New efforts!

[Arcana]

Thanks Arcana for an always enlightened way of explaining things. Very helpful and indeed a good way to look at how to check which way is the "best" for power slotting choices.

You're welcome.

And its not that I am unaware that an additional slot at tier 4 would be miniscule in comparison to what the normal Alpha slot did. Its that I didn't like what the Alpha slot did to toons as a whole. To me, when I pugged and exemped down to find most people were crippled because they relied on their Alpha slot to cover dmg or acc or end issues, that was lazy planning...by both the player and the devs. They gave us too much, if you will, with that one slot. I felt a more gradual increase to your powers would have been more enjoyable.

A similar complaint happened when the invention system was introduced.  There were players that built for 50 only, and built for very specific concepts that required very specific numbers which of course degraded under exemplar.  I don't think the Alpha slot significantly worsened that problem, it just reintroduced it to a different group of players used to different things.  That went away after I9, and it was going away after I20.

And I wouldn't suggest that just a slot be the reward. I would actually suggest powers like the Lore Pets or the Nuke, etc be a choice for which Alpha tree to go for, but have a free slot be given to the player once tier 4 was reached. And I didn't like the level shifts either. Thought they should have just made an extra level instead of the 50+1. That was weird to me that I was 50+1 instead of 51.

What's the difference?  Quantitatively, there's no difference**.  But the intent was to drive home the fact that in terms of real levels, level 50 was it.  There was never going to be a level 51, with level 51 zones and level 51 specific content and level 51 villain groups.  Level 50 was the top of the world for conventional content.  The incarnate content would stack increasing power on level 50, but would never become level 51.  It was always intended to be an optional end game, not the continuation of the conventional game.

Plus, mechanically speaking level shifts can do things normal combat levels can't really do.  In a practical sense, ultimate inspirations can really only work as combat level shifts.  You can't "temporarily level" someone and then delevel them: that gets ugly very fast.


** Technically, there is a potential difference, but its a difference that itself partially explains why it wasn't done.  Technically speaking a level 51 player could have higher base stats than a level 50 player, except the player tables didn't exist for those levels.  If the incarnate system granted real levels rather than level shifts, the devs would have to extend all those player tables from level 50 to potentially level 58 and higher.  That's extra work for no true gameplay benefit.

[brothermutant]

What's the difference?  Quantitatively, there's no difference**.  But the intent was to drive home the fact that in terms of real levels, level 50 was it.  There was never going to be a level 51, with level 51 zones and level 51 specific content and level 51 villain groups.  Level 50 was the top of the world for conventional content.  The incarnate content would stack increasing power on level 50, but would never become level 51.  It was always intended to be an optional end game, not the continuation of the conventional game.

Difference, to me anyway, was that it kind of smacked of the pay-to-win mentality. Just felt like we were pushing people into the mega-teamups. Also, I hated playing with more than 8 people on the team, barring those random pull together team ups, like kicking Hami's gelatinous butt. Having too many toons on my wimpy computer over-taxed it so much so that I felt the need to dumb down my graphics setting in those instances. That is lame as the devs really went out of their way to make a graphically beautiful game and we should be able to enjoy that I felt.

[Arcana]

This got lost in the shuffle. The game did employ the memorization of generic IO recipes for crafters. You would buy and craft x recipes for say level 25 and y recipes for level 30. Upon completion you would earn a badge and not need to buy a level 25 or 30 recipe to craft another generic IO of that level. You would still need the salvage.

This was a good idea in theory, invented during I9 beta, that turned out to be based on a lot of theorycraft that turned out to be totally wrong.  It was thought that common IOs were "too expensive" and they were - relative to the game economy prior to I9.  And there was the belief that market actors would act to try to constrain the supply of things, which turned out to happen far less often than predicted**.  So the idea of allowing players to become "master craffters" was seen as a way to partially address both issues.  As it turned out, gaining the skill to make a common IO was to turn out to be about as useful by I10 as having the ability to craft random TOs. 


** I actually predicted both theories would turn out to be false, along with most of the market speculation that occurred pre-I9 release.  I will also admit that I did get significantly rich by betting on my own predictions for what the markets were going to do, and also being particularly satisfied by getting rich betting on predictions that were resoundingly denounced on the forums.

[Arcana]

Difference, to me anyway, was that it kind of smacked of the pay-to-win mentality.

I see it completely opposite.  Capping the game at 50 and introducing level shifts meant that all level 50 gear was promised to always be top of the game.  You could play to 50, and once there nothing that happened afterward in the incarnate system would ever invalidate your character's leveling.  Changing the level cap is a direct statement that your level-capped character is now just a middle level character, and if you choose to advance beyond that level you then have to worry about gear.  What happens to your level 50 gear when you choose to level to 54?

Although Incarnate content was a subscriber perk that otherwise required (paid) unlocking, it was totally optional, and you couldn't just pay your way through the incarnate content.  At least, there was no way to pay to advance through it any faster than I was advancing through it running Snow Globe's trials on Triumph.  But change the level cap, and there is a way to buy yourself a huge advantage: purchase auto-leveling enhancements via the Paragon Market.  Those were meaningless to level capped characters, and in the Paragon model your level capped characters would *always* be level capped.  But in your model, one day they wouldn't.  If not today, then eventually when the devs decided to add more levels.  Level shifts take that temptation away, forever.  You can now increase power level without ever changing the rule that level 50 was the top, and all level 50 gear would always work.

Different people perceived things in different ways, and practically every change in the game was accused of being a pay to win change, from the level 50 cap increase (which was intended from the beginning, not a change to the game's design) to the invention system to the incarnate system.  I can't address how people feel about something.  But I can say that objectively speaking, the way the incarnate system was designed was explicitly intended to avoid the problem you're highlighting, and I think relative to other MMOs it did so exceptionally well.

[brothermutant]

Eh, I guess. Maybe its the status of +"number" that bothers me. Or the constant asking of new pugs if they were level shifted. Very annoying trend. It was nearly as bad as when a PUG would take you for "almost" being a healer but demand they know what powers you had and how you slotted them before deciding if you can stay on the TF.

[Arcana]

Eh, I guess. Maybe its the status of +"number" that bothers me. Or the constant asking of new pugs if they were level shifted. Very annoying trend. It was nearly as bad as when a PUG would take you for "almost" being a healer but demand they know what powers you had and how you slotted them before deciding if you can stay on the TF.

Wouldn't those people instead just start filtering team search to include only the level 54s?  I mean on the one hand you'd stop hearing from them, but on the other hand it sort of hides the problem rather than solves it.  I suppose the devs could have added a level shift filter in the team search, but I don't think that would actually solve the problem you're describing in a way you'd find palatable.

Then again, maybe not.  How it would be, I wonder, if global ignore did what Paragon Chat can do making someone totally vanish altogether from your game, not just from chat, but completely.  I personally think there's some serious social engineering consequences worth considering, but maybe if the people who were annoyed by certain people's behavior literally didn't have to see their chat, see their character, or even see the visual effects of their powers at all, if that would be a net plus or minus in making gameplay more agreeable overall.

I'm now musing about the technical challenges of an instance anti-affinity algorithm.  People who run clusters would understand what crazy lunatic idea I'm thinking about.

[pinballdave]

This was a good idea in theory, invented during I9 beta, that turned out to be based on a lot of theorycraft that turned out to be totally wrong.  It was thought that common IOs were "too expensive" and they were - relative to the game economy prior to I9.  And there was the belief that market actors would act to try to constrain the supply of things, which turned out to happen far less often than predicted**.  So the idea of allowing players to become "master craffters" was seen as a way to partially address both issues.  As it turned out, gaining the skill to make a common IO was to turn out to be about as useful by I10 as having the ability to craft random TOs. 


** I actually predicted both theories would turn out to be false, along with most of the market speculation that occurred pre-I9 release.  I will also admit that I did get significantly rich by betting on my own predictions for what the markets were going to do, and also being particularly satisfied by getting rich betting on predictions that were resoundingly denounced on the forums.

I don't understand this at all. I used to sell a ton of level 30 and level 35 accuracy, damage, endurance, and recharge generic IOs on Wentworths. It was very valuable to for a crafter to be a master crafter so they didn't have to buy recipes, and it saved in base, wentworth, and personal storage.

I confess I was very evil. If the recipes of that desired range were available for the usual goofy pricing (lower priced than NPC sales) on wentworths, I would buy stacks and stacks of recipes and sell them at the npc vendor. I would get the crafting salvage I needed and dash over to the SG base (usually in Talos), craft until my gills were full of IO enhancers, then dash bash to WW and sell stacks and stacks of IO enhancers. It was definitely a shuttle run. What happened if some foo' tried to sell lower than my desired price? I would buy all the enhancers and resell at my higher price. The new powersets always signaled an imminent boom market.

I never became as wealthy as I wanted, but I never wanted for cash (or generic IOs).

[Taceus Jiwede]

I don't understand this at all. I used to sell a ton of level 30 and level 35 accuracy, damage, endurance, and recharge generic IOs on Wentworths. It was very valuable to for a crafter to be a master crafter so they didn't have to buy recipes, and it saved in base, wentworth, and personal storage.

I confess I was very evil. If the recipes of that desired range were available for the usual goofy pricing (lower priced than NPC sales) on wentworths, I would buy stacks and stacks of recipes and sell them at the npc vendor. I would get the crafting salvage I needed and dash over to the SG base (usually in Talos), craft until my gills were full of IO enhancers, then dash bash to WW and sell stacks and stacks of IO enhancers. It was definitely a shuttle run. What happened if some foo' tried to sell lower than my desired price? I would buy all the enhancers and resell at my higher price. The new powersets always signaled an imminent boom market.

I never became as wealthy as I wanted, but I never wanted for cash (or generic IOs).

Playing the market was the best way to make a fortune.  I would do something similar as well as a few other things.  I would buy up cheap IO's or set recipes I knew would go up and hold onto them until the price of the market went up.  Often I would use merits to buy expensive/highly wanted set pieces and then go sell them on then market.  I never had enough money though because the more money I made the more expensive my builds became.  My Mind/Earth Dom build was looking close to 4-5 billion.  My Invul/Fire tank build was around 2-3 billion.

The truly evil stuff is when you just barely under sell the person above you.  And this creates a trend of everyone underselling the last person only to lower to the whole price significantly.  Then you stock up and hold on to them and wait for the price to go back up.

[Rejolt]

I usually took the alpha slot that covered the thing I slotted the least (range, end redux, end drain, etc). I was usually good without it. I never planned ITF or STF soloers though.

[Brigadine]

No I wouldnt say you just suck. I would say you make one of the most common mistakes I see people who make builds make. And its a very easy one to make. That the toggles are costinh you more end than your attacks.

Ive seen this more times than I can count. Toggles do cost end and some of them have a pretty hefty cost. But in general they dont cost more than attacks especially if you dont slot attacks for end reduction.

Quick example.. Lets take that PB

Unslotted those toggles collectively cost you .26 end per second. So all three cost you .78 end per second..

Now lets look at attacks. Lets figure a standard attack chain of the first three blast powers in human form.

Gleaming Bolt-3.12 end per cast
Glinting Eye-5.12 end per cast
Gleaming Blast-8.53 end per cast

Total cast time abot 4.34 seconds.. Now lets total that...

Attacks in that span of time cost you 16.77 end

The Toggles cost you 3.38 end....

Now keep in mind that these are unslotted values with recharges or hasten..

So when you start building you add hasten.. so you can attack more often.. which costs you MORE end because your attacking more often..

But we tend to blame the toggles.. why.. because they are ON.. we see that little swirling thing going around sucking away end.. we dont SEE end cost from attacks.. so we really dont think about it in all honesty..

I learned a long time ago.. attacks cost WAY more end than toggles..

I see your logic and it makes sense. Here's to hoping the game comes back so I can try. :)

[srmalloy]

That was actually intentional.  It takes some thought to realize why its designed that way.

The problem was, as I saw it, was that the Defender inherent didn't give you any assistance in fixing your screwup. Had it been, say, reducing your animation time as your team took damage, you'd have the ability to exhaust yourself (or burn a pile of CaBs) to quickly put out the controls that you should have had up, allowing your team to recover. By not reducing the recharge along with this, you wouldn't be getting the ability to multi-stack anything you hadn't already slotted for extra recharge; you'd just be able to quickly restore what you'd failed to put up (or let drop). Reducing the End cost would often run you out of time as you try to put things back in place, leaving you to faceplant at at near full Endurance.

[srmalloy]

I had one uber tank, myself.  It was great doing the respec trial and not needing one of those stupid bubbles.

That reminds me of doing the respec trial with an all-troller team; we had two fire/rad, a third fire/something, and I forget what the fourth troller was. This was back when you had to periodically resummon your imps, and we were steamrollering the mobs to the point where we all had time to go out and summon our imps into the bubbler so that each of them had their own little anti-rad bubble.

[HEATSTROKE]

And its not that I am unaware that an additional slot at tier 4 would be miniscule in comparison to what the normal Alpha slot did. Its that I didn't like what the Alpha slot did to toons as a whole. To me, when I pugged and exemped down to find most people were crippled because they relied on their Alpha slot to cover dmg or acc or end issues, that was lazy planning...by both the player and the devs. They gave us too much, if you will, with that one slot. I felt a more gradual increase to your powers would have been more enjoyable.

That to me is more of an issue with people who dont know how to build a character rather than any fault of the developers. I never built toons around the Alpha slot.

Levels 1-50 was enough gradual increase to my powers...

[Auroxis]

Back then, I Didn't like how only VIP's (subscribers) had access to Incarnate content and that it wasn't a Premium option/Veteran reward.

I understand now that since the incarnate trials themselves were also VIP only, and that incarnates weren't required for non-incarnate content, that it was more like an expansion which divided the community a bit rather than a "pay for power" kind of thing.

And since Incarnate content was still in development, giving it a set price would be difficult.

[brothermutant]

True dat, but if it stayed on longer, I could see them going to dlc content for each incarnate. Similar to what DCUO does for each sets of trials/missions/armors to get people to buy stuff. Hell, I would, after a fashion, given away the ability to alpha slot for Premium just to get them interested in the other stuff they are missing. Nothing hurts a gamer more than opening a window and seeing you have unlocked 1 of 10 things and will NEVER unluck the other 9.

[HEATSTROKE]

Back then, I Didn't like how only VIP's (subscribers) had access to Incarnate content and that it wasn't a Premium option/Veteran reward.

I understand now that since the incarnate trials themselves were also VIP only, and that incarnates weren't required for non-incarnate content, that it was more like an expansion which divided the community a bit rather than a "pay for power" kind of thing.

And since Incarnate content was still in development, giving it a set price would be difficult.

Without that, there was very little reason to actually be a subscriber.  You have to give them something to continue to pay 15 bucks a month.

[brothermutant]

Without that, there was very little reason to actually be a subscriber.  You have to give them something to continue to pay 15 bucks a month.

You mean like, closing the game down? No, wait.

[srmalloy]

That would require a substantial redesign of how enhancement slots work. The game did not keep any record of what level you got each slot at. Instead, it only remembered "Power Bolt has 4 extra slots added". When it came time to level it just added up all the slots you've placed so far and compared to the number you're supposed to have at that level in order to determine how many new ones you got to place.

This was obvious from the way that the sidekick/exemplar functionality worked -- when you were exemplared down, you lost the use of entire powers, but not the slots in them.

And the way it worked was actually beneficial to that mechanic, because it would have made slotting powers a nightmare instead of the 'drop enhancements here' setup that it was -- you would have had to consider the order that you slotted a power against when you would be exemplared down. When you were replacing DOs with SOs, slotting (L-to-R) three Dmg, 2 End, and a Rch in a power would leave you with a much different power when exemplared than if you'd slotted it (again, L-to-R) a Rch, 2 End, and 3 Dmg, just because of your having picked a different order to buy the SOs when you were upgrading. By making the slots level-agnostic -- you either have the power or you don't, and it has all the slots you've put in it -- it took slotting order out of being an unnecessary complication to the game.

[Wyrm]

You mean like, closing the game down? No, wait.

/em crickets

[srmalloy]

Playing the market was the best way to make a fortune.

Not necessarily make a fortune, but it was certainly the best way to give a new character a start without having to rely on shifting inf from another character. What I would wind up doing with a new character was hitting the AH as soon as I'd built up a couple thousand inf and bid a pittance on low-level rare salvage, then take it to a vendor to sell back, repeating until I'd built up enough of a base where I could troll the high-end SOs the same way -- initially just Mutation, because the store in Steel Canyon could be run to fairly safely at low level, expanding to the other origins. A relatively small amount of work could net a character their first million or so inf, at which point they were pretty well self-supporting.