's launch has been in plenty of alpha and beta tests over the years and can recall games that were even more fun during beta. Off the top of my head I can think of Age of Conan and the original Planetside, they ran, they functioned, the devs were still working on them. It's just food for thought, I'm not trying to disprove anything anyone said, I'm not disputing a claim, I'm just offering the point that a server running well does not always mean development has ended, or it's at a state that a developer is happy with.

[Super Atom]

Please unclamp your jaws from my head, thank you.

I'm not saying anything definitive, I don't require "proof", I'm sure anyone in here who has been playing MMO's as far back as CoH's launch has been in plenty of alpha and beta tests over the years and can recall games that were even more fun during beta. Off the top of my head I can think of Age of Conan and the original Planetside, they ran, they functioned, the devs were still working on them. It's just food for thought, I'm not trying to disprove anything anyone said, I'm not disputing a claim, I'm just offering the point that a server running well does not always mean development has ended, or it's at a state that a developer is happy with.

I'm not clamping anything, I'm telling you that the people have stated they are not developing it any further and have asked for some proof to prove they are so we can know who we can trust.

[primeknight]

I don't believe it would have ever been released a quote from the Reddit Mole:

The policy was in place from at least 2013. Please be careful about assigning malice to these policies. We are talking about people willing to risk their personal freedom to keep the world alive and maintaining strict secrecy with harsh consequences was just how it had to be done in their minds. I hope these answers satisfy for now.

They were justifying themselves for 6 years that it was the only way to keep "their" home - not OUR home.

Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft. 

[Super Atom]

Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

NCsoft isn't the current problem. The problem is this apparently has been around for years. We've been mislead and now we're told its unlikely we'll ever see the game again because one person decided so.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

I think people have a little bit of a right to be hurt and untrustworthy of the intent of the secret server at this point.  The fact a playable version of the game has existed for 6 years but in total secret is a little disheartening.  Most of us came here just to get a little memory of it while there were people who have been playing the actual game for years and years now.  The code is already in the hands of the people who can help us.  The problem is we don't know if they are actually doing anything to help us anymore.  We know they are doing plenty to help the server, and maintain its secrecy and they are just asking to us to trust it was for the good of the community after they were just caught lying about its existence for 6 years.

NCSoft took the game away from everyone, we all accepted that and got angry at them.  And now we are being told the game is actually still around, in a fully playable state, and has been for years but is being kept secret for the majority of the community that said they would do anything to play the game again.  NCSoft didn't rebuild the server and keep it a secret.  I already distrusted NCSoft, now I am not sure if I should distrust SCoRE or not.

[TonyV]

Why does my post explaining to Tony V why this block of text

I don't know, I don't memorize all of the posts I delete. Probably because of other stuff in it?

Is just tech fluff and not complicated or expensive keep disappearing? It's not insulting or attacking anyone. I'll simplify in hopes its not removed.

The only real costing item in that list is Mapservers. The rest is very basic and simple stuff, The idea that each one is an individual server is incorrect and misleading.

By "server," I mean it in the sense of client-server computing. A "server" in this sense is a distinct, running process that responds to client requests. I never intended it to mean a physical box. Although make no mistake: There WERE a bunch of high-end enterprise-level boxes running all of this software.

Account server for example. is a thing that when you click login, it's a web server that takes that request that you've sent and goes is this person legit. It's like logging into a forum thats all an account server is.

That's not all an account server is in this case. There were also ties into what level of privileges you have, ties into the store to figure out what stuff you owned, a crapton of anti-intrusion measures, since this was the gateway into the game and back-end processes, yadda yadda yadda. And while I don't know the precise architecture, I suspect that the account server probably had things like clustering and/or load balancing baked into the executable so that during peak hours it could process large numbers of logins simultaneously without dying.

Point is, you're almost certainly grossly underestimating how much computing power a simple "account server" required, and you're completely ignoring how complicated the configuration and actual execution of it is.

Even mapserver isn't that complicated to operate. You have to remember, most of this was targeted at 2003/4 hardware. We're lightyears ahead in terms of equipment and costs. Fitting thousands of people in one spot is extra work certainly, but we're talking about individual private servers here, that would probably not feature 1000+ people at a time.

Yes, it was. This was the software that kept track of every entity in a zone or instance--players, NPCs, environmental entities (cars, trains, meteors, burning oil patches, etc.) Whether you have one person in an instance or 1000, all of that stuff still has to be tracked. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that player characters are actually just a percent or two, if that much, of all the stuff that a map server tracks.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this, my impressions are from the people who actually worked on the stuff told me over the years. If you want further (or more definitive) clarification, go bug the former devs. (Or Leo, apparently he knows too...) Towards the end of the game's life, there were efforts to try to clean up the code and make it less complicated to configure and run, and as I recall they were beginning efforts to consolidate some of these server processes on fewer, BIG honkin' boxes, but they never really got much time to work on those kinds of efforts because they were constantly scrambling to get the next issue out the door.

[Super Atom]

I don't know, I don't memorize all of the posts I delete. Probably because of other stuff in it?

By "server," I mean it in the sense of client-server computing. A "server" in this sense is a distinct, running process that responds to client requests. I never intended it to mean a physical box. Although make no mistake: There WERE a bunch of high-end enterprise-level boxes running all of this software.

That's not all an account server is in this case. There were also ties into what level of privileges you have, ties into the store to figure out what stuff you owned, a crapton of anti-intrusion measures, since this was the gateway into the game and back-end processes, yadda yadda yadda. And while I don't know the precise architecture, I suspect that the account server probably had things like clustering and/or load balancing baked into the executable so that during peak hours it could process large numbers of logins simultaneously without dying.

Point is, you're almost certainly grossly underestimating how much computing power a simple "account server" required, and you're completely ignoring how complicated the configuration and actual execution of it is.

Yes, it was. This was the software that kept track of every entity in a zone or instance--players, NPCs, environmental entities (cars, trains, meteors, burning oil patches, etc.) Whether you have one person in an instance or 1000, all of that stuff still has to be tracked. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that player characters are actually just a percent or two, if that much, of all the stuff that a map server tracks.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this, my impressions are from the people who actually worked on the stuff told me over the years. If you want further clarification, go bug Matt Miller or some of the other former devs. Towards the end of the game's life, there were efforts to try to clean up the code and make it less complicated to configure and run, and as I recall they were beginning efforts to consolidate some of these server processes on fewer, BIG honkin' boxes, but they never really got much time to work on those kinds of efforts because they were constantly scrambling to get the next issue out the door.

I appreciate your clarifications Tony. As i said before, My info on these things is mostly from other MMOs, if CoH was truly this spaghetti then i feel for the CoH devs. However, as none of us have seen the code we do not know this to be the truth, even if its not the truth any longer. You nor i know if anyone else could be up to task and until the code is out, we never will. Kind of a moot point, but at least i got to respond and see your responce without deletion. The other stuff was not hostile, just further tech mumbojumbo.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I appreciate your clarifications Tony. As i said before, My info on these things is mostly from other MMOs, if CoH was truly this spaghetti then i feel for the CoH devs. However, as none of us have seen the code we do not know this to be the truth, even if its not the truth any longer. You nor i know if anyone else could be up to task and until the code is out, we never will. Kind of a moot point, but at least i got to respond and see your responce without deletion. The other stuff was not hostile, just further tech mumbojumbo.

Well I am sure it is possible someone else could do it, I do believe it is rather complicated.  I don't really know anything about the tech side of all of this, but I do feel I can believe the multiple people (Devs included) who said it was a mess to work with.  But Leo certainly is not the only human on the entire planet who can do it, he just may be the only one with the code that is able to do it.  Whether it be coding or any other walk of life - someone else, somewhere else, is just as good.

[saipaman]

Please unclamp your jaws from my head, thank you.

Congrats!   You made me laugh!

[eabrace]

Just for the record, if you guys keep giving Codewalker credit for Sentinel+, you're going to summon GuyPerfect.   For the sake of my own sanity, please don't.

[saipaman]

Just for the record, if you guys keep giving Codewalker credit for Sentinel+, you're going to summon GuyPerfect.   For the sake of my own sanity, please don't.

He always entertained me.   There is no higher praise.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Just for the record, if you guys keep giving Codewalker credit for Sentinel+, you're going to summon GuyPerfect.   For the sake of my own sanity, please don't.

Oh woops....I already started the ritual to summon him :( In true CoH style I was doing a CoT ritual so it may end up with a few demons on the loose as well.

[P51mus]

It's worth noting that in his video, People's Hero Mr. Destroyer Stroyer specifically called out how:

• When he hosted an event in Rikti War Zone, "RZW ran like crap" with more than a handful of people in the zone

Since no one has really refuted this since it's been posted, I'd just like to say that I ran in some RWZ raids when the game was still running on official servers, and they always ran like crap on the official servers.

RWZ raids not running well is not any kind of evidence of it not being ready to release.

[saipaman]

If by RWZ raids, you mean mother ship raids.   I agree with you. 

[Ironwolf]

Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

I am not really angry - more disappointed that some people lost sight of the goal.

They found Van Gogh's Starry Night left in the attic of a house and instead of sharing it with the world - or even attempt to - they had it locked in a safe and showed it to their friends only. Many people spent thousands of hours enjoying the world in our own painting. When we thought it was gone, destroyed in a moment as the game literally stopped in our arms - we found out someone had it all along.

Can you imagine a world without Van Gogh? Isaac Asimov? Harry Freaking Dresden? To some of us this was art and joy as we sat and watched the sun set on Talos.

It disappoints me that so many unknowns exist - could those purchasing the game have had access to this code? Would it have been simpler for them to negotiate for the rights of the game if they didn't need NCSoft to help? I just see wasted time and the final cart being pushed down the road as they yell bring out your dead. I fear this killed the game - not the leaks but the fear and honestly from my point of view insanity of a few.

If they said - we will kept one secret as a back up and open one and see what happens - I would completely understand never showing the secret one if the open one was C&D'd. It wasn't what they did - they did hide, lie and deflect for YEARS. I am stubborn, but very disappointed.