New efforts!

[Kelltick]

Yeah, I heard about that yesterday.  I don't think this will have any major impact on any negotiations regarding the City of Heroes property. 

It is interesting to me that they decided to downsize Carbine so soon after Wildstar went F2P.  City of Heroes managed to last a full year after its transition, and whatever the complex reasons for the shutdown NCSoft did seem to give the game about a year after transition to make its decision.  Wildstar has only been F2P for about six months, which is a very short time to decide things weren't working out.  Either NCSoft has less patience than before, or it is also possible the F2P model really wasn't working for Wildstar to a large enough extent that the writing appeared on the wall pretty fast.

Taken from a thread on the Guild Wars 2 forums, here's a chart that breaks down NCSoft Q4 2015 earnings (note: earnings, not necessarily profits). WildStar is clearly underperforming, and it appears the F2P transition didn't help much, if at all.

Earnings chart


If interested, here's the thread for source: GW2 forum thread link

[Brigadine]

Yeah, I heard about that yesterday.  I don't think this will have any major impact on any negotiations regarding the City of Heroes property. 

It is interesting to me that they decided to downsize Carbine so soon after Wildstar went F2P.  City of Heroes managed to last a full year after its transition, and whatever the complex reasons for the shutdown NCSoft did seem to give the game about a year after transition to make its decision.  Wildstar has only been F2P for about six months, which is a very short time to decide things weren't working out.  Either NCSoft has less patience than before, or it is also possible the F2P model really wasn't working for Wildstar to a large enough extent that the writing appeared on the wall pretty fast.

True, at some point NC is gunna run out of revinue sources, not to mention nobody wanting to put time into their games because they will most likely have a super short lifespan...

[Brigadine]

Taken from a thread on the Guild Wars 2 forums, here's a chart that breaks down NCSoft Q4 2015 earnings (note: earnings, not necessarily profits). WildStar is clearly underperforming, and it appears the F2P transition didn't help much, if at all.

Earnings chart


If interested, here's the thread for source: GW2 forum thread link

I think L2 is getting the axe next. They screwed it up HARD with the loot adena ninja nerfs.

[Ohioknight]

deleteing my own comment because the answer was already discussed  d'oh  :-\

[Mistress Urd]

True, at some point NC is gunna run out of revinue sources, not to mention nobody wanting to put time into their games because they will most likely have a super short lifespan...

Yep. I'm not going to support their stuff based on how the whole CoH thing went down. I vote with my wallet. If they really want to make a deal, it should have been done yesterday.

To the folks trying to get the game back, I applaud your efforts, it shows real dedication and I hope it comes through soon enough that I haven't written off CoH completely and moved on.

[Brigadine]

Yep. I'm not going to support their stuff based on how the whole CoH thing went down. I vote with my wallet. If they really want to make a deal, it should have been done yesterday.

To the folks trying to get the game back, I applaud your efforts, it shows real dedication and I hope it comes through soon enough that I haven't written off CoH completely and moved on.

Amen. Personally, I think they just created negotiations for the press. I don't think they have ever been in good faith...

[Groundbreaker]

Amen. Personally, I think they just created negotiations for the press. I don't think they have ever been in good faith...

I personally don't think this is the case. My understanding was that they didn't want any information about the deal to get out, hence NDAs and the leak was unexpected by them. This is hardly the actions of a group who want publicity. They will get far more good publicity from selling the IP than from stringing us all along.

This doesn't mean they aren't going to tank the deal in the end. But until we have any other news I prefer to stay hopeful that the game I love will be back within my lifetime.

[Arcana]

I personally don't think this is the case. My understanding was that they didn't want any information about the deal to get out, hence NDAs and the leak was unexpected by them. This is hardly the actions of a group who want publicity. They will get far more good publicity from selling the IP than from stringing us all along.

Since the leak was on our side, and since there was exactly zero discussion of these negotiations beyond back room rumors prior to the leak, there's no chance at all that NCSoft decided to enter into perpetual negotiations for some possible good press.  And if they always planned to terminate negotiations anyway, any good press they could possibly have gotten if the negotiations were made public would have been blown back at them.

There's no good reason at all to deliberately string negotiations along, because there's no benefit to NCSoft at all.  There's lots of good reasons for negotiations to get bogged down unintentionally, however.  And I don't mind reiterating: whatever the current state of negotations, and no matter how much begging the negotiating parties hears, and no matter how many people say they will give up if they don't hear some authoritative statement from some first hand party, my standing advice is to shut the hell up until every "i" is dotted and every "t" is crossed and the deal is done and the game is literally in their hands.

[Arcana]

Taken from a thread on the Guild Wars 2 forums, here's a chart that breaks down NCSoft Q4 2015 earnings (note: earnings, not necessarily profits). WildStar is clearly underperforming, and it appears the F2P transition didn't help much, if at all.

Earnings chart


If interested, here's the thread for source: GW2 forum thread link

My days of being interested in analyzing NCSoft financials has come and gone, but the chart does seem to show a slight uptick in revenue for Wildstar in Q4.  However, the chart has only one year so there's no way to account for seasonality and the scale is compressed enough to make it difficult to know if the difference is meaningful.

[Groundbreaker]

Since the leak was on our side, and since there was exactly zero discussion of these negotiations beyond back room rumors prior to the leak, there's no chance at all that NCSoft decided to enter into perpetual negotiations for some possible good press.  And if they always planned to terminate negotiations anyway, any good press they could possibly have gotten if the negotiations were made public would have been blown back at them.

There's no good reason at all to deliberately string negotiations along, because there's no benefit to NCSoft at all.  There's lots of good reasons for negotiations to get bogged down unintentionally, however.  And I don't mind reiterating: whatever the current state of negotations, and no matter how much begging the negotiating parties hears, and no matter how many people say they will give up if they don't hear some authoritative statement from some first hand party, my standing advice is to shut the hell up until every "i" is dotted and every "t" is crossed and the deal is done and the game is literally in their hands.

Exactly.

[JoshexProxy]

Since the leak was on our side, and since there was exactly zero discussion of these negotiations beyond back room rumors prior to the leak, there's no chance at all that NCSoft decided to enter into perpetual negotiations for some possible good press.  And if they always planned to terminate negotiations anyway, any good press they could possibly have gotten if the negotiations were made public would have been blown back at them.

There's no good reason at all to deliberately string negotiations along, because there's no benefit to NCSoft at all.  There's lots of good reasons for negotiations to get bogged down unintentionally, however.  And I don't mind reiterating: whatever the current state of negotations, and no matter how much begging the negotiating parties hears, and no matter how many people say they will give up if they don't hear some authoritative statement from some first hand party, my standing advice is to shut the hell up until every "i" is dotted and every "t" is crossed and the deal is done and the game is literally in their hands.

I'd like to add on; Keep up the great work negotiators! both ours and NCSoft's.

For those who say they wont play again if something doesn't happen soon: when it does come back, no matter how you fight it, you know the temptation will run over you like a herd of elephants on a rampage because the alpha cut one. especially when everyone else is having fun and all the old players start to be emailed, called, skyped, msged and facebooked back.

[Codewalker]

There's no good reason at all to deliberately string negotiations along, because there's no benefit to NCSoft at all.

There's no good business reason, but at the risk of opening a can of worms, it is not uncommon in South Korean culture to have a business meeting where everyone on both sides of a negotiation seems to agree, then after leaving one of the parties never implements their end of the deal. It can be difficult to find out why, but often they had no intention of proceeding, but did not want to put strain on their carefully maintained business relationships with the individuals in question. This is often seen by foreigners as duplicitous, but in Korean culture is considered perfectly acceptable and even expected.

Even if there is agreement, it can take a very long time:

When Another key principle of South Korean business culture is Inhwa, which is defined as harmony. As a collectivist society, consensus is an important element in promoting and maintaining harmony in South Korea. Inhwa was drawn from Confucian beliefs, and stresses harmony between people, especially unequals. Usually Koreans like to give positive answers and avoid or reluctant to give direct refusals. Koreans, perhaps, place greater importance on the concept of face (che-myon) than other Asians.

Usually, it takes longer for South Koreans to make a final decision, because all of the members need to consider others' opinions and values. The decision is based on the careful consideration of the interests of the whole team, and at the same time, maintaining the stable Kibun environment.

http://www.culturalsavvy.com/korea.htm

Another factor that is common to Confucian-oriented business people is an extreme reluctance to say no quickly and clearly to a proposition. Typically they will simply let things drag on, while at most giving off very subtle hints that the project is not going to go anywhere. One of the most common and clear-cut gambits for shelving a proposal is to say, "keul seh" - meaning "We'll think about it."

http://www.apmforum.com/columns/boye46.htm

[Codewalker]

I'll also point out that the above is exactly why Nexon was attempting to stage a hostile takeover. Nexon invested heavily in NCSoft after their executive management agreed to run some joint ventures together. The joint ventures never went anywhere, as NCSoft did not seriously pursue their end of it. Nexon eventually grew impatient and was trying to acquire a big enough interest to force the issue.

[Arcana]

There's no good business reason, but at the risk of opening a can of worms, it is not uncommon in South Korean culture to have a business meeting where everyone on both sides of a negotiation seems to agree, then after leaving one of the parties never implements their end of the deal. It can be difficult to find out why, but often they had no intention of proceeding, but did not want to put strain on their carefully maintained business relationships with the individuals in question. This is often seen by foreigners as duplicitous, but in Korean culture is considered perfectly acceptable and even expected.

There's a lot of different variations of this in different asian cultures, but they generally all have in common a lack of follow through with implementing an apparently done deal, not dragging on negotiations on the terms of the deal.  The idea is to make something not happen through what appears to be nebulous bureaucracy while everyone directly involved appears to have done their jobs properly, so there is no one to blame.

But it still seems unlikely that applies here, because the whole point of the exercise is to allow one side to effectively veto a deal that they don't want to have occur, but also don't want to directly reject.  There's no Korean cultural need to expose yourself to negotiations with total strangers and then quietly snub them that I'm aware of.  If they had no interest in the deal I don't see why they wouldn't have simply refused to negotiate in the first place.  There's no obvious thing to save here.

[zendarin]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of an NCSoft negotiation? The world may never know....

[Brigadine]

I personally don't think this is the case. My understanding was that they didn't want any information about the deal to get out, hence NDAs and the leak was unexpected by them. This is hardly the actions of a group who want publicity. They will get far more good publicity from selling the IP than from stringing us all along.

This doesn't mean they aren't going to tank the deal in the end. But until we have any other news I prefer to stay hopeful that the game I love will be back within my lifetime.

Fair point.

[JoshexProxy]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of an NCSoft negotiation? The world may never know....

that comment is extremely lewd, you have my condone+ment, as this was a joke of epic proportion worthy of the image on the perfect zinger enhancement set series, and one of the expected things to pour out of my tank's mouth accordingly.

to be fair my tank can make sailors cry.

I mean, the way you stuck that innuendo in there. So sly.

[Aggelakis]

that comment is extremely lewd, you have my condone+ment, as this was a joke of epic proportion worthy of the image on the perfect zinger enhancement set series, and one of the expected things to pour out of my tank's mouth accordingly.

to be fair my tank can make sailors cry.

I mean, the way you stuck that innuendo in there. So sly.

That's... not an innuendo. Children these days make me sad.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0UYvsk6_foc/hqdefault.jpg

[Remaugen]

Thrrrrree!

[Kelltick]

that comment is extremely lewd, you have my condone+ment, as this was a joke of epic proportion worthy of the image on the perfect zinger enhancement set series, and one of the expected things to pour out of my tank's mouth accordingly.

to be fair my tank can make sailors cry.

I mean, the way you stuck that innuendo in there. So sly.

/facepalm