New efforts!

[Brigadine]

It may be a generational thing, as I appreciate good graphics but play is more important to me. There are MUDs I  would play today if they were still around. And while CoH was wonderful and the best overall package for superhero, mmo play it wasn't perfect or the be all, end all for all things. DCUO cityscape looks better and it's implementation of superspeed...I fell in love immediately. But what I would give for an hour of play on my favorite Brute.

I am 21 and would take CoH graphics and gameplay anyday assuming we cant have both. This is why I have high hopes for Irish Girls project.

[TonyV]

The Realm online has been around longer, I believe, any other graphical MMORPG (doesn't count MUDDS) and it's still going to this day. I think CoH would have a chance at lasting quite a while.

True story you reminded me of...

I used to play Realm back in the late 1990s. I quit because of a temp ban that was total BS.

Ream was PvP just about everywhere except some designated safe home towns. You would travel to places screen by screen, and anyone could ambush you as you passed through an area.  So it was a popular griefing activity for players with high level characters to wait on screens that were more-or-less on a line between a safe city screen and a popular destination, such as the entrance to an instanced dungeon.  They would attack low-level characters and steal their stuff.  Not because they needed it or even wanted it; they were mainly doing it just to be jerks.

So one night, I was really pissed off because they kept attacking one of my low-level characters and wouldn't let me past.  I logged back in with one of my high-level characters and went to the screen they were own.

Now, you have to understand that one of the mechanics of the game was that when players engaged in combat, their avatars would be replaced by a cloud representing the fight, and other players could come by and join in on either side, it was kind of a free-for-all.  So logged in as my high-level character, I went to the screens they were griefing and, every time I saw a combat cloud, I'd join in and fight against the griefers, leaving the newbies able to retreat with their stuff and effectively locking up the griefers in combat, keeping them from retreating and attacking the newbies again.

They whined and complained, accusing me of griefing them. I told them nope, I was simply roleplaying the sheriff, keeping the newbies safe as they passed through.  A bunch of them petitioned me, and an automatic temp ban kicked in.  I sent in a support ticket about it, and they refused to lift the temp ban, so I quit the game.  At that point, it wasn't any fun to play, so I moved on to other stuff and never looked back.

I'm honestly surprised they're still around.  I suspect it has to do with how dirt cheap it is to run.

One of these days, I think I'm going to dedicate some cycles to rewriting some of the old BBS door games to run in a browser or something.  Anyone remember The Pit or Yankee Trader?

[TonyV]

If there was any shenanigans I am positive TonyV (and all the Titan admins) would have nipped it in the bud in the early days.

There are no shenanigans, at least not in the sense that anyone is acting disingenuously.  At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the negotiations are over and have failed.  I don't think anyone is saying on the record, "The negotiations are over and have failed," because 1) they want to leave the possibility of acquiring the game in the future open, and 2) because that's kind of a sucky thing to hear; it's demoralizing and we don't like being demoralizing.  But I assure you that there is no intent to yank people's... whatever.

Now, having said that, keep in mind that I'm not on the negotiating team, so that is merely my opinion.  Take it as a data point, but don't write it in stone or anything.

Oh, and if you are demoralized, just remember what I keep telling everybody.  They can say no a thousand times, but all it takes is for them to say yes once.

[darkgob]

There are no shenanigans, at least not in the sense that anyone is acting disingenuously.  At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the negotiations are over and have failed.  I don't think anyone is saying on the record, "The negotiations are over and have failed," because 1) they want to leave the possibility of acquiring the game in the future open, and 2) because that's kind of a sucky thing to hear; it's demoralizing and we don't like being demoralizing.  But I assure you that there is no intent to yank people's... whatever.

If this is true then that's really poor reasoning.  If the talks failed and there's no NDA preventing them from saying so, they need to say so.  I can understand not wanting to be demoralizing, but surely they don't want to leave people hanging either?

[Twisted Toon]

True story you reminded me of...

I used to play Realm back in the late 1990s. I quit because of a temp ban that was total BS.

Ream was PvP just about everywhere except some designated safe home towns. You would travel to places screen by screen, and anyone could ambush you as you passed through an area.  So it was a popular griefing activity for players with high level characters to wait on screens that were more-or-less on a line between a safe city screen and a popular destination, such as the entrance to an instanced dungeon.  They would attack low-level characters and steal their stuff.  Not because they needed it or even wanted it; they were mainly doing it just to be jerks.

So one night, I was really pissed off because they kept attacking one of my low-level characters and wouldn't let me past.  I logged back in with one of my high-level characters and went to the screen they were own.

Now, you have to understand that one of the mechanics of the game was that when players engaged in combat, their avatars would be replaced by a cloud representing the fight, and other players could come by and join in on either side, it was kind of a free-for-all.  So logged in as my high-level character, I went to the screens they were griefing and, every time I saw a combat cloud, I'd join in and fight against the griefers, leaving the newbies able to retreat with their stuff and effectively locking up the griefers in combat, keeping them from retreating and attacking the newbies again.

They whined and complained, accusing me of griefing them. I told them nope, I was simply roleplaying the sheriff, keeping the newbies safe as they passed through.  A bunch of them petitioned me, and an automatic temp ban kicked in.  I sent in a support ticket about it, and they refused to lift the temp ban, so I quit the game.  At that point, it wasn't any fun to play, so I moved on to other stuff and never looked back.

I'm honestly surprised they're still around.  I suspect it has to do with how dirt cheap it is to run.

One of these days, I think I'm going to dedicate some cycles to rewriting some of the old BBS door games to run in a browser or something.  Anyone remember The Pit or Yankee Trader?

As much as I dislike PvP, I was a member of a guild, on the Realm,  that was formed around the idea of protecting those lower level characters from the groups of jerks that would jump them for the fun of it. The Guild was called the Tiny Terminators. All Elves, and all had names with 2 Ts in them. Like. Tiny Terminator (founder of the guild), Totally Tiny, Tobi Two, Tom Terrific,  and my character, This Toon. Not to be confused with one of my brothers alts, That Toon. We didn't have to engage in PvP all that often, but we were always ready to help out the little guys.

Unfortunately, around the time that CoH came out, the guild just about disappeared. a few of us hung in there for a few more years. But we finally quit because it just wasn't the same without the others. I think, at the time I left, there were only 5 people that I knew that still played the game. That includes people outside of the guild. Without my friend there, there didn't really seem to be a point to playing any more.

[Felderburg]

If this is true then that's really poor reasoning.  If the talks failed and there's no NDA preventing them from saying so, they need to say so.  I can understand not wanting to be demoralizing, but surely they don't want to leave people hanging either?

Here's a general question on NDAs: how tongue-in-cheek, "wink wink, nudge nudge" can you be and not be in trouble for violating an NDA?

In the example above, it sounds like darkgob wants the team to say: "Well, we can't say that the talks have failed, because that's part of the NDA. So we're not going to say it. WINK."

[Baaleos]

If this is true then that's really poor reasoning.  If the talks failed and there's no NDA preventing them from saying so, they need to say so.  I can understand not wanting to be demoralizing, but surely they don't want to leave people hanging either?

I agree - it would be nice of them to even say 'we are alive and still interested'
My earlier post about the game being dated etc was not meant to be anti-CoH, it was just a realism check.

I loved the game mechanics and story to pieces - its the only game that let me play as a parasitic energy based life form. (Warshade)

However, from a development/business/publishing standpoint, I can understand why any developer, business would be hesitant to take on CoH.

While I wish it would return, even I have to admit that the game did suffer from dwindling numbers - whether that be from competitors or maybe just the type of games that hit the market in those last few years - who knows.

Developer's - usually hates inheriting other peoples(business's) code/game engines etc - because there is alot of risk involved with trying to maintain code that they are unfamiliar with. (Thats even with the proper documentation and a coding/engine style that is maintainable. Sometimes the prospective buyer will get outside independent contractors to assess the viability of buying and maintaining the code base. The new dev's don't want to spend 2 million buying it, then find they have to spend another 500k to modify the code to work on their own servers etc)

A business would be hesitant to pay money to support a game that was decommissioned by another business, unless they had some sort of super secret that was suddenly going to make the game viable and self sustaining, then the question becomes - why didn't NCSoft do that to begin with? (Hosting the game in its I1 or I23 / I24 state - will cost money, regardless of what way we try to spin it. Developing a launcher that downloads and installs the game assets, removing/changing the old branding of NCSoft etc, will cost money : I would imagine the game once it is purchased would have to have updated Launcher screens, title screens etc - to reflect the change in ownership.)

There is undoubtedly a lot of things that from a business point of view need to be considered before a viable sale can occur for the game.
Many people in the community probably assume - 'Hey, I have the I24 Beta on my hdd, why can't I just launched it from the batch file and connect to an IP Address.'

That would probably be alright* if it was a private server and you were connecting to an emulator - but the new Dev would probably be legally obligated to change the game branding to reflect the change in ownership, which means Art assets need changing on loading screens, graphics in the launcher, and disclaimer text etc.
So you have artists that need to get involved, legal departments to draw up the disclaimer text etc.

* - me saying 'alright' does not condone the use of emulator software.

When you consider all the 'Real world crap' that has to happen when a sale of this magnitude is going down, it really drains the enthusiasm.

This is also assuming that the sale is definitely going to go through, if you take into consideration that the developers need to decide if it is financially feasible to purchase, maintain and support - the mood sinks even further.


If someone were to give me the CoH server software, I would happily host it on an AWS server. (I would - Would be fun to play City of Heroes again!)
But then as more people joined the server, I would need to increase the server spec, increasing the cost. (I might be inclined to increase the server spec to maybe 100 dollars a month)
Then I would need to start charging people a monthly subscription, so I was not out of pocket.  (If its gonna start costing me 100+ dollars a month, then im sorry, but I need reimbursed)
When people cancel their subscriptions, do I downsize my server pool to match? (My income is going down, so I need to lower my out goings too)

These are the sort of financial questions a prospective buyer might be thinking of when he considers buying a legacy game such as CoH.
Note: I know I am never getting the server software, I was just doing a hypothetical scenario.

[Baaleos]

Here's a general question on NDAs: how tongue-in-cheek, "wink wink, nudge nudge" can you be and not be in trouble for violating an NDA?

In the example above, it sounds like darkgob wants the team to say: "Well, we can't say that the talks have failed, because that's part of the NDA. So we're not going to say it. WINK."

The answer is two fold.
1. If you violate the NDA in any way, the other party in the NDA can hold you to it, take you to court, and sue for damages or breech of contract.
     The company can be a complete Nazi if they wanted to be, or they could be a friendly community based company that laughs and jokes with their gamers.
       
2. The other question would be: Is it in their interest to enforce it- how much damage did they sustain as a result of the NDA breech.
     Sometimes even subtle hints about deals going down the drain, can damage a companies reputation. If the deal was to fail due to an impasse that was caused by NCSofts failure to compromise, or assist, then that would hurt their image in the eyes of CoH lovers. Ergo -  They might lose players, suffer financial loss: in which case, yes - Lawsuit would be appropriate.
     

[CrimsonCapacitor]

RE: Ongoing talks

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4e/60/3b/4e603b790e7f09b7623fb259e0a2968d.jpg

[LaughingAlex]

I'm starting to think, and I hate saying this, but negotiations failing would make me come to the conclusion that all mmorpgs are scams and should never be made anymore.  Why do I feel that way?

Because every, single, other genre out there if the games are old, all that needs to be done is for communities to hack or patch the software.

MMORPG's however it's not the case.  This means they have no mark on the gaming industry, and are thus bad games.  And lets think about it, how many games out there are nothing but skinner boxes?  About 99 out of 100?  To me, these days my enjoyment in mmorpg's ended the moment CoH was announced as being shut down.  It's sad but alas, I just cannot bring myself to like any more right now.  I'm hopeful the spiritual successors do well, but I think the problem they seriously need to face up to is how to keep them running long after the days of development are done.

A player can download an open source engine and play doom on a modern computer.  The same can be done for Quake, Marathon, Hexen, Hexen 2, descent 1 and 2.  Basically you could just make this the whole shooter industry.
RTS's have been supported through fan community.
Actually just about every game genre out there could be patched to a modern computer.

But even then if you still had an old computer?  Brilliant you can run them even easier inspite no one running them!

But MMORPG's?  Nooooooo.

Yeah I know, dark of me this time, given my faith and hope the negotiations succeed, but to me, it's kind of an all or nothing deal in a sense.  At the very least, if they say yes once, we'll finally have the game back.  But I am assuming the negotiations are still on, but if the NDA somehow kept people from saying they said no, I'd be pissed if I ever found out and I'd just call the industry as a whole on it:

That they are all a bunch of scam artists not making anything but permanently-shutdownable-skinner-boxes who shut down the only game that wasn't.  Games that will be forever forgotten and deservedly so.

Also: The same goes for why I also oppose DRM demanding a player have access to a server or not.

[LaughingAlex]

I am 21 and would take CoH graphics and gameplay anyday assuming we cant have both. This is why I have high hopes for Irish Girls project.

I'm 30 and, even as someone who can get work and does(though I admit, stability has been something I haven't found anywhere), and I still play classic games and I still tend to take the older games over the newer most of the time.  Irish Girls project is one of the main reasons I really want the negotiations to succeed, because see, to me her project is a mod project.

I think mmorpgs need to start touching on moddability and community support after devs can no longer do so.  Because right now they really..I would say not competitive as games and not really lastable as games or as a genre.  Last night I was playing a game called Naev, which was a retro-raphics escape velocity successor, in a way.  But ever since it's earlier days, it's become something far more interesting than just another "find the ship with the most weapons room and win" like older escape velocity games.  Granted, it has a long way to go, it needs more story archs both small and large but it's gameplay is slowly becoming very solid.

Then there are all the mods and maps for older games.  From things like Kaizo Mario for Super mario world, to brutal doom for doom, and Marathon Rubicon for the marathon franchise ect, older games still get development from the community.  Why not mmorpgs after they get to a certain age?  Balance?  I suppose though mmorpg players are partly to blame for being munchkins, given how players treated AE as nothing more than a power leveling tool.  And yeah I say it definitely needs to be something that'd have to be moderated due to players doing that.  But mmorpgs are a genre that seriously is suffering from being effectively held hostage from publishers and developers from the onset, and I feel that an inability for a long term plan for games beyond just the first 4-8 years of content release that seriously hurts them.

And Irish Girl is doing exactly the kind of thing people should see players do for a legacy game.  If only the deal would succeed, we'd see the start of a new age in a sense should she succeed and such a project becomes one of the more successful mod projects.

[Brigadine]

There are no shenanigans, at least not in the sense that anyone is acting disingenuously.  At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the negotiations are over and have failed.  I don't think anyone is saying on the record, "The negotiations are over and have failed," because 1) they want to leave the possibility of acquiring the game in the future open, and 2) because that's kind of a sucky thing to hear; it's demoralizing and we don't like being demoralizing.  But I assure you that there is no intent to yank people's... whatever.

Now, having said that, keep in mind that I'm not on the negotiating team, so that is merely my opinion.  Take it as a data point, but don't write it in stone or anything.

Oh, and if you are demoralized, just remember what I keep telling everybody.  They can say no a thousand times, but all it takes is for them to say yes once.

They need to say so, or say something. I think that's BULL if we get left hanging. NC has an NDA for failed talks. That's just low.

[Wyrm]

There are no shenanigans, at least not in the sense that anyone is acting disingenuously.  At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the negotiations are over and have failed.  I don't think anyone is saying on the record, "The negotiations are over and have failed," because 1) they want to leave the possibility of acquiring the game in the future open, and 2) because that's kind of a sucky thing to hear; it's demoralizing and we don't like being demoralizing.  But I assure you that there is no intent to yank people's... whatever.

Thanks for the honest appraisal.  I'll go see about setting an alert for that Other Thread.  I enjoy reading some of the discussions in this thread, but it feels oddly unhealthy to keep doing to myself.

It's ironic.  Just yesterday, I was reading the forums and getting frustrated with people who were willing to say, "I've given up."  I guess I haven't, at least not completely.  But learned helplessness is a powerful thing.

[Linuial]

Oh, and if you are demoralized, just remember what I keep telling everybody.  They can say no a thousand times, but all it takes is for them to say yes once.

Here is my input on the subject.  In 1968, Star Trek (TOS) was canceled.  Ruth Berman organized a letter-writing campaign that was so ferocious that NBC put an announcement on the air that it had been UN-canceled in order to stop the daily flood of mail at their offices.  ST continued for one successive year, which was enough to get the 3 years required at the time to go into syndication. 

For years, my mother had hissy fits at me about "give it up, Star Trek is never coming back". 

It was ten years before ST returned, and look at it today. 

In 1969, there was no Internet, no email, we didn't even have home video recorders.  I used a (sound) tape recorder to tape the audio (only), play it back, and write up transcripts of the episodes.   

If you love City of Heroes the way I loved Star Trek (and the way I now love City of Heroes), then look at Star Trek now, and imagine a City of Heroes of ten years from now...looking like Star Trek does today. 

We didn't *have* a precedent to keep us going back then.  You do.  Use it.  Remember it.  Believe in it. 

Slash Holdtorch

[LaughingAlex]

They need to say so, or say something. I think that's BULL if we get left hanging. NC has an NDA for failed talks. That's just low.

Thats kind of my thought if thats the case.  It's bad enough for me that I for once think poorly of a game genre in the way that I do mmorpgs.  Even the other genres I'm not fond of, at least they have something to look forward to.  But MMORPGs have nothing.  The scam is up and in the open to me.  Thats why I think the talks have to succeed and there has to be some means to say "they failed".  If NCSoft has an NDA for that, it shows they are underhanded and irresponsible as a publisher.  I am STILL boycotting them, but if the talks failed and they had to cover that up, I won't be spending money on them.  Because it's mmorpg publishers that ensure that mmorpgs cannot ever stand the test of time, because they demand everything be a skinner box clone, and because they STILL refuse to ever do anything beyond that.

[LaughingAlex]

Here is my input on the subject.  In 1968, Star Trek (TOS) was canceled.  Ruth Berman organized a letter-writing campaign that was so ferocious that NBC put an announcement on the air that it had been UN-canceled in order to stop the daily flood of mail at their offices.  ST continued for one successive year, which was enough to get the 3 years required at the time to go into syndication. 

For years, my mother had hissy fits at me about "give it up, Star Trek is never coming back". 

It was ten years before ST returned, and look at it today. 

In 1969, there was no Internet, no email, we didn't even have home video recorders.  I used a (sound) tape recorder to tape the audio (only), play it back, and write up transcripts of the episodes.   

If you love City of Heroes the way I loved Star Trek (and the way I now love City of Heroes), then look at Star Trek now, and imagine a City of Heroes of ten years from now...looking like Star Trek does today. 

We didn't *have* a precedent to keep us going back then.  You do.  Use it.  Remember it.  Believe in it. 

Slash Holdtorch

Very inspirational.

Heres my inspiration for everyone...now that you do this.

Remember Deus Ex.

The original was FANTASTIC.  A lightning in a bottle shooter/RPG hybrid that truely pulled off what even a game before it hadn't; no perfect way to pick JC Dentons skills and no "you lose for not taking x or y skill" like so many games before.  A game battling the issues of machine taking man's purpose in life away, while also going into the intricate world of conspiracy.  But then in 2003 a sequel completely and utterly missed the feel of the game came out.  While it had the "multiple solutions in every sitation" thing in place, it missed the whole conspiracy and questions of humanity that the original game had.

Then in 2011, Deus Ex Human Revolution came out, with a return to the roots of the original.  It was exactly what DX: Invisible war should have been in so many ways.  Once again it battles the questions of technology obsoleting man in some way, while also batting issues such as conspiracy, and real life issues.  From the shanty towns in Detroit to litteral pod-hotels turned into pod-apartments leaving people in essentially barracks life, to the high rises of the .001% who have everything and catch-22 economics, the player was fully reminded of real life in the game.  All the while dealing with the world in the game as it existed, the dark cyber-punk feel that made the original so great.

Things like this take time.  And in the world eventually things will finally come around as there is always an end to the low points in life and art.

[Linuial]

Here is my second thought.  I've read that Korean business operates by the Code of Bushido, that it is a code based on honor, not on profit.  If that is indeed correct, the take-away is that when NcSoft shuttered CoX, they refused to sell the IP as to do so would be an admission that they were wrong to shut it down in the first place, a loss of "face", of pride and honor. 

I would like to propose a new project, a new initiative, based on the idea of honor and loss of face. 

This is something we *all* could do, not the administrators of titan.com, not Disney, not someone with deep pockets or contacts. 

I would like to propose a City of Heroes Player Honor Project, to whit: explore what we ourselves can do to gain the attention of NcSoft by acting in accordance with *their* notions of propriety. 

I can see the organization of a "Group Bow".  In real life, gather groups of people together and take photos of them bowing, in the correct Oriental fashion.  We already have an Oriental-style "bow" emote...organize a mass Group Bow on the steps of City Hall in Atlas.  Send the results to NcSoft. 

There must be players who are familiar with the culture...seek out their input on exactly how to approach NcSoft from the point of view of convincing them that to return the IP to the people who love it is the *honorable* thing to do.  Instead of spitting invective at them for shutting it down and withholding the IP, praise them for their original accomplishment, thank them for allowing us to have this experience in the first place, and promise that if it is returned to us, in any form, that we will continue upholding and supporting it, as a legacy of honor for NcSoft. 

Am I completely insane...?  Or "crazy like a fox"? 

[Linuial]

"Bushidō expanded and formalized the earlier code of the samurai, and stressed frugality, loyalty, mastery of martial arts, and honor to the death...Some versions of Bushidō include compassion for those of lower station, and for the preservation of one's name...Early bushidō literature further enforces the requirement to conduct oneself with calmness, fairness, justice, and propriety."

The Bushidō code is typified by eight virtues:
    Righteousness (義 gi?)
    Courage (勇 yū?)
    Benevolence (仁 jin?)
    Respect (礼 rei?)
    Sincerity (誠 makoto?)
    Honor (名誉 meiyo?)
    Loyalty (忠義 chūgi?)
    Self-Control (自制 jisei?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Tenets

If we want NcSoft to give us the CoX IP, perhaps we should all be focusing on these concepts, and how to communicate this to NcSoft.  It could be a start. 

[adarict]

As much as I dislike PvP, I was a member of a guild, on the Realm,  that was formed around the idea of protecting those lower level characters from the groups of jerks that would jump them for the fun of it. The Guild was called the Tiny Terminators. All Elves, and all had names with 2 Ts in them. Like. Tiny Terminator (founder of the guild), Totally Tiny, Tobi Two, Tom Terrific,  and my character, This Toon. Not to be confused with one of my brothers alts, That Toon. We didn't have to engage in PvP all that often, but we were always ready to help out the little guys.

Unfortunately, around the time that CoH came out, the guild just about disappeared. a few of us hung in there for a few more years. But we finally quit because it just wasn't the same without the others. I think, at the time I left, there were only 5 people that I knew that still played the game. That includes people outside of the guild. Without my friend there, there didn't really seem to be a point to playing any more.

I don't remember the name of the guild, but it quite possibly was that one.  A friend of mine and I used to play Realm all the time, and saw the same thing happening.  Some of the jumpers weren't even terribly high level.  One of the guilds trying to protect people saw me jumping into fights when the newer people were getting jumped, and gave me...  I don't remember if it was a ring or cloak of invisibility.  Would use that to stay hidden.  The jumpers didn't expect invisible people to be there if they weren't one of the jumpers.  :)

I really loved that game.  Many years later I married one of the GMs from that game, though I didn't know at the time that she had ever played it.  A few months ago while I was cleaning some stuff in the garage, I found the CD of the game complete with the activation code.  :)  I tend not to throw stuff away 

[Arcana]

Here is my second thought.  I've read that Korean business operates by the Code of Bushido

I think it is more likely NCSoft follows the code of Sinanju than Bushido.