New efforts!

[slickriptide]

While I don't want to dictate what anyone should like or dislike, I feel compelled to point out that "flop" is not a synonym for "something I personally didn't care for".

Guild Wars was anything but a flop. It may be sparsely populated these days but that is just age and the existence of GW2. It was incredibly successful in its day; enough so to give Arenanet the power to weather the storm when NCSoft pulled back from the North American market.

As for the other games mentioned, I think you'll have to define what you think "flop" means. I suspect that whatever yardstick you're using is one that would measure City of Heroes unfavorably as well if it was being wielded by a dispassionate reviewer.

[Brigadine]

I will admit Linage 1 was around for quite a while and had a bit of a following so I'll take it off the list.  Can't speak about Lineage 2 so I'll give it a reprieve , but I've been playing gw2 since it was started.  It just doesn't have as many players at it did when it was started.  Add to that, ncsoft decided to make us pay for the major update at full price but gave away the content that was already existing for free to new sign ups.  ticked of a lot of players.  I refused to update with the new content just for that reason.

honestly, I'm about to drop out of that game too.  IMO, it flopped too.  Got to admit though glad I did find the engineer and played it seriously.  Something about dropping turrets and pulling mobs into them is fun.

L1 is still around :) L2's population has been somewhat steady for years now.

[Felderburg]

I have to agree the Guild Wars wasn't a flop... anything successful enough to get a sequel can't be doing *that* badly.

Besides, everything's a flop compared to WoW :p

Misdiagnosed, that was senioritis. It's common in 12th graders and 4th year students in college

Part of senioritis might also be anticipating and being apprehensive about the upcoming major change in life that comes with graduating.

As for having a midlife crisis in senior year of high school, that could very well be due to the fact that so many people are pushed to go to college and get a 4 year degree, even if they might not want to, or think that other things are also worth doing. But I can't speak for others' reasons for midlife crises.

I was convinced less than 1% of the CoH players knew what Silent Running was but even so I named my character Quiet Sprinting!

I've seen it, but it probably would've taken me a long time to get the reference.

[katycat737]

• GuildWars - flop
• GuildWars2 - flop
• Aeon - flop
• Weststar - flop
• Lineage - flop
• Lineage 2 - flop

Sorry, but this is horrifically nearsighted. If I recall, a flop is considered when a product did not meet sales expectations.

Lineage 1 is considered the WoW of the eastern world and that is definitely not a flop. It's only competition are DOTA-like games.  If that is a "flop" then what i s a success? Lineage 2 got some bad reputation but I'm not so sure since I don't follow it at all.

GW1 was such a success that it produced 3 standalone packs + an expansion. At the peak of its popularity, it even somewhat challenged WoW. That and it's PvP scene lasted years (some say up until GW2 released). GW2 itself released an expansion recently, and generated a satisfactory amount of revenue. Also, the reasoning "not a lot of players are on now" can be applied to almost any game that has aged way past its peak (note GW2 is reaching it's 4th year)

Sad to say that Wildstar is not progressing as well, so a shut down may be imminent.

Aion is still alive, could be a "flop" or not. I used to play it, and I actually know some people who have spent thousands of $ on some of the not so recent P2W items.

If you're going to pick some games made by NC SOFT for "flop" status then you should have mentioned ExTeel, Dungeon Runner (?, I forgot but it was obviously bad), Tabula Rasa.. Etc..

Now I'm still questioning why CoH was shutdown itself since, from the looks of financial data, CoH looked like it made profit or at least made enough for self sustenance. And the shutdown was very out of the blue. Top business people will be.... Top business people I guess... They know business "best"

[Arcana]

Hero movies are going a roaring trade and NC Soft are tone deaf to what's going on.  There's a large untapped seam of gold for a game like CoH.  Old or not.

Actually, I think trying to make the case that "superhero" movies are a) in vogue and b) indicators that people want to spend more money on "superhero" media is flawed (and always has been).  When I think about what has worked and is working the most in the realm of comic book-related movies the trend I see is that the more writers and directors use the comic book superhero genre as the backdrop for otherwise good movies, the more successful they are.  The more they try to leverage the genre without that, the less successful they are, or at least are judged to be.  Man of Steel had an interesting idea - Clark Kent as the Fugitive - but abandons it to be something you could easily imagine in a 90s comic book: Superman fights General Zod while splash pages show city-wide devastation.  BvS also has an interesting idea in it - Batman as broken, war-weary vigilante - but abandons that for a much more confused take on Doomsday vs proto-Justice League.  These movies made a lot of money, but I don't think you can use them as evidence for a wider appeal of "superhero" movies.

The Marvel juggernaut seems to convey a much stronger argument, but the Marvel movies themselves seem to rely on the genre less than MoS or BvS.   MoS and BvS are clearly the same *kind* of movie.  But while people have commented on the Marvel movies being similar in tone and structure, to the average movie going audience they are sufficiently different to be categorically distinct.  The First Avenger is a WW2-era period piece movie that has a superhero in it, but in other respects it is an adventure movie like the Indiana Jones movies - which also have fantastical elements to them.  Winter Soldier is a spy/conspiracy thriller.  The superheroics in it are not all that far removed from what you might have seen in a James Bond movie.  Think about the opening to Quantum of Solace.  Guardians of the Galaxy is space-opera, and not really a superhero genre movie at all.  The Avengers is probably the purest superhero comicbook genre Marvel movie, and it is also a big budget action movie.  You could say that the Marvel movies strongly imply the market wants a superhero MMO, but which one: the Guardians MMO, the Avengers MMO, the Ant-Man MMO?  With all due respect to City of Heroes, the only reason why we the players considered CoH to encompass a wide range of genres is because it didn't really do any of them particularly strongly at all.  *Some* players like that kind of openness, but I actually think most do not.  A Marvel Cinematic Universe MMO would have a huge task presented to them: capture the wide range of material in all of the MCU movies in a coherent game that had deep content in many different settings.

At the end of the day, I think far more people want to watch Ant-Man than be Ant-Man.  Far more people want to watch Captain America than be Captain America.  I think the lesson the MCU movies teaches is don't get hung up on superheroes: they are an element of the world your movies contain, not the focus of the story your movies should rely on.  Extending that to gaming, I think the lesson is that superpowers and superheroes are a powerful gameplay option useful to game developers, a device players are more than willing to entertain, but your game should still be about something other than just being a superpowered person.  If it isn't, don't expect people to flock to your game just because its about superheroes.

[pinballdave]

I had the CoH dream again last night. I was Billy the Kinetic Kin/DP defender distributing justice and for some reason maximizing my fire resistance.

[Risha]

Well, I use the Black Desert online character creator, but I still can't get used to the floating camera, and I always used the keyboard to fight in COH and the mouse to move.  Switching the mouse for combat . . . eh, too much trouble, easier, I think, to get a game controller. and learn that way.

I have managed to make a less thug-like and thinner character from the warrior, still miss a young wizard.

I really don't even bother to log onto the game, just can't stand trying to use keyboard/mouse in it.

[Brigadine]

I had the CoH dream again last night. I was Billy the Kinetic Kin/DP defender distributing justice and for some reason maximizing my fire resistance.

Is it bad that I don't have these dreams?

[Brigadine]

Well, I use the Black Desert online character creator, but I still can't get used to the floating camera, and I always used the keyboard to fight in COH and the mouse to move.  Switching the mouse for combat . . . eh, too much trouble, easier, I think, to get a game controller. and learn that way.

I have managed to make a less thug-like and thinner character from the warrior, still miss a young wizard.

I really don't even bother to log onto the game, just can't stand trying to use keyboard/mouse in it.

How is that game? Is it P2W?

[Paragon Avenger]

It's time once again for the ...
Weakly Update:

Yeah, we love you, keep using Paragon Chat, there's an NDA in place, so don't tell no one about it.  Talks with NC Soft are still on-going.  We can't tell you weather or not they liked our proof of developer viability, but if they weren't blown-away by it, we wouldn't be talking anymore - - - or would we?

[Baaleos]

Hero movies are going a roaring trade and NC Soft are tone deaf to what's going on.  There's a large untapped seam of gold for a game like CoH.  Old or not.

Well the problem with this statement is - they did do CoH - I am guessing that they stopped for a good reason, such as diminishing returns on investment, loss of players etc.

On friday, before I left the office, I showed a co-worker a youtube video of CoH and his first impression was:
'God, that looks old...'

The CoH engine - in its current state, (the state it was left at), might attract a niche group of gamers - ie: the ones who are die hard CoH enthusiasts, but it is highly unlikely to attract hardcore gamer's who have never encountered the series before.
Unfortunately, thats why I don't believe a studio would get a return on investment for bringing back the original CoH.
The game became free-to-play towards the end, probably because ncsoft knew they couldn't compete with free games that had superior graphic engines.
Until that problem is resolved - a resurrection would eventually hit the same snag.

[darkgob]

It's time once again for the ...
Weakly Update:

Yeah, we love you, keep using Paragon Chat, there's an NDA in place, so don't tell no one about it.  Talks with NC Soft are still on-going.  We can't tell you weather or not they liked our proof of developer viability, but if they weren't blown-away by it, we wouldn't be talking anymore - - - or would we?

If you're going to keep doing this bit, can you at least play it a little more broadly so there's no chance of anyone taking you seriously?

[Baaleos]

If you're going to keep doing this bit, can you at least play it a little more broadly so there's no chance of anyone taking you seriously?

Im just off the phone to Nate, and he says that he is going to the NCSoft staff BBQ in june, so he will have an update at the end of June.  ;D

(Seriously though - Its not gonna materialize, kinda feel wick about having got excited about it in the past as much as I did. Realistically, companies don't fork out money to resurrect a dead game built on dated technologies. Even more obvious - NCSoft wouldn't go out of their way to help another studio make money of their IP. Spiritual Successor is probably the best we can hope for.)

[darkgob]

(Seriously though - Its not gonna materialize, kinda feel wick about having got excited about it in the past as much as I did. Realistically, companies don't fork out money to resurrect a dead game built on dated technologies. Even more obvious - NCSoft wouldn't go out of their way to help another studio make money of their IP. Spiritual Successor is probably the best we can hope for.)

When you say "companies", do you mean NCSoft or TFHM?  Because I don't think NCSoft has any need to spend any money on this, and TFHM wouldn't be doing this in the first place if they didn't want to do it.  And since the plan is to license the IP, not buy it outright, NCSoft would still being seeing money from CoH, greater than the zero dollars they currently see.

[Tubbius]

Well the problem with this statement is - they did do CoH - I am guessing that they stopped for a good reason, such as diminishing returns on investment, loss of players etc.

On friday, before I left the office, I showed a co-worker a youtube video of CoH and his first impression was:
'God, that looks old...'

The CoH engine - in its current state, (the state it was left at), might attract a niche group of gamers - ie: the ones who are die hard CoH enthusiasts, but it is highly unlikely to attract hardcore gamer's who have never encountered the series before.
Unfortunately, thats why I don't believe a studio would get a return on investment for bringing back the original CoH.
The game became free-to-play towards the end, probably because ncsoft knew they couldn't compete with free games that had superior graphic engines.
Until that problem is resolved - a resurrection would eventually hit the same snag.

I would interject with this: many, many YouTube videos I've seen of City of Heroes gameplay are horribly blurry and indistinct.  Even I've thought like your coworker in rewatching gameplay videos and the like, but having played it, I know the difference and the truth about the situation: it looked a LOT better in person than certain YouTube videos show.

Want to really get your coworker interested?  Show him Paragon Chat.  It's as close to live gameplay as we can get right now.

[Sinistar]

I would interject with this: many, many YouTube videos I've seen of City of Heroes gameplay are horribly blurry and indistinct.  Even I've thought like your coworker in rewatching gameplay videos and the like, but having played it, I know the difference and the truth about the situation: it looked a LOT better in person than certain YouTube videos show.

Want to really get your coworker interested?  Show him Paragon Chat.  It's as close to live gameplay as we can get right now.

Now this I agree with, showing them paragon chat would be the better route. 

Also just because a game "looks" old doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to play.

PAC MAN may "look old" but it is still fun, so is Space Invaders, TRON, GORF, Sinistar and may other games of legend.

[Codewalker]

I would interject with this: many, many YouTube videos I've seen of City of Heroes gameplay are horribly blurry and indistinct.

A lot of them were made before Ultra mode was a thing, too. Or have graphics settings turned down so their recording software can get a decent framerate.

[hurple]

On friday, before I left the office, I showed a co-worker a youtube video of CoH and his first impression was:
'God, that looks old...'

Really?  Since the shut down I've sampled as many other MMO's as I can find, to try to find *something* that interests me half as much as CoH, and when I see most of them I think... "God, CoH looked better than this."

[adarict]

If you're going to pick some games made by NC SOFT for "flop" status then you should have mentioned ExTeel, Dungeon Runner (?, I forgot but it was obviously bad), Tabula Rasa.. Etc..

Out of these, the only one that did pretty terrible was Exteel.  Dungeon Runner was a great little game, but it was never going to make them money, no matter how many users were playing.  There was no real incentive to pay money.  You could easily play it without ever paying a cent, and many people did.  And Tabula Rasa was hamstrung by a bug ridden release and weird design choices that made it not a friendly game.  Shortly after release, they made significant changes, and it became my goto game when I wanted a change from CoH.  I don't really remember the numbers, so it could have technically been a flop.  I never seemed to see a lack of players in the game though, and I remember being pretty shocked when they announced the shutdown.  It really felt like one of those games that never got a chance to spread its wings.  I would be almost as happy to have TR come back, as I would be for CoH to come back.  It could have used some changes, but overall, it had a pretty cool story and look, and was actually fun to me.

Also, AutoAssault.  I played the beta and for a short time after release.  I don't remember if it had horrible numbers or not.  I just know the game didn't appeal to me at all.  Well, the idea of it appealed to me, but the execution was not my cup of tea.  That was another game that did not shock me when they closed it.

[Baaleos]

When you say "companies", do you mean NCSoft or TFHM?  Because I don't think NCSoft has any need to spend any money on this, and TFHM wouldn't be doing this in the first place if they didn't want to do it.  And since the plan is to license the IP, not buy it outright, NCSoft would still being seeing money from CoH, greater than the zero dollars they currently see.

* And since the plan is to license the IP

I thought I read several hundred pages back that the devs were also talking about getting an I23 server setup for the players, while they worked on a v2 (confirm?) ?
For that - they would need the server software and new launchers to connect to the new servers.
If its since changed, and it is just the IP that they are going to License and not actually acquire any server files or software - then ignore the next two points.
(Except the bits about lawyer costs - cause that's going to be a cost no matter what)

But even if it is IP they are just getting the rights to use - I can see potential ramifications.
Imagine you have a wonderful brand - eg: City of Heroes, you license it to 3rd party bob, he makes a new issues for the game, its awesome... You make some money from the licensing fee he pays annually.
Bob then makes a series of mistakes - the direction of the game design and story takes a twist that the players hate, they all rally together and burn down Bobs studio then march on NCSoft, who receive hate just by association - Eg: Bob's actions, led to NCSoft getting bad press - A big company such as NCSoft would probably not want to be burdened by the risk that Bob's company will do something bad to the NCSoft owned brand.

This can be mitigated by oversight - eg: NCSoft ensures that Bob does not release anything that NCSoft disagrees with.
This is where you get into the realms of a Playstation-esq certification process: Playstation game patches take longer to pass certification process at Sony, than they do on PC, because Sony is the bottleneck through which all submitted patches have to pass.
Sony does this, because they don't want a Playstation game accidentally being deployed through their system, that ends up formatting your data.
It looks bad on them, cause they are tied to the game that did the deletion, through association. Similarly - NCSoft would be in similar boat. (If they went for oversight)
Not to mention - if it is licensed, then that means NCSoft can pull the plug at any moment - I could of sworn several hundred pages back it was said that they wanted to buy the IP outright, to get rid of the 'sword of Damocles' hanging over their heads.

* Because I don't think NCSoft has any need to spend any money on this

Even contemplating licensing the CoH brand to a 3rd party incurs legal fees, lawyers negotiating licensing terms and conditions. The interested party may insist on some sort of hand over process that requires NCSoft to 'hold their hand' for the first few months, or at the very least provide documentation on the setup and installation process for the server software. Licensing the software to another 3rd party, for them to run, it is generally an accepted practice that the provider has to meet some sort of minimum level of service so the software is not useless to the buyer/licencee.
They can't just sign the license, then say - heres a dvd with the files, good luck - usually they would have documentation showing the infrastructure requirements, setup procedure and if they are lucky, a how to guide on how to maintain and develop the software going forward. Now - given that NCSoft probably never considered selling the CoH brand while it was still online, they probably never contemplated making that documentation (a guide that postulates how a 3rd party could run the CoH software). If the documentation does not exist, then they would probably have to make it new.
That might be harder than you might think - given that the original Devs may or may not be with NCSoft now. Over the years, the developers who knew anything about CoH may have drifted elsewhere, so then you have the situation where internal NCSoft developers have to try and put together documentation for a system that they may or may not have had experience with in the past, and that documentation has to be sufficient quality that it passes a legal requirement that proves that NCSoft made a reasonable effort to give the licensee the ability to setup and run their software.

* greater than the zero dollars they currently see 

Legal Fees, NCSoft Developer/Staff time - Even Nate and the other developers going to the NCSoft boardroom to discuss the deal has already put NCSoft into negative numbers with regards to time/salary and lawyer costs. Until the game materializes and some sort of income comes in from the game or the 3rd party group licensing it - they will be in negative numbers.
Just because they aren't using the brand, doesn't mean there is no benefit from having it in their pocket. Many companies will patent / trademark/ copyright things and keep them in cold storage for a rainy day, sometimes years or decades. The benefit can be as benign as being able to say 'We did it first' to 'Just preventing competitors from doing something obviously similar.'
By not licensing the CoH brand to other people - NCSoft effectively prevent anyone from making money off the City of Heroes product and a whole host of terms, names and concepts contained under its umbrella.
Eg: Warshades, Peacebringer aliens, Scrapper as a high crit class (debatable).
Some terms are so generic that you could get away with reuse: Eg: Tank class (in CoH it was Tanker)
The characters etc -
Ghost Widow, Statesman etc Hundreds of Unique character designs and backstories that are protected by NCSoft's refusal to license.
It gives them power having all that control over the trademarks and copyrights. Why would they relinquish any of it, when they aren't exactly in a financial dry spell. They aren't exactly desperate for extra cash, and letting a 3rd party manage or release new content for one of their brands is a 'risk' / 'unknown' that they could live without.