Orlando Shootings - June 12, 2016

[Tahquitz]

THIS WAS SPLIT FROM THE "NEW EFFORTS" DISCUSSION. 
TOPIC WAS INITIALLY STARTED BY LADYVAMP:

This is off topic but you guys see the Orlando night club shooting?  Happened early this morning.  Club called Pulse. So far, 50 dead.  Another 53 injured.  ISIS claiming responsibility.  Here's a link to the story:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html

I'm speechless.

Same here.  I could say "my thoughts are with the victim's families" like the politicians tend to say, but that's a cheap sentiment.  What good does my thoughts do for anyone?

I don't know what to say.  I really don't.

[Ohioknight]

Same here.  I could say "my thoughts are with the victim's families" like the politicians tend to say, but that's a cheap sentiment.  What good does my thoughts do for anyone?

I don't know what to say.  I really don't.

Really, by far, the best way to react to things like this is to react as little as possible.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Its truly heart breaking.  I don't know what to say either, I am sorry to all those in pain and who lost someone.  I know it doesn't mean anything I am just sorry that kind of pain has to exist in the world.  I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

[LaughingAlex]

This is off topic but you guys see the Orlando night club shooting?  Happened early this morning.  Club called Pulse. So far, 50 dead.  Another 53 injured.  ISIS claiming responsibility.  Here's a link to the story:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html

I'm speechless.

Still shocked and speechless and it's the last minute of the day as I write this here.

I could spend all day trying to come up with the right words to say and I'd still fail with the emotions that I feel when I think about it.  I'm horribly saddened at the fact that this was the largest shooting in american history...
...that it targetted the LGBT community....
...how some politicians responded to it(some responses so sickening I won't even describe them here)....
...and thats just the start of it.

At least some people in the world could find the words to say, but I couldn't when it first happened.  I'm just shocked by the whole thing.

I dunno, perhaps silence is my way of mourning, I struggle to express myself when I'm feeling especially bad.

[Baaleos]

Still shocked and speechless and it's the last minute of the day as I write this here.

I could spend all day trying to come up with the right words to say and I'd still fail with the emotions that I feel when I think about it.  I'm horribly saddened at the fact that this was the largest shooting in american history...
...that it targetted the LGBT community....
...how some politicians responded to it(some responses so sickening I won't even describe them here)....
...and thats just the start of it.

At least some people in the world could find the words to say, but I couldn't when it first happened.  I'm just shocked by the whole thing.

I dunno, perhaps silence is my way of mourning, I struggle to express myself when I'm feeling especially bad.

Made the mistake of reading some twitter posts, watching a video by someone called Steven L Anderson, a self proclaimed pastor of a cult - all of whom either directly or indirectly applauded the massacre in one way or another, and then I made the mistake of reading what West-borough Church had shat out of their mouths on the subject.
The whole ordeal is just disgusting and shocking, I actually want to wash my eyes out...

You actually have American civilians, applauding the shooting and killing of other American civilians.
Dont ask me to repeat some of those twitter posts - they were VILE!
I don't know if many other countries do that. I don't recall in recent years anything of the same magnitude being uttered in the UK about any UK based massacres.
Normally you have some sort of camaraderie between people of the same nation.
I'm actually wee bit upset at having read those comments, kinda wanna go throw up.

I'm not American, I live in the UK, but perhaps it requires an outsider looking in to say this...
'What the fk is wrong with America these days?'

Thought it was meant to be the place of freedom, acceptance and tolerance.

Now all I see is religious zealots and hateful organizations that masquerade as churches (cults), being 'free' to spew their hateful rhetoric.
I actually feel really disillusioned, demoralized and drained seeing the hateful things American citizens have said about American citizens in the last few days.
Actually upset now...    :-(

[MM3squints]

Dont ask me to repeat some of those twitter posts - they were VILE!
I don't know if many other countries do that. I don't recall in recent years anything of the same magnitude being uttered in the UK about any UK based massacres.
Normally you have some sort of camaraderie between people of the same nation.
I'm actually wee bit upset at having read those comments, kinda wanna go throw up.

I'm not American, I live in the UK, but perhaps it requires an outsider looking in to say this...
'What the fk is wrong with America these days?'

Thought it was meant to be the place of freedom, acceptance and tolerance.

Freedom is an interesting word. Freedom means we allow the exchange of ideas even those we do not agree with in order to have an open discussion. the action that are taken in a free society, we as a society need to own up to them and take ownership of those action. Just because one has freedom doesn't mean acceptance and tolerance will come automatically. Why dose the United States allow any form of speech no matter how positive or destructive it may be? Because as a society we can see the outcomes of those speeches and make a determination if that is the society we do want to live in. The fact that those twitter post wants to make you throw up is freedom and free speech in action. You find it inhuman to see after the largest mass shooting in US history how people can show so little empathy to not just their fellow countrymen, but fellow human being. You are not the only one that feel that way, many do to and it creates action and dialogue. Example would be the Westboro Baptist Church. They will go around the country protesting service men funeral with homophobic slurs. In such cases when the community catches wiff they are coming, they will mobilize, the community knows WBC is a unwelcome cancer in their community and will create literal human chains around the WBC so the people who are grieving can have dignity.

It is also all about perception and what sources of news you watch. The news cycle will focus on causes, hate, basically anything sensationalized or with whatever agenda they are pushing. If just focus on hate news, then that is all you will think of the situation. Amidst this tragedy, what good could come out of it? People are out in force waiting in the FL heat trying to donate blood to save as much lives as possible. So much, currently FL is understaffed with nurses who can draw blood. People setting up a go fundme page that hit over 1 million in donations in the wake of the shooting. Neighbors opening doors to help one another. From Santa Monica to Stonewall, to Orlando, mountains of of support and grief is expressed.

With the talk of freedom, one will argue what I say is all nice and good, but what about the 50 people who died and the 50+ other wounded. Their freedoms were infringed just to live their lives how they want to and they no longer have a voice in the debate, shouldn't we tamp down of idiots making insensitive remarks? I would say no, because if you do, because like I said, it's those speeches that make you realize what is the value of a human life and changes our perceptions of the world. Also with how the internet work, anyone can be anyone and normally the people who are making fun or cheering on the situation have amenity and use the GIFT to it's full potential just to troll.

[slickriptide]

Thought it was meant to be the place of freedom, acceptance and tolerance.

Ironically, "freedom" includes the freedom to be as intolerant as you wish.

Look - things are no different than they have ever been, except for two things:

1) Society as a whole is way more tolerant than it was a hundred years ago.

2) The Internet gives a voice and a presence to intolerant people that they never would have had even forty or fifty years ago. Don't make the mistake of judging "America" by a group of vociferous bastards.

Regarding the events in Tulsa, you will find that most Americans are disgusted and horrified by them, no matter how they feel about the LGBT community. Those people don't need to wave a banner on the internet to get attention, though, nor are they doing so. The banner-wavers do not represent America. In fact, I can thinks of few things less "American" than the Westboro Baptist Church. 

In any case - talk is cheap and people on the internet love to talk. Especially the slimeballs who, for all of their sliminess, are still American citizens and so are free to be as publically slimy as they wish.

Part of "tolerance" is tolerating the people who really don't deserve that tolerance but who are as entitled to it as the people who do deserve it.

.

[Baaleos]

I guess yesterday I was just feeling a little numb from the whole thing.
I ended up re-writing that post a dozen times - didn't want to be too strong but every time I thought about it - was just upsetting.

[Tahquitz]

What's frustrating about things like this... it's nothing new, but it's different.  Terrorism has existed for centuries, but modern terrorism (I guess this is the best way to describe it) is coming into vogue as an effective way for people to get attention for themselves, their lives, and their problems as most media and national interest is centered around the villain to try to understand why they'd commit a senseless act in any regard.

It's nothing that can be solved by touting one thing, yet, that's how politicized it's become.  There's plenty of answers on how to stop acts like this, but they all reek of pushing an agenda instead of addressing the problem.  And there's plenty of sound bites: "Kick the Muslims out." Explain Sandy Hook.  Or Columbine.  Or Oklahoma City.  Without muslims in the United States, we'd still have citizens committing these acts.  "Be afraid of quiet loners, mentally ill types, and weird people." I think difficulties facing LGBT tolerance would be slightly easier to tackle than mental health stigma in this country.  Especially the stereotypical "quiet, shy, angers easily" stereotype of most terrorists.  Do we lock up all introverts to prevent them from becoming the next active shooters?  I'd probably be among them.  "Take all the guns away!" That's unringing a bell... even if illegal to own, Americans who would continue to own guns in defiance of the law.  Active shooters with suicide in their playbook won't face the music in the justice system when their act is finished anyway.  The most recent variant I've heard: "LGBTQ groups should embrace guns!" I'll let you work out why that won't happen.

I'm not using this to proclaim the solution, because I don't have one. 

Speaking for myself, I don't advocate gun control, as I live in a rural town.  The law enforcement response out here averages around 45 minutes for an ambulance call.  45 MINUTES.  And that's a best effort: if there is traffic, road closures, or other issues, it could take longer.  If someone has a gun pointed at me at my house, my life is basically forfeit (as it would be with adequate law enforcement presence anyway... cops aren't superheroes), but that's way too much of a head start for a criminal to get away with anything.  Past two hours, the police may as well show up the next day.  In the right hands, a gun could end a situation.

But those hands will never be mine.  I'll never own one.  I was raised around them, and my older siblings are into them.  But they have no place in my life, in fact, I would feel less safe owning one.  Depression runs in our family and I think having a gun in my house would open us up to scenarios that an upset loved one would do something horrible that they couldn't take back versus the intent to protect ourselves. Of course, our situation isn't applicable to the whole country, and I know I'm not right to consider our family as the default every American household should aspire to.  But that's our situation.  And I'm sure someone pro-gun would tell me "you just need: to be better educated about gun use, more time at a gun range, a trigger lock, a gun vault, a small caliber weapon that's less lethal, to put your afflicted relatives on better medication, to cheer the hell up, to stop being a complete wuss."  Even if depression wasn't an issue with us, none of those address that I still don't want a gun.  When it comes down to it, I'm just not interested in them. (Of course, my brother has told me "You'll be sorry when you're in a situation and don't have one."  If nothing else worked to get me to own one, I guess that'll convince me, right?)

And none of that addresses the problem of such shootings.  Guns are just one facet.  If I go into religious extremism, LGBTQ concerns (I don't like that acronym... it sounds too close to BBQ), mental health... I could make this rant longer, but I fear I'd continue meandering and still wouldn't have an answer for anyone.  In fact, sharing my thoughts alone makes me feel like I've painted myself into a corner where I can see some readers booing me for my views and opinions, or trying to push my pseudo-liberal beliefs onto a population that doesn't want to hear them, which is not my intent.

What's my point?  Just expounding on my initial statement on why I have no idea on what to say. I'm upset. No matter what you feel about social issues and gay rights, no one should die because of who or what they love.  And past that, what happened last Friday shouldn't keep happening.  And I don't have an answer on how to stop it.

It's been an hour since I've started writing this, I'll stop before it grows much farther.

Op-Ed: my views do not reflect those of Titan Network, it's management, or anyone at all other than myself.

[Ohioknight]

So as far as I can tell:

This guy was apparently gay and heavily closeted -- a patron of the club and very concerned at his family finding out. 
Was angry because he was unpopular.  Had mental issues, notably rage related -- but never enough to impact his job.
Flirted with radical Islamist ideologies.  Had a dad who was a conservative Muslim.  And was a security guard.

So:

Terrorism?  Well he claimed it but this seems to have been an attack based on personal issues with terrorism as a cover.
And what kind of terrorist targets a gay club to strike out against America's power structure?

Gun Control?  Well he was a security guard who would have passed any conceivable background check to have weapons
Assault weapons ban might have slowed him, or maybe not, a brace of auto pistols would have done the same thing.

Mental Health?  Well it was an issue, but not to a degree that would have set off any reasonable alarm
Any mental health alert system sensitive enough to reign him in would be flooded with millions

Homophobic hate crime?  Well he was apparently a member of the community and fairly well known at the club
Rejection, alienation, self hatred?  It was Pride week, I don't think any increased societal acceptance would do away with his problems.

So lesson?  What should we focus on? What should next week's obsessive news coverage be?

Nothing.

Mourn the tragedy, respect and honor the lives lost, move on... it's just something that happened.

[Mistress Bloodwrath]

I'm still shaken up by this. I was already hitting a nihilistic low point of depression before this happened, and the event only made it worse. All those people dead, for what? Bigotry and ignorance that pressured this confused man into something abhorrent. As said elsewhere, he was the killer, yes, but the spiteful, bigoted culture cultivated by Right-winged, religious hate rhetoric were his bullets. This happened because intolerance and hate is allowed to breed wildly in our culture.

I was in tears. And also got terribly drunk, just thinking about it.

As I told my therapist today... I am afraid. An LGBT center in my old home town of Tacoma has received threats. It could happen here as much as it happened there. It could happen anywhere. Each day I walk outside could be my last, simply for being who I am. I'm afraid some crazy whacko will decide to attack me one day for using the women's restroom. And all of the mass media coverage isn't helping. What are they focused on? Guns and the fact that the guy was a Muslim. The fact that the victims were LGBT is almost completely ignored, like it doesn't matter. "Just a bunch of dead queers, who cares?" seems to be the presiding attitude regardless if its a conscious one or not. And the idiots that are praising it....

I just feel so awful....

[Tahquitz]

As a moderator, I do need to point out that this topic is a big risk concerning the potential for users to commit personal attacks and disparaging whole groups of people who are perceived to be at fault. (Indirect, but still an attack as some of our readers may see those comments as including them.)  There was one man who committed this particular act, not hundreds or millions.

Please be mindful of what you offer up for others to read.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7328/26736019604_fbafe54874_o.png

[Mistress Bloodwrath]

There was one man who committed this particular act, not hundreds or millions.

I'm sorry, I can't quite agree with that. The culture that breeds and cultivates such attitudes is as guilty as the man who pulls the trigger, because it's that culture that tells them it is "okay" to do this.

[ukaserex]

For me - what is really disconcerting is that there are some people actually suggesting - (and I think believing) - that our government had something to do with this, in some whacko, misguided (or clever, depending on your perspective) effort to get our guns. And what's crazy is that it could be possible! (given my mistrust in the current administration)

[Mistress Bloodwrath]

Possible, but improbable.

[Brou]

People are handling it well here. There was a vigil. One of the bars had a nice mural going on, too. We're focusing on the victims here.

[Tahquitz]

It's been a week.  I think it's safe to say everyone who had something to say on this has said it by now. 

If I'm wrong, start a new topic.  If not, I think we're good.