The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release

[Ohioknight]

Leandro has dedicated a great deal to support this community, Paragon Chat, the successors, and SCoRE. I don't know him except from his posts here and his videos.

I know him from Facebook, I like his pup and I admire his running.  I'm sorry he's deleted his account but I can hardly imagine not doing so in the face of this dangerously insane reaction.

[Kistulot]

I'm not quite certain where you got the idea that SCoRE was "supposed" to do anything at all... snipped by Kistulot

If they got data from someone containing all of our characters, all of our supergroup bases, all of our content, and they dont want to find a way to give it back to us, if they aren't "supposed" to do that, then I don't even know what you want me to expect people to do.

[MyriVerse]

Character and supergroup data should not be part of any server code. Those things are completely different animals.

[slickriptide]

Clearly it was ready for public testing. Please stop saying it isn't.

Can you quote where anybody said those words, above?

What I at least am saying is that whatever state it's in, what Destroyer Stroyer described is NOT some wonderful perfect copy of the original NCSoft server that Leandro has been sitting on and refusing to share.

Likewise, if they were considering an "event leading to a release" then the current level of scrutiny has convinced them that the current level of completeness is NOT ready for prime time.

PC Gamer:
Update, 3 pm PDT: In an email, Leandro clarified that while the SCORE server wouldn't be made public, eventually the source code behind it would be. Because of the legal risk once the project was made public, Leandro says the team has pushed back a release in order to get it as feature-complete as possible. "So the deadline of 'when it's done' was probably pushed way farther that it needed to be, in retrospect," Leandro writes. "The last discussion on an open event leading to a public release was for the game's 15th Anniversary, which is coming in just a couple of weeks. Nobody who wasn't part of SCORE will believe that, but sometimes timing is just that bad."

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized. Likewise, if we take PC Gamer and/or Massively at face value regarding their emailed conversations with Leandro, then it appears that the issue is (and I freely admit that I'm speculating now) that he expects action from NCSoft as soon as the server is released, so he now wants to have it be not just "ready for testing" but "finished" to the point where no more work is required and it can be disseminated widely enough that action by NCSoft will be futile.

It doesn't really matter if you or I would say, "Frag the deficiencies! Give us the server!" Leandro's got the server and it's his yardstick that measures how close it is to ready; not ours.

[Kistulot]

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized.

Hears the thing

We argue that Leandro's decision on when it's ready is irrelevant, and false, because the elements we care about are there.

Hell, a buggy, slow, miserable +4x8 council mission being runnable, able to go to my SG base I dont have a backup for.

I want it for that alone, and even if just the last part is doable, why should he be the one to decide I don't get to have it?

[Super Atom]

Can you quote where anybody said those words, above?

What I at least am saying is that whatever state it's in, what Destroyer Stroyer described is NOT some wonderful perfect copy of the original NCSoft server that Leandro has been sitting on and refusing to share.

Likewise, if they were considering an "event leading to a release" then the current level of scrutiny has convinced them that the current level of completeness is NOT ready for prime time.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized. Likewise, if we take PC Gamer and/or Massively at face value regarding their emailed conversations with Leandro, then it appears that the issue is (and I freely admit that I'm speculating now) that he expects action from NCSoft as soon as the server is released, so he now wants to have it be not just "ready for testing" but "finished" to the point where no more work is required and it can be disseminated widely enough that action by NCSoft will be futile.

It doesn't really matter if you or I would say, "Frag the deficiencies! Give us the server!" Leandro's got the server and it's his yardstick that measures how close it is to ready; not ours.

Did you literally ignore everything i said past that? I said specificly and let me bold and make it bigger for you,  PUBLIC TESTING . One could assume from "Public event that would lead to a release" Means they were ready to extend the scope of the server testing to a more strainful setting. Don't try and bash me because you can't read. Also, exactly what are you to Score that you can make claims without citation? All I've done is cite his claim of a pending public test and its closing in on a release. None of what i said is incorrect information based on his own words. My statement was purely in contention of people saying the server isn't ready while the guy working on it seems to being saying otherwise.

[Ohioknight]

If they got data from someone containing all of our characters, all of our supergroup bases, all of our content, and they dont want to find a way to give it back to us.

So he apparently got a dump of all character/base content from an anonymous source... what would you want him to do with that?  Publish the file to an anonymous server so everybody in the world can have your (and everybody else's) character/base data to use however they want (apparently the plan)?  Delete the files?  Delete YOUR data specifically (based on his best guess as to what data that is)?

[primeknight]

I thought I'd write a comment: I haven't posted in years.

I'd like to play the game again.  It's just that simple.  So the question this: How can we make this happen or how can Leo help, how can we help Leo?

Years ago he gave me the files for the Costume Creator so I figure he's a decent and helpful guy.  And he's probably pretty smart too.  And, it's all a matter of trust and legality.  I'd like to read what Leo said so if someone could link that or PM me that'd be great.

Maybe if people reached out to him and was kind and helpful he'd be willing to let others in or at the very least give other trusted people backups.  This game is bigger than him.  What happens if he gets sick or something.  It'd be wise to help make this thing more distributed.  And It's good to know that it exists at all and hopefully there's a way to open it up to others.  Before today I thought it was gone forever. 

I haven't been around much: I have a kid and he's my life away from work.  I found a few other hobbies and there's other things in my life.  I've grown and changed and there's more to me than a wonderful game and community.  That being said: I revisit my favorite things from time to time and this game was/is up there.  Maybe everyone needs to put things in perspective:  let yourself be inspired and be kind.

Regardless to my point: CoH ranks in my top 10 of games I've ever played and I'd like to show it off to my kids someday.  The entire game was brilliant and weird and eclectic and if there was a video game museum it deserves to be there:  There should be a copy in the Library of Congress: even if ownership based to different hands it was still created on the soil of the USA. 

So here's my offer:
If anyone wants or needs another set of eyes or needs someone to talk to about this great. PM me.  If someone wants to give me access to something more than icon or ParagonChat then awesome.  If someone wants me to help them figure out a way to distribute information or whatever.  I'd like to help in someway.  PM me if you read this and there's anything I can do.

My real name is William, I live in Oregon in the US and I'm a controls engineer that runs projects and is buried in code all day.  I love the game and the closest thing I can give showing my love of and dedication to the game is this forum post and this article that got published years ago:
https://www.engadget.com/2012/11/03/the-game-archaeologist-a-city-of-heroes-memorial-part-2/
An except from what I wrote is in the above article

William: Prime Knight (right)

My small addition to the City of Heroes is Prime Knight. He's the second character I ever created, and he's one of the two characters I bought the game for. He also fulfilled my gaming desire to fly in a three-dimensional environment. Prime Knight is a Mind/Kinetics controller who has all the powers I've ever wanted to have myself: telekinesis, telepathy, precog, flight, teleportation, electrokenesis, pyrokinesis -- and he even has a faithful dog.

He's saved the city numerous times from numerous vile and power-hungry foes. And I'm saddened by the fact I'll never get the opportunity to fly into a group of bad guys with reckless abandon, generating mass confusion, lighting things on fire with my mind, electrocuting everything in sight, siphoning speed, or just repelling/telekinesis-ing foes off the tops of buildings.

That's all I've got for now.  Good luck out there and keep "flying"

[Kistulot]

So he apparently got a dump of all character/base content from an anonymous source... what would you want him to do with that?  Publish the file to an anonymous server so everybody in the world can have your (and everybody else's) character/base data to use however they want (apparently the plan)?  Delete the files?  Delete YOUR data specifically (based on his best guess as to what data that is)?

Here's the thing, mate:

He's gotten to make that choice for me. He already does publish it on his server, have access to it, and use it for whatever he wants.

I'd rather he put it all out there for everyone, but as it is, it's just his. He owns it. I never even knew it was out there.

And I get to wait for his merciful judgement to declare I get to have it, and who knows, maybe I never do if someone leaking it--read, NOT ME--means we now don't get it for the 15th anniversary, or who knows when we do.

[SilverAgeFan]

So he apparently got a dump of all character/base content from an anonymous source... what would you want him to do with that?  Publish the file to an anonymous server so everybody in the world can have your (and everybody else's) character/base data to use however they want (apparently the plan)?  Delete the files?  Delete YOUR data specifically (based on his best guess as to what data that is)?

This honestly, for me, is the most enticing and gut wrenching aspect of the story. I know you're having a conversation directly with Kitsulot.

But my $.02—I hope the data is preserved, backed up at a second site, and eventually made recoverable.

Access to a CoH i20 or later server? I'm interested.

Access to a CoH i20 or later server AND the ability to recover my original stable of characters instead of PL'ing their facsimiles? Crazy interested.

[Kheprera]

*snip*
The entire game was brilliant and weird and eclectic and if there was a video game museum it deserves to be there:  There should be a copy in the Library of Congress: even if ownership based to different hands it was still created on the soil of the USA. 
*snip*

There is. The National Videogame Museum. It's in Frisco, Texas. I was there last summer.

http://www.nvmusa.org/

I'd love to be able to run some of the missions I never got to as I was always distracted by SG shenanigans. What I want back... full character sheets and listing of badges, bases that I worked on but didn't save (because I believed the SG Leader had nabbed them and we'd be back soon). Those things I'd like back. Petty, selfish things.

My group? Still going. Still playing. Still up to shenanigans and expanding beyond Paragon. We've stuck it through, recruited new members, and persevered. If CoX comes back, great, but we've grown beyond and keep looking to the stars.

[Radionuclide]

This holds true today just as much as it did then. The only difference is that now we know there's a private server. Well, bully for them. I'm not jealous of the people who have been playing on it, because I personally am no worse off than I was this time last week. When Leandro says that he intended--and still intends--to release the code, given his reputation for actually producing stuff for the community and contributing to projects like Paragon Chat, I don't get all pissed off scorched-earth at him, I take him at his word. In my humble opinion, he's earned that over the years, and it disappoints me greatly that too many people can't see past their own anger to realize it.

Tony, I agreed with almost everything else you posted here except this. It is great that you take him at his word. Perhaps that is because you interact with him more than others, perhaps it is something else. I don't know and it is not really important. You still trust him and that is fine. But, step back and think about being someone not in that situation. We have been lied to (by SCORE) for 6 years and we are supposed to take him (as the face of SCORE) at his word now? There really is no way around this. Yes, those lies were done in the interest of keeping the secret but, lies none the less. Active attempts to gaslight previously leakers (calling the crazy, etc). Active attempts to remove references to a private server by becoming a Mod on the subreddit for the community and establishing rules in the Auto-mod to remove them. Grousing with us about not being able to play and doing so all that time. I'm not even saying he/himself did all these things (though some he did). I'm saying he is the face of SCORE who did these things.

Trust is built, as you hinted at over time. But, it is so fragile that it can be destroyed in seconds. I won't speak for others. It's not that I can't see past by anger. It's that I cannot see past my hurt of being lied to. That trust will have to be rebuilt.

[Kistulot]

Active attempts to gaslight previously leakers (calling the crazy, etc).

Things like this need to be addressed.

The fact that outside of any legalities, long term plans, etc, people were hurt by this, people were treated unfairly, needs to be treated as more than "well they shouldn't have leaked the game! :D"

[therain93]

If they got data from someone containing all of our characters, all of our supergroup bases, all of our content, and they dont want to find a way to give it back to us, if they aren't "supposed" to do that, then I don't even know what you want me to expect people to do.

I'm just quoting you because it is a nice snippet.... these references to "our" characters.... we have no ownership of them beyond the sentimental.  They're glorified configuration files that may be nicer to have access to,  but there's no obligation to release such things if they are even accessible.    Plus, if you used Codewalker's character tool to download config info,  a long hash code was generated  for your characters if they were to ever be re-integrated into a server with a validation function to ensure they were legitimate.....

[weenus]

This might be a bit off topic but weren't there websites where we could list our characters and builds, things like that? I'm trying to remember some of my CoX characters but I'm realizing a lot of characters from CO and DCUO are blurring together in my brain and I'm wondering if any of those old CoX based sites are still active.

Even if we did have access to our old characters I don't know that I'd be able to even claim them if they're not somehow hooked to our old account names as that's the only thing I can find reliably through digging through old emails.

[Kistulot]

I'm just quoting you because it is a nice snippet.... these references to "our" characters.... we have no ownership of them beyond the sentimental.  They're glorified configuration files that may be nicer to have access to,  but there's no obligation to release such things if they are even accessible.    Plus, if you used Codewalker's character tool to download config info,  a long hash code was generated  for your characters if they were to ever be re-integrated into a server with a validation function to ensure they were legitimate.....

By all means, quote me, go ahead.

If they aren't our characters, if they weren't made by us, leveled by us, used by us, if you're going to take issue with the fact that they were ours, then there's no point in talking then, is there? Because you don't respect the emotional attachment many of us have to the game.

And hey, you know, I sure can use that character tool to play in Co--oh right, I can't, because even if I had access to all of my character data (and I do, because hey, I was around here near the end like everyone else who was!) the best ~I~ have access to is paragon chat, which only really cares about costumes anyway.

If you aren't even going to respect people's basic feelings as to why they're feeling how they are, then your arguments inherently come from a negative place.

[weenus]

If they aren't our characters, if they weren't made by us, leveled by us, used by us, if you're going to take issue with the fact that they were ours, then there's no point in talking then, is there? Because you don't respect the emotional attachment many of us have to the game.

If anything they're sorta Schrödinger's characters now.

[therain93]

I think most of us would prefer to be a part of that development, and don't particularly care about how crap it runs when they have our characters, and supergroup bases.

I don't doubt that, but there would be at least some challenges there like..
1. Most people don't really know how to test software
2. Contending with complaints and scope creep
3. The pressure of publicity resulting on a c&d means the won't be a beta testing period. -- it's basically going from alpha testing (usually with friends and family) straight to Gold (sound familiar?)

Some have even seen screenshots of the characters, names and all, of friends' toons, friends who have been dead for years since the end of CoX.

Yes, and we've lost many.   I used to run with the Monday night Freedom Horde TFs, and was sad to discover that one of the leaders, a very nice woman whom was the last I said farewell to on shutdown morning,  passed.  It sucks and we won't ever get those experiences back. ) ' :

[Kistulot]

If anything they're sorta Schrödinger's characters now.

I'm going to be done addressing you directly. Sorry. It's not productive.

I don't doubt that, but there would be at least some challenges there like..
1. Most people don't really know how to test software
2. Contending with complaints and scope creep
3. The pressure of publicity resulting on a c&d means the won't be a beta testing period. -- it's basically going from alpha testing (usually with friends and family) straight to Gold (sound familiar?)

So?

I have heard from people on that server. 1 is garbage because no one had qualifications with beta testing to get in, 2 we just want the damned game, 3 then release it and let the community sort it out because I've never heard of software updating after launch faster because MORE people can look at it. If anything, your arguments show why it should have been shared with more people sooner. Also enough people with it means you can't C&D SCORE and kill cox. Done.

Yes, and we've lost many.   I used to run with the Monday night Freedom Horde TFs, and was sad to discover that one of the leaders, a very nice woman whom was the last I said farewell to on shutdown morning,  passed.  It sucks and we won't ever get those experiences back. ) ' :

I respect your losses, and they're sad for us all the people we've lost...

But you just read what I said and didn't actually listen, respond to it, etc. People's data is already being used. Data from people who are dead is being used for joyrides in other people's characters. That's a thing that I take issue with.

[saipaman]

This might be a bit off topic but weren't there websites where we could list our characters and builds, things like that? I'm trying to remember some of my CoX characters but I'm realizing a lot of characters from CO and DCUO are blurring together in my brain and I'm wondering if any of those old CoX based sites are still active.

Even if we did have access to our old characters I don't know that I'd be able to even claim them if they're not somehow hooked to our old account names as that's the only thing I can find reliably through digging through old emails.

Do you mean this one?

https://cit.cohtitan.com/