Ten Ton Hammer: The MMO Graveyard

[Blondeshell]

On October 30, TenTonHammer.com published The MMO Graveyard; an MMObituary listing of sorts in which they took a look at some of the top games that simply didn't stand the test of time. I didn't see anyone else mention it here yet, but TonyV posted in the comments there. The article's not very long, but they do give a shout out to City of Titans.

Check it out at Ten Ton Hammer.com.

[JaguarX]

indeed.

[beveri8469]

i definitely agree with TonyV with his comments on the article. maybe it might wake up ncsoft to listen to reason and to restore coh to its former glory.

[Turjan]

As ever, TonyV's comment there speaks from the heart of our community 8)

But as for NCSOFT listening?
Well, I made my estimate of the chances of that happening quite clear when I put this pic together during the MMOKiller campaign...

https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/NCsoft%20the%20MMOKiller/NCsoftGollumisnotlistening_zps698a4259.jpg

[FatherXmas]

+1

[JaguarX]

As ever, TonyV's comment there speaks from the heart of our community 8)

But as for NCSOFT listening?
Well, I made my estimate of the chances of that happening quite clear when I put this pic together during the MMOKiller campaign...

https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/NCsoft%20the%20MMOKiller/NCsoftGollumisnotlistening_zps698a4259.jpg

One thing is true. It is theirs. And they probably are not listening. That is not a NCSOFT only traits. Even COX players from time to time don't listen to others or stuff they don't want to hear. I don't think they are  actively not listening. I simply think they don't care or even paying attention to it. While many hope they are sitting around sole focus on COX and the ex players and we are causing them loss of sleep at night, the reality is that they probably barely remember the game COX or the name of three devs that was working on it when it got shut down let alone what ex players are saying about them or the game.

If they are truly covering their ears that means in some way they care. They cannot completely not care and worry about it at the same time. A sign of worrying whether actively plugging their ears or trying to irk or silence the players is a sign they do indeed care. Or it's true that they don't care as some think and thus not worried about it. It really cant be both.

But they might remember when at least one of the game become a major competitor in MMO industry.

[Eoraptor]

One thing is true. It is theirs. And they probably are not listening. That is not a NCSOFT only traits. Even COX players from time to time don't listen to others or stuff they don't want to hear. I don't think they are  actively not listening. I simply think they don't care or even paying attention to it. While many hope they are sitting around sole focus on COX and the ex players and we are causing them loss of sleep at night, the reality is that they probably barely remember the game COX or the name of three devs that was working on it when it got shut down let alone what ex players are saying about them or the game.

If they are truly covering their ears that means in some way they care. They cannot completely not care and worry about it at the same time. A sign of worrying whether actively plugging their ears or trying to irk or silence the players is a sign they do indeed care. Or it's true that they don't care as some think and thus not worried about it. It really cant be both.

But they might remember when at least one of the game become a major competitor in MMO industry.

Oh, I am sure they took notice of City of Titans. A lot of people in the industry seem to have lifted their heads up from their lines of WoWcrack and gone "huh? those idiots are still around and they raised HOW MUCH?"

I don't know if this is a good thing and means the trend will swing away from the profit-driven grind fests and elf clones, or if it's a bad thing which means they will at every turn attempt to undermine fan-made efforts. but I do know everyone from Korea to LA took notice of the City community and our dedication to the game and the player community.

As to NCSoft yes, I do think that they are actively, aggressively disinterested. To close down a still-profitable game in the face of a half dozen other, better, business options means that they were doing it with prejudice, which means any conversation about CoX is colored by the same sort of prejudice against the game. And that includes the conversations which go "nanananana I'm not listening nanananana have you heard about our new wild west game?"

[JaguarX]

Oh, I am sure they took notice of City of Titans. A lot of people in the industry seem to have lifted their heads up from their lines of WoWcrack and gone "huh? those idiots are still around and they raised HOW MUCH?"

I don't know if this is a good thing and means the trend will swing away from the profit-driven grind fests and elf clones, or if it's a bad thing which means they will at every turn attempt to undermine fan-made efforts. but I do know everyone from Korea to LA took notice of the City community and our dedication to the game and the player community.

As to NCSoft yes, I do think that they are actively, aggressively disinterested. To close down a still-profitable game in the face of a half dozen other, better, business options means that they were doing it with prejudice, which means any conversation about CoX is colored by the same sort of prejudice against the game. And that includes the conversations which go "nanananana I'm not listening nanananana have you heard about our new wild west game?"

Indeed.

[Turjan]

Oh, I am sure they took notice of City of Titans. A lot of people in the industry seem to have lifted their heads up from their lines of WoWcrack and gone "huh? those idiots are still around and they raised HOW MUCH?"

I don't know if this is a good thing and means the trend will swing away from the profit-driven grind fests and elf clones, or if it's a bad thing which means they will at every turn attempt to undermine fan-made efforts. but I do know everyone from Korea to LA took notice of the City community and our dedication to the game and the player community.

On this topic, I came across an interesting article concerning a Kickstarter funded documentary about the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes.

There's a quote in there that I think speaks volumes :-

"Niche is the new mainstream. These communities are online, and it doesn't cost anything to reach them. You don't have to have an outdoor advertising campaign. You don't have to spend money on TV publicity. You just need really great materials, and the audience will find you."

(full article here : http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dear-mr-watterson-how-doc-656286 )

Oh for sure there's still a place out there for mass-produced, bland clone games, but the days of the big publishers and distributors being the only way to get a title made are drawing to a close.

Yep, City of Titans will never pull in the numbers that Lineage or Aion did, but that's just the point - it was never intended to. CoT was never about numbers, it was about community. It's about providing a tailored game for a very specific target market. It is, in fact, a niche game funded by a niche audience - exactly the kind of mechanism Adam Klaff mentioned in that article.
And it's a kind of thinking that's alien to the way most big distributors are set up to handle.

How will this shift in mindset affect the future of gaming? I don't rightly know...but I suspect it's going to be one heck of a ride finding out  ;D

[JaguarX]

On this topic, I came across an interesting article concerning a Kickstarter funded documentary about the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes.

There's a quote in there that I think speaks volumes :-

(full article here : http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dear-mr-watterson-how-doc-656286 )

Oh for sure there's still a place out there for mass-produced, bland clone games, but the days of the big publishers and distributors being the only way to get a title made are drawing to a close.

Yep, City of Titans will never pull in the numbers that Lineage or Aion did, but that's just the point - it was never intended to. CoT was never about numbers, it was about community. It's about providing a tailored game for a very specific target market. It is, in fact, a niche game funded by a niche audience - exactly the kind of mechanism Adam Klaff mentioned in that article.
And it's a kind of thinking that's alien to the way most big distributors are set up to handle.

How will this shift in mindset affect the future of gaming? I don't rightly know...but I suspect it's going to be one heck of a ride finding out  ;D

Well I guess it all depends on the final product. CoT wont be the first nor last game to be indie and aim for niche market. Plenty of those types are out there and not the first nor last to use kickstarter, many up and coming. It may be part of a change in the industry aiming for niche, but unless it does something extra ordinary, then it probably wont single handedly make a large impact. But it can be piece of the puzzle showing what people already know. Don't need big market to make a game. Which is good and bad in it's own way. Some people are tired of being niche, especially super hero mmo players (some), while the clones get the millions upon millions of dollars and players while people barely know super hero mmo games exist.  And some are waiting for some super hero mmo maker to stop aiming low to be merely niche and go their full potential. Will that be CoT? Who knows. Either way, I think it will be a win for them depending on what they are aiming for and what niche are they aiming for. Are they aiming for a niche within a niche of the COX community? Are they aiming for players/gamers all around that are looking for a niche game to play? Or are they aiming for a playground for their personal taste only? I think it's most likely one of the first two but which one of those two it's not quite clear. So far, much of the proposed stuff seem really a tweaking of COX rebadged. On one hand, saying it's supposed to be a break from copycat games and clones but in a way it seems to be a clone itself.

But to change mindsets they will have to reach out further than the usual mindsets here. That is how change will happen. But aiming for the same old people (no offense) that is already on board and already know about COX, and played COX, and like COX, wont change much. The COX community is mostly behind the project already and people that know COX existed already know COX existed.  To makea change sometimes one have to step outside their comfort zone, which may be too early to tell but they haven't done that much yet, but again it may just be too early and as things form it will be more clearer on whether or not they are reaching out or merely aiming to keep things within the same community as is. Most indie games that is what they do. They aim merely for the people they already know and end up being unheard of by everyone else outside that community and end up not making a single change or even though that was their intended goal. Got to be ready not only for praise and yes to everything but sometimes the tough questions, the questions why it's being done this way, questions about the plan questions about the seriousness, the doubts,  the not so quick to be leaping for joy, the wait and sees, the not really like it at first and etc without getting defensive and thinking it's all some NCSOFT plot to undermine the effort. 

Those that make the change are tested by fire. Praise is good, but the best leaders and the world changers even small world changers usually make the big impact not with how they handle praise but how they handle adversary and those that doubt them.  They don't view it as something that is weakening them or immediately get pissed and call it shilling. They welcome it and use it to make themselves better and stronger. In the MMO world, the game maker plays a chunk of that but majority of that is done by the community. Because in the MMO world a person looks at the community sometimes more than the game itself. and if it seems the community is unwelcoming and sit on high horses as if their likes are unquestionable and take every bit of criticism as a bash, then it don't seem welcoming and does more damage than an actual shill could every do. Because it comes off as there wont be no way the game will improve and grow and reeks of insecurity and unsure of it'self and too weak on it's own merits so the people must viciously defend and quell any sort of criticism that may expose a weakness.

But all of that will come into play later but doesn't mean there cannot be preparation or practice prior to that. When one see critism say in the media article instead of bashing it, trying taking a look at it and address it in constructive manner without being dismissive, or throwing around the word troll or automatically assuming they are an NCSOFT shill or just being negative just to be negative. It might end up being nothing or might be actually an area that may be need work and may be a high priority or something that can wait. But the least people play games where they can belong and feel their opinion and words matter without being attack everytime they something unpopular or point out something that isn't working for them. Many figure if they must take that from an indie crowd then they might as well stay with the big corporations at least most major corporations don't put on a front as if they care and they know it's strictly business of they pay the month and they get month worth of play nothing more nothing less. Instead of saying "Friendly, care about the people more than corporations" but the actions are tearing everything down that is not all praise or an opinion that different from the popular inner circle opinion. Many people yearn for a community and game where their opinion count whether the inner circle and popular people agree with them or not at least they can get respect which is rare in big games. But why would they leave big games to jump into it again in small game where even smaller number people run everything and every one is merely money bags that are not supposed to have an opinion and or who's opinion does not matter?

[Shadowhawke]

No Star Wars Galaxies on that list?

[JWBullfrog]

No Star Wars Galaxies on that list?

SWG isn't exactly dead. It isn't exactly alive either.

[Blondeshell]

The first response to the article mentions that the author accidentally left SWG out, even though it's listed in the tags.

[Shadowhawke]

SWG isn't exactly dead. It isn't exactly alive either.

I played it heavy for several years. I'm aware of what the emus are doing, and am waiting patiently for the rebuilding of a galaxy.

[Cinnder]

SWG isn't exactly dead. It isn't exactly alive either.

It wants to eat us!  Quick, shoot it in the head!!

[InOnePiece]

A question I'd like to see out there in the media a lot more is "why is there a graveyard at all?"

Why don't companies, who have made hundred, thousands, perhaps much more off each individual player, feel obligated to keep the final code frozen version online indefinitely for a reasonable fee? Or, release it to the public in some other way?

It's not like 1's and 0's are in short supply.

[JaguarX]

A question I'd like to see out there in the media a lot more is "why is there a graveyard at all?"

Why don't companies, who have made hundred, thousands, perhaps much more off each individual player, feel obligated to keep the final code frozen version online indefinitely for a reasonable fee? Or, release it to the public in some other way?

It's not like 1's and 0's are in short supply.

Money.

Why give something away for free when it cost millions to make and possible could be used for other things and or sold?

For real if even half the population gave stuff they are not using away fro free there would be no homeless or hungry or unclothed people in the world. But over all people usually don't just give stuff away for free even if they are not using said product. And given that companies are ran by humans, they probably are even less inclined to do so when accounting is involved.

See even with games, major corporations are not friends of the people or many probably don't care about the people and the relationship is purely business or rather owner client or rather customer. Although some people think it's friendly means friends, which in many cases end up being a folly. Customer pay, they get service, the customer do not pay no matter what are the circumstances, they don't care how long a customer been a customer, you wont get product or in game cases a subscription.

And probably the assumptions players liked the method when they click on the agree button each time of play. (when in reality many probably don't pay attention to it until...well...until the game closes.)

See what gamers can do is stop agreeing to terms they don't like and going along with them as long their game are not affected but taking up arms as soon as their game are targeted. There are many indie games out there, many companies that do give their code for free away and many that try and keep it as long as possible and will rather lose money than lose good customers but most of them are mostly and have been mostly ignored in favor of the "take a number" corporations. And of course everyone is fine with this, until it shows up at the doorstep of the game they are playing at the time. By then it's too late. They made millions, they still own the IP the product and the game, and no reason to let it go for free because the customers of the industry have not demanded it. They demand it a small group at a time when their game get closed instead of rallying even if their game is up and well, and alive, and saying, "This is wrong. I'm not going to be part of this." They rather say "Well it aint my game. My game is doing well. Well they got closed because this reason this reason this reason this reason. If they don't like their game being closed it's up to the players to make sure it don't happen. It's how it works. They agreed to the EULA and knew the game could be closed. It's a risk they took. SUcks for them, but they shouldn't play games that can be shut down. Wait... they closed my game? MMO killer! This is horsecrap! How dare they! They shouldn't be allowed to close games!"

[thunderforce]

Where would we be without the poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect to "explain" business to us ad nauseam, eh?

[thunderforce]

A question I'd like to see out there in the media a lot more is "why is there a graveyard at all?"

More seriously, I think we may be the sacrificial victim there. Especially if CoTitans is a success, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see more games being left on tickover; after all, practically all the costs once development ends are proportional to the number of players.