New efforts!

[Vee]

My bet would be animation difficulties given how customizable the shields were. Even Captain America with his instantaneous absurd projectile calculations didn't much throw around the original shield.

[Sinistar]

My bet would be animation difficulties given how customizable the shields were. Even Captain America with his instantaneous absurd projectile calculations didn't much throw around the original shield.

True his old triangle shield wasn't that aerodynamic.  :)

Still I wouldn't mind once the game returns if a shield throw attack can be added in for that TRON/Captain America affect :)

[Twisted Toon]

True his old triangle shield wasn't that aerodynamic.  :)

Still I wouldn't mind once the game returns if a shield throw attack can be added in for that TRON/Captain America affect :)

When shields first came out, I toyed around with the character creator and made a Captain America costume. Never went past the costume part and actually created the character though. I'm sure someone would have been even more tempted to create a Captain America clone than they already were, if the ability to throw a shield had been available.

I'm not saying that the Devs actually had that thought in mind when they didn't add a shield throwing power to the set, but it could have been a possibility.

[Sinistar]

When shields first came out, I toyed around with the character creator and made a Captain America costume. Never went past the costume part and actually created the character though. I'm sure someone would have been even more tempted to create a Captain America clone than they already were, if the ability to throw a shield had been available.

I'm not saying that the Devs actually had that thought in mind when they didn't add a shield throwing power to the set, but it could have been a possibility.

Quite true, but I saw many a red white and blue shield user with red white blue and stars on the shields anyway.   While the costume pattern didnt match Captain America I wonder if the mods ever pulled out the generic stick and whacked a few of those characters to play it safe.

COH had the ability to easily copy some trademarked characters,  I think helmet #14...or was it helmet #10?......was basically Iron Man's classic armored helmet.  One could easily color the face gold and the rest red.

Also lost track of all the Hulk and Ghost Rider clones......

[Arcana]

My bet would be animation difficulties given how customizable the shields were. Even Captain America with his instantaneous absurd projectile calculations didn't much throw around the original shield.

It was probably partly that, and partly the complexity of doing a good shield throw.  In a sense, shield throwing is no different than any other projectile power.  But then you start thinking about it.  What happens if the shield misses?  Energy bolts shoot up into the sky and disappear.  Arrows sail off into space.  The shield still has to come back.  How do you do that?  What if there's nothing reasonable to deflect off?  Will that look weird if it just boomerangs back after hitting nothing?  And shields are much bigger than normal projectiles.  Does that cause visual problems with such large objects flying around?  What if you have eight shield characters doing that.  Would that be too visually annoying?

And what does the transition animation look like, where the character loses the shield and it turns into a projectile, and how does the character get it back?  And how long does this have to take to be visually proper?  Do players *really* want a shield throw power that takes three seconds to animate correctly?  Think about how long Eagle's Claw's animation was, and how little time that really was to animate a throw, projectile travel, return, and catch.  Oh, and another thing: CoH projectiles had a velocity, which makes sense, but it causes an animation complication.  The farther the target is, the longer the projectile will take to reach it.  It will then take longer to return.  But the character has to play a throw animation, wait, and then play the catch animation.  How does the animator know how long to wait before playing the catch animation?  It will be a different amount of time for different throws.

And why are you doing that?  There's a conceptual reason, but shield was a defense power.  It would probably be difficult to sell giving it two offensive powers, so you probably get to keep shield charge, or lose it to shield throw.  And are you willing to delay the entire set to make shield throwing mechanics work, and QA tested?

At some point, it was probably less that it was impossible, and more that it was more trouble than they could justify resolving.

[Eskreema]

This is exactly why we need Lew Nealand and his legendary boomerang  fish.

[Thunder Glove]

Hulk was so easy to do, too, since his costume is just "Huge frame, Hostile face, green skin, push all the sliders all the way up, ragged purple pants, nothing else", so I'm not surprised there were so many Hulk clones.  With a few tweaks here and there, it's even a common design for actual comics characters (for example, Blockbuster and Savage Dragon).

I had quite a number of costumes saved based on comics characters that I never used on an actual character, including big names like Batman, Superman*, and Captain "Shazam" Marvel (plus Mary and Junior), as well as obscure and downright goofy characters like the Black Terror, the Whizzer, and Captain Tootsie.  I never made an Iron Man costume, but I could whip one up easily enough (with the helmet and the "Jewel" chest accessory).

Never tried Captain America, though.  He really needed three colors for his torso, and that isn't possible with the CoH costume creator.  Might be able to fake it with a belt.  (I may fire up Icon and try it)

* Technically, I used the Superman outfit on a character I created post-shutdown-announcement, because at that point I wasn't particularly worried about being Generic'd, and nobody ever called me on it.

[Vee]

I had a Captain America that was sort of a take off from the Ultimates version with an old school dark blue leather WW2 look but a kite shaped shield. I thought it was simultaneously close enough to be recognizable as a tribute but far enough away to be safe, and as it never got the bat I assume that's what other players thought too.

[darkgob]

I had a really good Mysterio alt-costume for my Ill/Storm controller (the other costumes were a tiny woman).  It was just perfect conceptually.

https://i.imgur.com/i0VFKvFl.jpg

[Felderburg]

Good to know I'm not the only one that loved flight!

I think I have one that I won on the coffee talk by literally using superpowers on the show.

I managed to guess the number Zwillenger rolled on a d100 based entirely on the sound the marker made when he wrote it down on a sticky note.

It's nowhere near close to my size. I think it's at my mother's house ATM, since my trophy shirt wasn't a necessary thing to bring to my new apartment.

Are you saying this because it's a place I can get a shirt, or because you want it to be known you have a shirt? ....... I have money.

[Solitaire]

So is anyone else getting wind back into their sails because downix came out of the shadows or is it just me?

I was surprised to see him posting for the first time since October 2014, so it was good to see him on the forums again  ;)

[Von Krieger]

Are you saying this because it's a place I can get a shirt, or because you want it to be known you have a shirt? ....... I have money.

Both, I suppose. I'll text Mom and have her take a look and see what size the size is and if it is indeed a Freem shirt.

[brothermutant]

I made several clones. I was way into the Justice League cartoon when it came out and made one for each character. Sadly "Martian Manhunter" was genericized...I was not happy. SO I deleted them all and remade them with completely corny and obvious names. Martian Manhunter became the "Venutian Woman-Chaser". I am sure the devs heard about them but what could they do really.

[Azrael]

I had a really good Mysterio alt-costume for my Ill/Storm controller (the other costumes were a tiny woman).  It was just perfect conceptually.

https://i.imgur.com/i0VFKvFl.jpg

Kool.  A Mysterio Klone.  (One of my favourite Spidey villains...from the Ditko days...)

As for 'classic' Kirby Universe clones.  I made a female Cap' clone called, strangely enough, 'Kirby.'  All black costume (based on the costume revamp Marvel tried and aborted a while after...)  Used the mega leap from the acrobatics pool.  Had the somersault/jump kick power as well.  I think I had street fight and, naturally enough, 'Shield'.  I think I managed to get into the 20s with it.  Would have been nice to have gotten the shield charge along with the L32 street fight primary tier 9.  Having 'severe' alt-a-holic problems means you can spread your levelling efforts thinly and lose focus and impetus for alts.

I did another 'Cap' years before that one with MA and Regen (although reflexes might have been more fitting...)  Managed to get the red/white and blue look reasonably well on his outfit along with the 'wing nuts' on his helmet.

Also did a thinly disguised clone of Wolverine called, 'Jack.'  White vest with blue jeans.  Long black hair.  (Who didn't have a Wolverine clone with claws, eh?)

The clones were easy to do.  Hulk and Iron Man being obvious ones.  The design of these characters is pretty basic as they come from 'simpler' times with two colours, a general archetype shape and very simple 'emblem.'  It's not difficult to get close with generic parts from a character creator.  Any character creator. 

Arcana...

And why are you doing that?

...because it was pretty much expected that it would be a Captain America style power...

but shield was a defense power.

...that Cap uses his 'Shield Defence' power as offence/attack.

ie.  With shield as projectile or him AND shield as projectile.  Given some of the other powers they did it takes a small leap of imagination to get a 'Cap' set.

Shield was pretty much a big let down from that point of view.  Its A-N-Other armour set with a shield stuck on your arm.  My duo-partner and myself were pretty let down by that.  But hey, it looked 'cool...'   Shield Charge was at least some compensation for the 'promise' that failed to deliver said 'Cap' set. 

Fair enough.  Paragon won't do something if they can't do it well.  I'm still puzzled they couldn't have done an offensive set with it.

Shield parry.  Shield slam.  Kirby Roundhouse with shield.  Fly-leap-charge.  Jump-kick but with shield in face.  Shield Upper cut.  *(Anybody else fill in their ideas...)

Still I wouldn't mind once the game returns if a shield throw attack can be added in for that TRON/Captain America affect :)

Tron.  Exactly.  Energy 'disc' projectiles.  They work like Energy blast.  Dissipate and then another one generates on your 'shield disc generator' attacked to your glove/gauntlet.  I seem to remember Iron Man fighting 3 villains who had a them of one having an energy sapping fish net, another with a shield energy disc to defend himself and another...uhm...I forget.  But the one with the shield energy disc could absorb energy/attacks defensively and that's actually what Paragon developed..but with the 'Tron' idea you could easily make the rational of an energy projectile that can 'leave' the body and dissipate but also use it in melee range as an upper cut, mini charge, roundhouse, shield slap, double handed face press to wind the opposition...arm feint...  A hybrid blast/scrap set, DOMINATOR STYLE!  YES!  NOW WE ARE TALKING!!!

As regards the technical reasons for projectiles.  U-huh.  CoH had great animations.  Balladic.  Deliberate and always classy.  But we have 'weapon' re-draw on guns?  (It could hardly have been implemented any worse than the 'Beam' set.)  For example.  Shield single fly hits single mob on head and bounces up into the sky in straight line and reappears on arm.  Shield 'Fly' hits mob and send them scattering and does 'Exploding Blast' from energy fx.  It 'magically' appears back on arm.  'Re-draw' for gun except it's 're-draw' for Shield. While it might(!) be nice to have a shield ping-ponging around a Striga Boat mission...it might not be technically practical.  Or heaven forbid...gasp, a player has to go and 'pick up' their shield. :P  I guess that would be unseemly, I guess.  'I'm a superhero...I don't tie up my own shoe laces...'  ;)

To me.  They were 'over thinking' it.  Especially considering the decent job they did with Titan, Staff, Pistols and other sets. 

Azrael.

PS.  As for Stamina and Toggles and End Reds in Powers.

Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Of course. 

Having stamina, even two bars of it...didn't stop your bar going down.  It did mean it would recover faster.  5 points per tick recovery...and you use two 'thirsty' Claws attacks like Spin and Eviscerate?  That's going to take a chunk out of your attack chain.

Arcana makes the point that people would often slot for damage (especially in pre-ED days...) then complain they'd miss. :P  Or you could slot 3 end reds in every attack ( as I did once...hey, it was an experiment...) on my PB only to find I did 'no' damage in Founders Fall and got my Human form PB posterior handed to me by the Council Vamps on patrol.

So, yes.  Attacks cost more than toggles.  However, toggles, from my experience, made your 'end bar' 'wobble' about erratically if you have one or two thirsty toggles.  They did exist.  Like 'Focused Accuracy' or 'Quills' which I found needed 2x0s SOs minimum and probably three.  I found Tough was 'ok' with 1 but really needed '2'.  Reflexes you were probably fine with 2 SOs.  On my Defender (Dispersion Bubble, was it?)  It needed a minimum of 1 SO End Red. 

Don't get me started on Dark Armour.  What an End Hog that was.  If you liked flying health recovery by the seat of your pants?  Enjoy.  I spend a good hundred million on that Quills/D Armour build and *shudders.  I still didn't have 'any' endurance even with toggles nailed down with double end reds.  Right up there with my Dark Defender for End sucking. :P

But yes, often, end management was in the minds of the player.  End Reds in powers?  High cost ones?  Yes.  IN all, mandatory, if you want to go stamina less (pre inherent...)  Toggles.  I found it essential to stop the stamina bar oscillating in combat.  1 was 'ok.'  Two SO was often the case.  3 in eg. Focused Acc?  And even then it didn't seem enough (or in Quillls.)  But yes.  You could take a 'knee' but I often found other players didn't 'wait' between mobs and would move on while you took a knee.  And yes.  You could be proactive in combat and pace your attacks.  Even more 'logically' think about the attack chain.  ie.  Balance your attacks, two cheap 1-2 punches, followed by a heavier hitter or AoE?  *slight pause for return sticks of stamina.  Repeat.

So, yes.  You could have players not slotting end reds because they didn't see the value in them and complain about 'end.'  With a decently IO'd build I guess stamina was less of an issue, especially as Stamina became inherent.  It made the early game 'easier' and more fun because you weren't trying to take a knee while Atta was mashing you or Frostfire was handing your bacon to you.

Having tried an Ice Blaster as a 'non stamina' inherent locked down with end reds...it really makes you think more about how you slot powers in a balanced way and manage toggles in combat.  And even then, I'd have to take a breather/knee from time to time.  I think I still enjoyed it more than when I went 'stamina' for my build 2/respec.  (ie.  I didn't like the way the stamina bar would wobble down much faster on the stamina build which had less end reds in it...)

[blacksly]

I can't see them making animations for shield throw when they didn't bother figuring out a way to make throwing attacks for Battle Axe and Mace.

[Azrael]

I can't see them making animations for shield throw when they didn't bother figuring out a way to make throwing attacks for Battle Axe and Mace.

Yes...a good point.

Still, for me, same thing.  Throw projectile object.  'BLAM' into mob.   Then...it appears back in hand.  A bit of suspension of disbelief to get that extra bit of 'fun factor' in there.

I loved Stone Hammer, for example.  A bone crunching attack.  'Felt' Superheroic (I'll be amazed if ANY successor projects can deliver the same grace and 'kinetic crunch' of the CoH powers...)  Would have been nice to have tossed the caber into a council mob and see it magically appear back in my hand...

Maybe it just needed an extension to the combat engine in the way their were getting creative about adding combo and extra buff set choices to certain power sets.  I'm not technical and don't know about Lua scripting...but it shows...albeit late in the day, Paragon were trying to push the engine further and beyond its limits.

That's what I liked about the old C64.  The programmers made great efficiencies and pushed the hardware beyond the limits of the original machine's designers thought were possible.  And I still hold the C64 as an example of what innovate hardware coupled with innovative programmers/software can do.

Azrael.

PS.  Arcana.  On the subject of en/en blasters.  I remember my 1st en/en blaster with much affection.  'Golden Azrael.'  1st one I got to L50.  It was mainly blaster with one or two blap 2ndaries with many slots spent on 6 slotting Hasten and Conserve.  (Pre-Ed, naturally... :)  It was my badge hunter.  The only one I had for that.  I remember sweeping the sewers for Helions...

For some crazy reason I deleted it a few years after.  After that, 'what have I done?!' moment of realisation...I re-rolled it.  I found it a real struggle around Peregrine Island mob hunting.  But then, orange/red malta always gave me a hard time and I recall grouping a lot to get the 'original' to L50.

One thing I hadn't taken into consideration of...was that I got my Accolades on my original which would have meant several hundred extra hit points and a 'bigger' stamina bar.  I seem to recall that making a difference in fights.

When blasters are 'do or die'...it was noticeable.

PPS.  Brother Mutant.

Martian Manhunter became the "Venutian Woman-Chaser". I am sure the devs heard about them but what could they do really.

That's the spirit.  Venutian Woman Chaser.  Perfect.  Got a picture of it?  :)

One of the cool ways to get around 'clones' creatively is to make a male or female version (IF Marvel or DC or Image etc...) haven't already 'done one.'  And there's no harm in satire or fun inspiration by using word play and taking an inspirational design swipe or aping the colours with inversions to create something 'new.'  Spider Man?  Arachnid Man.  Iron Man?  Morphy Richards.  Hulk.  Rage-Hard.  Purple skin, green trousers.  (No jokes, please...)  But yes, we'd see many 'clones' in CoH which were too slavish i.e..  Lawyer bait when a little bit of humour or mere thought could have created a loving reference.  And the best ones did that. ;)

With corporations increasingly over-zealous with their IP protection...we can sometimes forget that the 'gene pool' needs to be constantly refreshed.  That's comics biggest problem.  It can be very incestuous creatively.  We 'create' by taking a bit of the old and adding our own twist to it.

Lest we forget, BatMan fans, he was merely created as a 'dark' SuperMan clone.  Bob Kane going on record as tracing over Superman and changing him to be that bit darker with bat ears and bat emblem and changing the colours.  Inspiration.  Borrow.  Change.  We don't create in a vacuum.

[Ohioknight]

  But yes, we'd see many 'clones' in CoH which were too slavish i.e..  Lawyer bait when a little bit of humour or mere thought could have created a loving reference.  And the best ones did that. ;)

The comics themselves give you your best guide on how to do a "homage".  If your Superman homage isn't closer than Kurt Busiek's Samaritan from Astro City or Alan Moore's Supreme -- you're not remotely in violation of somebody's copyright.  Sure you know who Busiek's Furst Family is supposed to be, but that orange rocky-skinned monster is clearly some kind of dinosaur-man... and he's their uncle, so it's different.

My own FF/Energy defender "Emerald Knight" wore green and black, but in a different pattern than any other force-field users out there -- and he didn't have a ring, he had a magic gem on his chest, and he had a goatee (though he wasn't evil). 
And HIS oath read

"The Darkness cannot stand the Light,
The wrong cannot endure the right
I swear that by this gem so bright
Evil will fall to EMERALD KNIGHT"

EDITED TO FIX THE TYPO!

So it was completely different

When he recharged his power gem off that rock in Azuria's office every day

[Sugoi]

So it was completely different

When he recharged his power gem off that rock in Azuria's office every day

Until she lost it.... again...

[RGladden]

I made several clones. I was way into the Justice League cartoon when it came out and made one for each character. Sadly "Martian Manhunter" was genericized...I was not happy. SO I deleted them all and remade them with completely corny and obvious names. Martian Manhunter became the "Venutian Woman-Chaser". I am sure the devs heard about them but what could they do really.

My Martian Manhunter was also genericed.  He was remade as the Martian Marauder;  willpower and dark melee, costume tweaked a bit (but only a bit).  The devs never touched him again.

[umber]

Quite true, but I saw many a red white and blue shield user with red white blue and stars on the shields anyway.   While the costume pattern didn't match Captain America I wonder if the mods ever pulled out the generic stick and whacked a few of those characters to play it safe.

One of my first CoH characters was a patriotic-themed Invuln/SS tanker named Indivisible.  despite having dissimilar powers, name and bio was nothing even close to Cap, simply having a patriotic costume in the game made me worry he'd eventually get hit with the banhammer.  Over the years I rolled variants of this character using the Cap-I, lower-l trick, Willpower/SS and SR/SS.  I really wanted to make a Shield/SS version at one point but knew a patriotic shield-user...

Conceptually and visually it would have still looked nowhere close to Cap.  The character, for being at his base a superstrong and durable comicbook brick, was defined as psionic impersonation of the physical powers.  Like how Byrne showed Glladiator way back in his Fantastic Four run, and somewhat like how Byrne showed Supes himself in the '86 relaunch.  My Indivisible shielder would have been Shield/Stone, with both sets using the crystal powerset customization to symbolize his attacks and defenses being magnified by psionic manifestations.  Still, decided to sit on that idea back in the day, might be more inclined to give it a try in a CoH Rebirth environment if that were to happen.