New efforts!

[LateNights]

It's a shame Einstein isn't alive if for no other reason than to invite Joshex to work with him...

- just so we can observe which of the two actually did any work.

I'm "guessing" it's the dude with the Nobel prize.

Oh, by the way,

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXuadbFaV65KDQWxn8zQwIaYYhKfnau4_QlPYV5IhLQqiUpaDi1NNpHp5SMg

Those aren't the words of a man speaking in terms of his being "right" or "wrong"...

- Those are the words of a man actually doing the work because he loves the work.

[Baaleos]

Well, When Einstein did write all that theoretical stuff about relativity and stuff, he hadn't seen the Stargate movie and TV-Show.
He obviously should have waited until it came out before writing his theories, because the TV-Show alone pokes holes in loads of preconceptions about the universe.
Such as time dilation extending beyond the reach of gravitational fields, instead of existing within the gravitational field. (Allow me to cite my Scientific evidence : here) : You might have to watch the episode to see the scientific proof. Lol

[Joshex]

There is a very limited subset of people who have brilliant creative insights and produce brilliant creative insights without years of study, and who may be self-taught.

Musician-composers.
Fiction writers.
Artists.

Please note that not one of these three is in a field where rigorous application of math, logic, or scientific examination is required.  For everything else, years, even decades, of study is required, because you cannot make postulations without building on previous, proven knowledge, appearances are often deceiving, and "common sense" may not apply.

actually I agree partially, however there is a science that can be applied to each of these areas you've listed, yet few people actually bother to spend time doing the research. They get varying results.

Felderburg, as I've said previously the test with the lazerbeams presented multiple flaws which could have contributed to the test results. I don't believe it was a 'gravity wave' so much as it was something else entirely (I have a pretty good Idea of what, microseisms).

How else to explain things? simple, don't go making wild hypotheses about things you don't understand and calling them theory. If you don't understand and have to make-up untheorized stuff to prove it, then chances are there is something you concluded incorrectly, which means there are other sources which need to be observed in order to fill-in those knowledge gaps. Einstein was obviously tired of thinking, so he took the easy way out; make something up to fill the gap of unknowns that sounds remotely plausible.

another example, a person (we'll call him dipsod) that knows nothing of the internal workings of a clock, might assume the hands turn because of the motion of the earth and pull in relation to the sun and moon. obviously dipsod is wrong, but see how wild it sounds? now lets make matters worse, lets assume that no one had any way to get inside or look inside the clock (it's outer case is made of impervium and lined internally with lead, and the outer case is one solid piece, no way to dismantle it.) no other clocks exist, and the only people who knew how it worked died in some horrible catastrophe at a clock convention and all the recordings of how clocks work were lost irrevocably in a mass fire+data crash. Now dipsod's 'theory' above starts gaining steam, as far as science goes, it might very well be plausible. doesn't make it true. But then dipsod's theory goes generations and people have started to try to find ways to prove his theory with complicated experiments, until someone has a Eureka moment where they find the effects that could be being applied/used inside the clock to make it function as proposed by dipsod. It still doesn't change the fact that inside the clock is an array of gears being powered by one form or another of a motion drive.

a good rule of thumb; if something deals with something directly, it will not be that hard to find.

Why are there no other 'gravity waves'? you'd think if gravity were so prevalent there'd be all sorts of ripples everywhere in space and it'd be obvious. heck it'd be easily testable because apparently gravity waves don't just exist in space, they go through planets too so the laser-tunnel system would be picking up small changes all the time from the gravity conflicts near earth heck even just the gravitational interaction of the earth and moon would generate something that the laser would pick up. But it didn't.

again Einstien knew the final outcome of what he was searching for, because that can be recorded. but he did not know what he was searching for so he made it up as best as he could. it just so happens that there is no direct way to actually find out whats out there, and there is no one to tell us how it works either. So as far as science is concerned Einstein is "close enough".

but again, I know for a fact that what Einstein postulated as gravity and time-space is false, in fact gravity can be explained with the known elements of our universe, there's nothing to be unknown or theoretical about it. time-space? sorry there is no such thing. the only relation between time and space is that time is a motion than enables space to be space for another microsecond. Time itself however is actually of no relation or consequence to the fabric of the universe. time is relatively meaningless for the fabric of the universe.

[ivanhedgehog]

actually I agree partially, however there is a science that can be applied to each of these areas you've listed, yet few people actually bother to spend time doing the research. They get varying results.

Felderburg, as I've said previously the test with the lazerbeams presented multiple flaws which could have contributed to the test results. I don't believe it was a 'gravity wave' so much as it was something else entirely (I have a pretty good Idea of what, microseisms).

How else to explain things? simple, don't go making wild hypotheses about things you don't understand and calling them theory. If you don't understand and have to make-up untheorized stuff to prove it, then chances are there is something you concluded incorrectly, which means there are other sources which need to be observed in order to fill-in those knowledge gaps. Einstein was obviously tired of thinking, so he took the easy way out; make something up to fill the gap of unknowns that sounds remotely plausible.

another example, a person (we'll call him dipsod) that knows nothing of the internal workings of a clock, might assume the hands turn because of the motion of the earth and pull in relation to the sun and moon. obviously dipsod is wrong, but see how wild it sounds? now lets make matters worse, lets assume that no one had any way to get inside or look inside the clock (it's outer case is made of impervium and lined internally with lead, and the outer case is one solid piece, no way to dismantle it.) no other clocks exist, and the only people who knew how it worked died in some horrible catastrophe at a clock convention and all the recordings of how clocks work were lost irrevocably in a mass fire+data crash. Now dipsod's 'theory' above starts gaining steam, as far as science goes, it might very well be plausible. doesn't make it true. But then dipsod's theory goes generations and people have started to try to find ways to prove his theory with complicated experiments, until someone has a Eureka moment where they find the effects that could be being applied/used inside the clock to make it function as proposed by dipsod. It still doesn't change the fact that inside the clock is an array of gears being powered by one form or another of a motion drive.

a good rule of thumb; if something deals with something directly, it will not be that hard to find.

Why are there no other 'gravity waves'? you'd think if gravity were so prevalent there'd be all sorts of ripples everywhere in space and it'd be obvious. heck it'd be easily testable because apparently gravity waves don't just exist in space, they go through planets too so the laser-tunnel system would be picking up small changes all the time from the gravity conflicts near earth heck even just the gravitational interaction of the earth and moon would generate something that the laser would pick up. But it didn't.

again Einstien knew the final outcome of what he was searching for, because that can be recorded. but he did not know what he was searching for so he made it up as best as he could. it just so happens that there is no direct way to actually find out whats out there, and there is no one to tell us how it works either. So as far as science is concerned Einstein is "close enough".

but again, I know for a fact that what Einstein postulated as gravity and time-space is false, in fact gravity can be explained with the known elements of our universe, there's nothing to be unknown or theoretical about it. time-space? sorry there is no such thing. the only relation between time and space is that time is a motion than enables space to be space for another microsecond. Time itself however is actually of no relation or consequence to the fabric of the universe. time is relatively meaningless for the fabric of the universe.

you can show us the math of course. and show us your peer reviewed papers proving your "facts". between you and Einstein, I choose to believe big Al.

[Baaleos]

Loving the text above Joshex's rank. Dunno how long its been like that, but fair play...

[citation needed]


Lol

Space-time is generally accepted as a non-physical object or form of matter, it is instead a mathematical concept, model or construct to represent space/matter moving/existing through the dimension of time. So strictly speaking - saying that 'Spacetime' is not real, is correct, its not something that exists, it is instead something that we choose to perceive, the combination of space and time. Its a human invention.

Marvel Agents of Shield did a good job of explaining it in the recent episode 'Spacetime'

If a sheet of paper is a single snapshot of reality, or the universe.
Then a stack of them would represent spacetime.

Going from the bottom page, to the top, would be the progression of time.

[LateNights]

I'm a Dragon - I won't prove it - but I am...

I expect you all to believe me because I've said as much, not because our brains are wired to learn from having experience prove things, which results in proof becoming desirable when making certain claims at some point in human evolution.

Or are they?

Fuck it, here's a Tiger

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQW0w-RLdmjzRJd2lRCQdYw0UC__mLbp7u84_zqYBdCXfe5go1AsBaBHbdCIg

Because I call them Tigers, so they're Tigers now...

All of which means I'm the Grand High Wizard of very little in reality, but quite a lot of stuff I read other people write about and decided I like the sound of more than actual proof.

Pretty sure most of that was worth both the time to write, as well as read.

I'll be asking for donations as soon as I've released all the documents I keep on these matters to the public, which will be shortly before I disappear from the face of the planet as I'll be riding shotgun with the advanced group of Aliens I discovered working with the U.S government in Area 51 approx. 12 years before I was born, while I was gestating in a test tube to produce my vast intellect.

And that kids, is scientific FACT.

[Shibboleth]

Why are there no other 'gravity waves'? you'd think if gravity were so prevalent there'd be all sorts of ripples everywhere in space and it'd be obvious. heck it'd be easily testable because apparently gravity waves don't just exist in space, they go through planets too so the laser-tunnel system would be picking up small changes all the time from the gravity conflicts near earth heck even just the gravitational interaction of the earth and moon would generate something that the laser would pick up. But it didn't.

I am just going to note that of the fundamental forces, gravity is by far the weakest. The force on two  stationary electrons one meter apart due to their charges is 9*10⁹ as powerful as the gravitational force between them. Detecting gravitational waves is something Einstein himself wasn't sure would ever be done. And that before we consider all mechanical influences whose unavoidable presence stand to interfere with the working of a detector.

[duane]

deleted!  Found the answer over in another forum

[Baaleos]

Why are there no other 'gravity waves'? you'd think if gravity were so prevalent there'd be all sorts of ripples everywhere in space and it'd be obvious. heck it'd be easily testable because apparently gravity waves don't just exist in space, they go through planets too so the laser-tunnel system would be picking up small changes all the time from the gravity conflicts near earth heck even just the gravitational interaction of the earth and moon would generate something that the laser would pick up. But it didn't.

Surely that one instance where we detected 'gravity waves' was an edge case that was made possibly by two powerful black holes spinning around each other and ultimately colliding. I don't know if black holes spinning around each other at rapid rates is a fairly common occurrence - given that when they collide, they effectively become a single entity, meaning there is a short window of detection.

The waves perceived by the detection equipment was a sharp increase of amplitude, which then subsided. (Heck - for all I know, it could have just been a lorry driving past)

Detecting the waves in the first place required either
1. Equipment sensitive enough to detect the low threshold that conceivably represents a change in gravity
2. Extreme change in gravity that increases the detection threshold.

The reason we don't detect them left right and center is because we don't currently have the equipment / technology that detects them at sufficiently low a threshold to find them in nature without some other factors helping us out.

The reason we did detect a single instance of it, was because a specific set of conditions came together at the right time, which allowed our existing technology to detect them. Eg: Two powerful black holes spinning around eachother, and then ultimately colliding, resulting in the perceived pattern then subsiding.

[Reaper]

As much as I would love an update regarding the CoH deal, I have to say that the entertainment has been great while we wait.

However, now it has me thinking which would be worse; Trolling a bunch of people through the guise of "science" or actually believing what you post as fact?  Because I can see signs of both...

...And what was Einstein's alleged definition of insanity?   ;)

[MM3squints]

...And what was Einstein's alleged definition of insanity?   ;)

Einstein may have quoted it first, but this guy was comical in hitting the point of the word insanity

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img01.deviantart.net%2F41b1%2Fi%2F2013%2F012%2F3%2F1%2Fvaas_montenegro_by_darksem-d5r9fk7.png

[Felderburg]

Felderburg, as I've said previously the test with the lazerbeams presented multiple flaws which could have contributed to the test results. I don't believe it was a 'gravity wave' so much as it was something else entirely (I have a pretty good Idea of what, microseisms).

How else to explain things? simple, don't go making wild hypotheses about things you don't understand and calling them theory. If you don't understand and have to make-up untheorized stuff to prove it, then chances are there is something you concluded incorrectly, which means there are other sources which need to be observed in order to fill-in those knowledge gaps. Einstein was obviously tired of thinking, so he took the easy way out; make something up to fill the gap of unknowns that sounds remotely plausible.

another example, a person (we'll call him dipsod) that knows nothing of the internal workings of a clock, might assume the hands turn because of the motion of the earth and pull in relation to the sun and moon. obviously dipsod is wrong, but see how wild it sounds? now lets make matters worse, lets assume that no one had any way to get inside or look inside the clock (it's outer case is made of impervium and lined internally with lead, and the outer case is one solid piece, no way to dismantle it.) no other clocks exist, and the only people who knew how it worked died in some horrible catastrophe at a clock convention and all the recordings of how clocks work were lost irrevocably in a mass fire+data crash. Now dipsod's 'theory' above starts gaining steam, as far as science goes, it might very well be plausible. doesn't make it true. But then dipsod's theory goes generations and people have started to try to find ways to prove his theory with complicated experiments, until someone has a Eureka moment where they find the effects that could be being applied/used inside the clock to make it function as proposed by dipsod. It still doesn't change the fact that inside the clock is an array of gears being powered by one form or another of a motion drive.

a good rule of thumb; if something deals with something directly, it will not be that hard to find.

I still don't get how people are supposed to be doing any experiments or science in your scenario. You sort of make it seem like anything that isn't "true" is worthless - and of course no one is going to know the truth if the clock is unable to be opened. Your analogy makes it sound like none of the people looking at the clock should even bother, because they will never know the truth.

If your clock guy can't get into the clock, of course they're going to come up with explanations that aren't correct. And of course someone later with a Eureka moment might realize that there could be something inside, and they would be more correct. But that doesn't change the fact that the first clock guy was at least trying to come up with an explanation that was reasonable and made sense based on the motion of the clock that he saw.

And then, as you say, people come up with better ways of applying the theory, and realize it might not work. So they come up with a better theory. Just because the first theory was wrong doesn't mean it wasn't a valid attempt at figuring something out. And in fact, it was a necessary step towards finding the truth - without the erroneous theory that made later generations realize it had convoluted calculations and might not be correct, they never would have arrived at something closer to the truth. And that's the whole point of science - just because something isn't "true" doesn't mean it's not useful.

We are indeed like the clock people, in that we may never be unable to open the clock. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to figure out what makes it move.

[Vee]

We are indeed like the clock people

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fdisney%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fdf%2FBeauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-3825.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20140324041800

[Felderburg]

Time for some more pixels.

[Arcana]

and there we have it a physical thing moving faster than the speed of light violates relativity (outside of the constraints that we can explain it away with a bend of space time).

Electrons move faster than light inside a nuclear reactor. Does that mean space-time is bent there? or does it mean light slowed down? or does it mean the electrons were actually moving faster than light?

None of those things.  Once again, you simply don't understand, and are taking colloquial discussions at face-value.  Special relativity places limits on things moving at a very specific speed, which is the universal constant c.  C is the C in E=MC^2.  It is 299792458 meters per second, and it is the propagation speed of electromagnetic waves in a vacuum.  It is the speed of a photon in a vacuum.  However, the actual speed of propagation of electromagnetic waves in a material substance is different than this value depending on the properties of the material (and always lower).

Beta decay electrons are often emitted from nuclear reactions at very high energies and thus very high velocities: their speed can approach the value c.  But they never exceed that value.  However, when they are emitted within the environment of a nuclear reactor they are emitted into the surrounding cooling water.  The propagation speed of electromagnetic radiation in water - colloquially the speed of light in water - is about 0.75c (depending on a number of factors like density, temperature, and there is a wavelength-dependent component).  Beta decay electrons are emitted at a lot of energies across a decay energy curve, but at say 1 MeV the beta decay electron would be moving at about 0.95c, or about 95% of the speed of light in a vacuum.  But that is significantly higher than the propagation velocity of light in water.  Whenever a charged particle moves through a dielectric medium, it causes the constituent atoms to oscillate from a polarized to non-polarized state and as they do they emit radiation.  Normally that radiation is too faint to be seen.  But when the charged particle is moving faster than the propagation speed of electromagnetic radiation within the medium, the radiation emitted in the wake of the particle can constructively reinforce the radiation the particle continues to generate as it moves.  The early radiation reinforces the later radiation like the waves in the wake of a boat, and that radiation can become visible in certain wavelengths.  That's what Cherenkov radiation is.

Think of it this way.  When a speeding particle passes by an atom in water, it causes the water to emit some light.  If the particle is moving slower than the speed of light in water, then by the time the particle reaches another atom the light the first atom emitted overtook the particle and passed by: the second atom then emits its own weak blip of light, and then the next, and then the next.  But if the particle is moving faster than the propagation speed of light in water, it can actually reach the second atom before the light emitted from the first atom gets there.  There's now time for the light from the first atom to "catch up" with the second atom and have the second atom emit its light at about the same time the light from the first atom arrives.  In effect, the light from the first atom gets amplified by the second atom, and then the third, and eventually you have an effect that produces light strong enough for human eyeballs to see.  That's not exactly how it works, but it suggests the reason why there's a difference between slow particles and ones moving faster than the propagation speed of light in water.

Just five minutes of google searching would at least find articles explaining how the propagation of light can be slower in materials than a vacuum, and the relativistic limits of motion specifically reference the value c, the propagation speed of light in a vacuum, and not just "the speed of light" outside of context.  C, the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant.  However, the measured speed of light when passing through materials that can obstruct or slow its propagation is always slower than c.  That slow down is due to electromagnetic effects, not some change in the way space-time operates.  Individual particles that are not electromagnetic waveforms can move faster than that in those materials.

In my perspective Einstein's space-time+gravity theory just lumps everything no one knows squat about (other than how it visibly effects things) into one occurrence. It makes predictions of behavior, but those predictions are not actually predictions at all, they are "readings", observations. it's a generalization, an opinion. it's like refusing to go to comic-con, then assuming everyone that goes to comic-con is there solely for the comics. it's an outside perspective with 0 knowledge of the actual inner happenings other than what you can ascertain from the outside (and maybe you didn't consider everything, like "why are all those people dressed in costumes?",  "must be putting on a show or something...").

Einstein knew that there were unexplained effects in the universe that added up to certain outcomes, he knew the outcomes before he knew what caused them.

Your perspective is provably false.  Special and General Relativity makes predictions that are verifiable, and both theories made predictions about phenomena that no one had ever witnessed before and thus no one could accurately predict what would happen when the observations were made.  The theories also don't just predict "something happens" but make mathematically precise predictions.  When competing theories have arisen that claim to explain all of the same phenomena that special or general relativity explain just differently, those theories so far end up making predictions that are numerically different than relativity, and experiments verify Einsteinian calculations over those competing theories.  Among those predictions that no one had witnessed before and thus Einstein was not simply explaining away are gravitational lensing, gravitational redshifting, gravitational frame-dragging near rotating massive bodies, and of course gravitational waves.

[Arcana]

however there is a science that can be applied to each of these areas you've listed, yet few people actually bother to spend time doing the research.

This level of hypocrisy should be a felony.

[Arcana]

Why are there no other 'gravity waves'? you'd think if gravity were so prevalent there'd be all sorts of ripples everywhere in space and it'd be obvious. heck it'd be easily testable because apparently gravity waves don't just exist in space, they go through planets too so the laser-tunnel system would be picking up small changes all the time from the gravity conflicts near earth heck even just the gravitational interaction of the earth and moon would generate something that the laser would pick up. But it didn't.

Or, you can actually *do* the calculations that relativity mandates, and see what the magnitude of the gravitational waves would be for all the things you think generate them, and see that for most of them the magnitude of those waves is currently below the threshold of detection.

Its actually a straw man argument of the first order to state that if gravitational waves exist at all, they must be extremely large and wildly easy to detect, and because that's false Einstein is false.  Relativity doesn't make those predictions, and just because you think it should doesn't make it so.  You're not even qualified to spell-check relativity much less make claims about what it predicts.

[Arcana]

It's a shame Einstein isn't alive if for no other reason than to invite Joshex to work with him...

I was thinking it would be a better service to mankind to airdrop Joshex into North Korea just to set their nuclear weapons program back about three hundred years.

[LaughingAlex]

I was thinking it would be a better service to mankind to airdrop Joshex into North Korea just to set their nuclear weapons program back about three hundred years.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

[LateNights]

I was thinking it would be a better service to mankind to airdrop Joshex into North Korea just to set their nuclear weapons program back about three hundred years.

;D

He did say he's been to China, so it's very possible he was actually in Korea...