New efforts!

[TimtheEnchanter]

I believe what he said was "stand out from WoW". That was certainly his meaning, regardless of the exact wording. And it's good advice for precisely the reasons you list—most developers lack the resources to duplicate WoW's success and even the ones who do would need the right circumstances and more than a little luck.

I just wish more companies would just be happy with EQ's level of success. Aim for a target that's reasonable instead of "greatest MMO ever or bust." And it might be arrogant for someone from Blizzard to say such a thing, but it would also be perfectly honest.

[Felderburg]

By now there is only a tiny fraction of the population who are 'yet-to-be' MMO players.

While I agree with your sentiments about companies trying to "beat" wow, I wonder about this statement. What is the "population" you're referring to?

[TimtheEnchanter]

While I agree with your sentiments about companies trying to "beat" wow, I wonder about this statement. What is the "population" you're referring to?

Gamers, more or less. MMO's were still a new thing, and quite innovative when WoW hit the scene. There was a huge pool of people who weren't playing MMO's yet who were suddenly attracted to the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The problem now is that nearly anyone who is the target audience of an MMO is already playing an MMO now. So there simply is no fair comparison between what WoW did, and trying to do what WoW did in today's market. To repeat the WoW phenomenon is infinitely harder, and nobody with the cash to burn seems to realize that.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Gamers, more or less. MMO's were still a new thing, and quite innovative when WoW hit the scene. There was a huge pool of people who weren't playing MMO's yet who were suddenly attracted to the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The problem now is that nearly anyone who is the target audience of an MMO is already playing an MMO now. So there simply is no fair comparison between what WoW did, and trying to do what WoW did in today's market. To repeat the WoW phenomenon is infinitely harder, and nobody with the cash to burn seems to realize that.

Games are becoming more and more online as time goes on too.  Traditional MMO's seem to be dying.  Partially its gamers.  People don't want to pay a sub but despise DLC or micro-transactions. Plus with the way the internet is these days its almost required to have an online option for most games even if its just PvP multiplayer.  Many people won't play games that aren't online capable.  It is watering down the "MMO" genre greatly.  When WoW came out there were plenty of MMO's that had existed.  But they all followed the same formula.  And most were unforgiving.  Harsh death penalties, long travel times, unclear directions on what to do really.  And virtually no end game.  EQ had "raids" but they were just "lets all attack Cazic Thules foot"

WoW streamlined a lot of the stuff that kept MMO's refined to the hardcore players.  EQ and UO I still remember as being fairly brutal.  You had to be that kind of gamer to get into it.  WoW made the death penalties less severe, made traveling the world easier, a clear story line, and the backing of the already massive Warcraft 3 fans.  The strange thing is the what exactly made WoW sky rocket? Like you said it has to be the perfect balance of situation and timing. EQ2, WoW, and CoH all came out around the same time.  WoW being the first to really have end game content but they all stream lined the same things.  All were more forgiving and easier for your "average" player to access.  CoH was honestly in my opinion more innovative then WoW at their releases, but smaller.  EQ2 was huge like EQ fans like, but less innovative.  WoW seemed to have the perfect level of story, size, and innovation to make it the massive successful game it became. And not to mention WC3 was hella popular before WoW came out.  It birthed Dota and refined Tower Defenders.

[TimtheEnchanter]

When WoW came out there were plenty of MMO's that had existed.  But they all followed the same formula.  And most were unforgiving.  Harsh death penalties, long travel times, unclear directions on what to do really.  And virtually no end game.  EQ had "raids" but they were just "lets all attack Cazic Thules foot"

Sadly, I enjoyed that. Maybe not so much the death penalties, but I loved traveling across untamed lands like an intrepid explorer, and I didn't mind there being no main "quest." I reached a point in SWG where I could travel 3k to my house in the middle of nowhere without using the GPS.

The openness actually didn't give the games less of a story either. The stories wove themselves. Instead of iconic content coming from random NPC's, we ourselves became the iconic content, and forged the server into a world that was designed by our own experiences. This has worked quite well for EVE Online. It's VERY sandboxy and you're left to play however you want. But when all Hell breaks loose in that galaxy, the entire internet often hears about it. These events aren't scripted by the devs. It's the culmination of everything the players are doing until it hits the breaking point. I wish more games knew how to do this, but unfortunately history has proven that the majority of people are sheep, not entrepreneurs.

Take a look at how Lego has evolved in the past decade. The company was founded on the concept of, "Build your own world, your way." Now that they've switched focus to selling cross-marketed sets, "Here's the world you're going to play in," they're making more money than ever. Creativity itself seems to be a niche concept. Most people left to their own devices can't decide what to do with themselves. They'd rather be told what to do, and that's just sad, and paints a dark picture of humanity as it applies to everything from economics to politics.

The strange thing is the what exactly made WoW sky rocket? Like you said it has to be the perfect balance of situation and timing. EQ2, WoW, and CoH all came out around the same time.  WoW being the first to really have end game content but they all stream lined the same things.  All were more forgiving and easier for your "average" player to access.  CoH was honestly in my opinion more innovative then WoW at their releases, but smaller.

Well yeah some of that goes back to what I just said about Lego. Pre-existing IP's always trump original ideas. EQ was grand-daddy that started it all, but I don't think it was based on anything besides generic D&D. It was its own universe. Warcraft was a universe everyone already knew for more than a decade, which certainly gave it some leverage. The only conflict with that, is SOE released a Star Wars MMO around the same time and it was never able to gain a foothold. But its basic formula was the same as EQ. "We're not going to tell you what to do in the game. You decide what you're going to do."

As for why CoH didn't fare better? Were Super Heroes still too niche? If the game were released today instead of a decade ago, I think we'd be seeing drastically different results.

[Mister Hassenpheffer]

Coh had almost zero advertising.

Most of the advertising they did have was only seen by the people already playing.

It all points to that budget.

Nobody is going to compete with wow because nobody can afford the advertising.

One prime time tv commercial would have been the entire year's budget for most.

[Azrael]

Creativity itself seems to be a niche concept. Most people left to their own devices can't decide what to do with themselves. They'd rather be told what to do, and that's just sad, and paints a dark picture of humanity as it applies to everything from economics to politics.

:/

Azrael.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Sadly, I enjoyed that. Maybe not so much the death penalties, but I loved traveling across untamed lands like an intrepid explorer, and I didn't mind there being no main "quest." I reached a point in SWG where I could travel 3k to my house in the middle of nowhere without using the GPS.

Me too actually.  I loved that in EQ or UO you could travel for hours and hours and explore these huge and dangerous worlds.  If anything travel is too mainlined these days in MMO's.

[Vee]

If anything travel is too mainlined these days in MMO's.

Weird image that.

I just remember every bit of travel in swtor feeling like it took hours. can't imagine one where it actually does take hours. then again coh was my first mmo so i was spoiled for travel. also pretty much every bit of daily experience feels excruciatingly slow to me so maybe i'm not the best person to comment.

[Goddangit]

I didn't win the Powerball Saturday.  So much for flying to Korea with a briefcase full of cash.

[Remaugen]

@Mister Hassenpheffer

Love your avatar, Capt Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew was my favorite comicbook back in the day!

I used Pig Iron as my avatar for years until I ran into someone else who was using the same image.

[Brigadine]

I didn't win the Powerball Saturday.  So much for flying to Korea with a briefcase full of cash.

There is part of me that feels like you could offer 100 times the value of the game and NC would still turn you down.

[Goddangit]

There is part of me that feels like you could offer 100 times the value of the game and NC would still turn you down.

I guess that leaves buying the company.

[Sinistar]

I guess that leaves buying the company.

Exactly.

[switch]

Exactly.

the rate their going the price for the company's worth  wont be much in  time :D

[RGladden]

I didn't win the Powerball Saturday.  So much for flying to Korea with a briefcase full of cash.

Tell ya what guys, if I win the Powerball I'll offer NCSoft so much money for CoH that they can't possibly refuse to sell. 

But once the game is up and running, you lot will have to finance and build my memorial statue.  I'd do it myself, but that would be immodest.

[rookery.]

Ya know... if Donald Trump put restoring COX into his platform, that'd be YUGE!

He might even get my vote.

[Twisted Toon]

Ya know... if Donald Trump put restoring COX into his platform, that'd be YUGE!

He might even get my vote.

So, I need to change my name to Richard Tater and have restoring CoH on my platform when I run for President...gotcha.

[LaughingAlex]

Ya know... if Donald Trump put restoring COX into his platform, that'd be YUGE!

He might even get my vote.

I wouldn't go there.  Especially since the world would end in nuclear fire shortly after.(remember, the guy said he wouldn't rule out nuking Europe after also already saying he'd nuke other countries...to.)

[slickriptide]

So, I need to change my name to Richard Tater...

It might be more useful for you to turn out to be John Titor... ;-)