Truly Free

[Tubbius]

Anyone else noticed how the NCSoft website advertising their other games has Aion and one of the Lineage games advertised as "Play truly free?"

Free this; free that.  How 'bout they just free the City?

:)

[Rust]

NCSoft can sit and spin for all the two spits I care for it now. If they returned the City, I might return but they'll never get another nickel out of me.

[houtex]

You know what''s really interesting to me still?

Go google for "City of Heroes" and include the quotes.

What do you see?  Indeed, even defunct, the game is till the "World's Most Ppopular Superpowered MMO".  Going to the website... still says it too.

Kinda makes me sad knowing the most popular one isn't running.  But it's nice to see they didn't take it down, and I would gather it's still the most popular one.

[Canine]

Kinda makes me sad knowing the most popular one isn't running.  But it's nice to see they didn't take it down, and I would gather it's still the most popular one.

Obviously they decided that all of us plebs paying our VIP subs weren't VIP enough, so now it's invite only VIP, and none of us got invites?

:)

[MaidMercury]

Anyone else noticed how the NCSoft website advertising their other games has Aion and one of the Lineage games advertised as "Play truly free?"
Free this; free that.  How 'bout they just free the City?
:)

NCsoft has nothing but loser games...They will fall one after another.....no vision.

[houtex]

Well, they have ONE not-loser game... dangit all...

[MaidMercury]

Well, they have ONE not-loser game... dangit all...

they HAD one....yezz, I agree.

[CoyoteSeven]

Let NCSoft die. Let them go bankrupt. You will have a chance to pounce when that opportunity arises to buy up all the rights and data regarding City of Heroes, probably for less than what it's really worth.

"Less" being a relative term here though. I haven't looked around, but is anyone bothering to collect up and save a whole lot of money for when this happens?

[FatherXmas]

Let NCSoft die. Let them go bankrupt. You will have a chance to pounce when that opportunity arises to buy up all the rights and data regarding City of Heroes, probably for less than what it's really worth.

"Less" being a relative term here though. I haven't looked around, but is anyone bothering to collect up and save a whole lot of money for when this happens?

Fine, just don't hold your breath.  They had $130 million in profit last year, up from the year before.  The constant idea that NCSOFT is dieing flies in the face of facts.  No idea why this idea persists.

[MindBlender]

Fine, just don't hold your breath.  They had $130 million in profit last year, up from the year before.  The constant idea that NCSOFT is dieing flies in the face of facts.  No idea why this idea persists.

They wont die due to the fact that we were the minority of the gaming population.  The MMO gamer group as a whole is always drooling for the next distraction.  The trouble is that I have seen from most that they did not have a HOME in their games like we did.  CoX made sure that I will never be one of the "shrug, next game I guess" crowd.

The Asian market seems to be ripe for the bouncing from new game to new game, but we also tend to do so in the west. MMOs aside,  how many of us have "farms" in Farmville that we never tend to now that candy crush or some other game has come out? 

[FatherXmas]

Looking at the chart at Gametrics, only 4 of the top 10 games being played in PC Gaming Cafes in Korea are MMORPGs.  The top three of them are NCSOFT's but only represent less than 1 in every 7 players and 2.5x less than the number there playing League of Legends.

On another Korean game chart at Gamenote lists the top 100 PC games being played in Korea, both weekly and monthly.  Again the top three MMORPGs are NCSOFT's.  And their ranking have been fairly steady.  At the beginning of the year ArcheAge shot to the top but like a new movie release it has dropped down a lot and is now in 4th for MMORPGs, 7th overall.  At least in Korea the popular MMOs are still just as popular and they are NCSOFT titles.

NCSOFT's Asian sales still amount to over 2/3rds of their overall total in 2012.  87% of NA/EU sales in 2012 were due to Guild Wars 2.  Just because the games they create for their home market don't do well here doesn't mean that they are dieing, just out of touch with our market.  It is their hope that GW2 and Wildstar will be more successful in Asia than their current Asian games do here.  The first Guild Wars was and as long as a game is a bit more action oriented and has PvP in one or more flavors then it seems to do well in Asia.

I know we want NCSOFT to be punished somehow for taking our game away.  Problem is that their games with much larger gamer populations, those players like those games.  They aren't leaving and they don't care squat about a game being closed that they didn't play.  Sure we can try to take a moral stand here but it's not like conflict diamonds.  Trying to get others to boycott a game, especially if it gets good reviews, because that company happen to closed some other game a while back, well good luck with that.  EA gets worst consumer company for two years in a row and they are still making money hand over fist.  Majority of gamers simply don't care.  They will play the games their friends play and publisher history will have no bearing on their discussion, just friends and reviews.

[JaguarX]

Looking at the chart at Gametrics, only 4 of the top 10 games being played in PC Gaming Cafes in Korea are MMORPGs.  The top three of them are NCSOFT's but only represent less than 1 in every 7 players and 2.5x less than the number there playing League of Legends.

On another Korean game chart at Gamenote lists the top 100 PC games being played in Korea, both weekly and monthly.  Again the top three MMORPGs are NCSOFT's.  And their ranking have been fairly steady.  At the beginning of the year ArcheAge shot to the top but like a new movie release it has dropped down a lot and is now in 4th for MMORPGs, 7th overall.  At least in Korea the popular MMOs are still just as popular and they are NCSOFT titles.

NCSOFT's Asian sales still amount to over 2/3rds of their overall total in 2012.  87% of NA/EU sales in 2012 were due to Guild Wars 2.  Just because the games they create for their home market don't do well here doesn't mean that they are dieing, just out of touch with our market.  It is their hope that GW2 and Wildstar will be more successful in Asia than their current Asian games do here.  The first Guild Wars was and as long as a game is a bit more action oriented and has PvP in one or more flavors then it seems to do well in Asia.

I know we want NCSOFT to be punished somehow for taking our game away.  Problem is that their games with much larger gamer populations, those players like those games.  They aren't leaving and they don't care squat about a game being closed that they didn't play.  Sure we can try to take a moral stand here but it's not like conflict diamonds.  Trying to get others to boycott a game, especially if it gets good reviews, because that company happen to closed some other game a while back, well good luck with that.  EA gets worst consumer company for two years in a row and they are still making money hand over fist.  Majority of gamers simply don't care.  They will play the games their friends play and publisher history will have no bearing on their discussion, just friends and reviews.

Yup.

I dont think NCSoft is going anywhere. That time have come and gone and they probably know that there're downfall isnt going to come from a game with a population that peaked at less than 200,000. And believe it or not they dont seem to be complete idiots, some parts are missing.  They probably figured that even if they kept COX alive and well, how many people honestly would even play or be attracted to their other titles. Even before COX closing there been plenty of gripes of how their other titles were too pvp oriented or grindfest. Meaning that we already were outside their target audience mostly to begin with in moving to other games of theirs. So in the end did it matter whether we took our money and went home? Probably not because they could have spent a killing on PR to ensure that COXers didnt leave pissed but still how many would have switched over anyways angry or not? Sure probably a few relatively that was the deciding factor but even 20,000 among millions is nothing. They probably gain and lose more than that on a daily basis. All we can do is decide what to do with our pockets.  maybe a very few maybe 20,000 people, that will not give ncsoft another dime which really probably wont even move the line an inch, in a pure realistic view. But it can be symbolic.

I'm not saying that by not spending on their other titles is futile, but it's futile to think by doing so, they will immediately sink. IMO (as all my threads and postings have been.)

Which is also why I think the way to "get back at them" for those who aim is to do so, is with ensurign the success of these two projects. They know we are not happy, we sent angry leters we sent objects we had petition, we had more angry letters we had memes, we had bad press, we had articles praising COX, we had it even winning number one superhero mmo and despite how small the superhero mmo title pool is, that is still an accomplishment, and yet and still it's all a drop in the bucket. Maybe one day they will change their mind but that is up to them to decide. They probably view it as all idle usual talk of an angry game community. It happens with most game closings. But lets say we can show them that there is more and with the right stuff, we can make a game, and make it to aim to be more successful than COX ever was to show, maybe end up beign merely symbolic or real stuff to get them to raise an eyebrow about it, that super hero mmo can rake in the numbers. I thinking at least 1 million each title at least that is the hope side of me speaking. But hell, even breaking even with COX would be a great feat to show that we attainted a level of success as a rag tag (no offense) of ex players, that isnt a major corporation with the best super hero game builders in the industry, that they, the major corporation manage to attain. Either way it's a win win for us. At the very least we would have built a new home even if nothing else even happens.

[houtex]

I have to say that Father's post is pretty dead on.  Except this:

...
I know we want NCSOFT to be punished somehow for taking our game away.
...

'We' does not include me.  I don't much care what happens to them.  But I do not wish them punished.  They did their business.  I don't much like it, but... it's their toy. 

If it happens they're punished for their action regarding CoH, well, they reaped what they sowed.  If it doesn't, same thing.  And in either case, the only thing I even care about in regards to NCSoft is "what happens to the CoH IP?" and that's it.  That's all of NCSoft I even think about.  Everything else about them is a big bowl of "doesn't matter" in my arena.

[Captain Electric]

I know we want NCSOFT to be punished somehow for taking our game away.  Problem is that their games with much larger gamer populations, those players like those games.  They aren't leaving and they don't care squat about a game being closed that they didn't play.  Sure we can try to take a moral stand here but it's not like conflict diamonds.  Trying to get others to boycott a game, especially if it gets good reviews, because that company happen to closed some other game a while back, well good luck with that.  EA gets worst consumer company for two years in a row and they are still making money hand over fist.  Majority of gamers simply don't care.  They will play the games their friends play and publisher history will have no bearing on their discussion, just friends and reviews.

We've disagreed about a lot, but I've got to agree with you on this. I don't like agreeing with you on this. But not facing the facts doesn't make them any less true.

I will add though, that the above doesn't mean we were ever alone. I think we owe ourselves a mountain of credit. What we did, the attention we brought to our plight, that was unprecedented. The gaming media, the industry, celebrities, other studios, they all joined hands with us in some way or another to say "SAVE CITY OF HEROES!" To say that the City was worth keeping. To say that they didn't think the City should have been shut down, dammit!

It wasn't enough, but it could have been. FatherXmas has consistently reminded us about the demographics in South Korea, where NCSoft's priorities lay. Millions of Asian gamers that relegated our NA/EU business to two or four percent of their overall profits. If this had happened to a publisher in North America, I strongly suspect our antics would have made a difference. A good-faith sale of the IP at least.

And there are other factors, too, suspicions of mine. Other publishers might have been counting on NCSoft not to set a precedent in our favor. By staying their ground, mostly silent, like a closed iron fortress, they sent us a strong message: "Big business will always win. The customer will always lose. Next time, save your breath."

And you better believe that the management at publishers like PWE (especially PWE, given their super hero title) are breathing a sigh of relief. If and when they decide to shut down Champions Online, they won't be the black sheep now. Powerhouse NCSoft has assured that anyone behind them will just be following the status quo.

I guess what I'm talking about is ramifications. NCSoft's victory was a victory for publishers everywhere. Our loss was not just our loss, but a major defeat for the industry, for game studios and customers everywhere.

I'm proud of us for trying as hard as we did. Sure, we could have done this or that differently. But that's always how it goes, isn't it? There's no sense in blaming ourselves or second-guessing. And I'll always take this event as proof of the good in people.

But I'm devastated that we've lost.

Heh. Ya'know, for some reason, I've got a sudden urge to go log into Earth and Beyond. I think I will.  ;D

[FatherXmas]

I have to say that Father's post is pretty dead on.  Except this:
'We' does not include me.  I don't much care what happens to them.  But I do not wish them punished.  They did their business.  I don't much like it, but... it's their toy. 

If it happens they're punished for their action regarding CoH, well, they reaped what they sowed.  If it doesn't, same thing.  And in either case, the only thing I even care about in regards to NCSoft is "what happens to the CoH IP?" and that's it.  That's all of NCSoft I even think about.  Everything else about them is a big bowl of "doesn't matter" in my arena.

Well is it safe to say that we are all mad at them?  And usually mad festers into hate and hate leads to wanting revenge.  Actually carrying out the revenge is an entirely different story.

@Capt E
My post was more about the futility of us over here attempting to inflict financial pain on a company over there and constantly propagating the notion that NCSOFT is on the way out and when that happens maybe we can get the code then is ignorance at the facts.  It's like saying commercial nuclear fusion is just 50 years away (hint, this was said 50 years ago as well). 

It's a waste of time (not fusion, expecting to buy CoH when NCSOFT goes under) and it's better spent, IMO, going after the bigger picture, companies gaining the ability to take away games we have bought.  Things like SimCity 5 requiring net connection for the single player game, rumors of always on DRM on the next gen consoles, killing off multiplayer support of old games (looking at you EA), etc. 

Expand it to music, TV, movies and books.  More and more often we are subscribers to "unlimited" content, buying access but not our own personal copy.  Music, movie and book selections in stores are shrinking all the time.  Often only a single production run is done so those items go out of "print" faster than ever.  Didn't get a copy of that popular movie when it came out last month, too bad it's sold out forever, or maybe until it's 10th/25th anniversary release.  That's OKAY you can watch it anytime if you are willing to pay X every month.  Crying out loud even Microsoft is "renting" Office now.  Stop paying, you can't use it.

This erosion of owning a copywrite work and use it anyway we want for as long as we want is something we need to fight for.  It's bigger than just having your favorite game shut down unexpectedly on you.  I don't want "content" to be rent only and never own.

[Captain Electric]

I think about this quite a bit. But I don't have a good answer. It's an uphill battle for us peons (customers). And the fact is, it's not even a battle I want to win at all costs--I'd be fine with a compromise. In fact I'd find nice compromises more desirable all around. The beauty of technology, of WiFi Internet around every corner, a world soaked in data, is a world I spent years looking forward to. I'd love to "own" stuff that can be yanked out of any device that happens to be handy.

Ninety percent of my comic book purchases last year were digital. I bought just a few rags and collected editions, but when I crawl into bed at night to read, it's with an Android device and comics apps. I don't use the Marvel Unlimited subscription service. I actually pay the full price of each comic book or collected edition. So who owns these digital copies that are in my Marvel and Comixology and Dark Horse accounts? Do I own each copy I download to my phone? In this day and age? I seriously doubt it.

I think the law should be written in such a way that I'm considered an owner, in some form, in some way, at least partially. But like I said above. It's an uphill battle, and we're peons.

I also own games on Steam. I haven't played most of them yet. But do I really own them? Of course not. Would I even "own" them if I had purchased physical media at a game store?

Nope.

[Triplash]

But I'm devastated that we've lost.

Nothin' but love, Captain, but snap out of it man! That is quitter talk, and you knock it the hell off.

I mean it now. Look, I even put on my serious face: >:(


We only win if we get what we want or alter the playing field for the future. And we only lose if we stop trying. Any other outcome is classed as "still trying".

If the time's come to log off, so be it. I can't blame anyone for that reaction... it's been a rough ride and we're all pretty worn out. But don't quit because you think we failed the mission. 'Cause that would be making a decision based on false information.

Come on. We're not gonna let a little thing like no visible progress stop us, are we? 8)

[Lightslinger]

Nothin' but love, Captain, but snap out of it man! That is quitter talk, and you knock it the hell off.

I mean it now. Look, I even put on my serious face: >:(


We only win if we get what we want or alter the playing field for the future. And we only lose if we stop trying. Any other outcome is classed as "still trying".

If the time's come to log off, so be it. I can't blame anyone for that reaction... it's been a rough ride and we're all pretty worn out. But don't quit because you think we failed the mission. 'Cause that would be making a decision based on false information.

Come on. We're not gonna let a little thing like no visible progress stop us, are we? 8)

The way I see our plight; the time to legitimately save CoH passed when the game shut down. NCsoft is a big, wealthy company with a proven track record of holding the IPs of their shut down properties. I'd wager they see selling a property as inviting competition when they don't have to. They don't need the money, so why sell an IP that could steal some of their current customers?

Our time of using PR or a presence on the internet to spread our message is gone. If we continue we'll be painted as "crybabies who can't move on". What was a good point, a potent message and a genuine appeal to get our game back has lingered too long.

So what am I supporting in regards to CoH:
A) The mythical private servers that are totally, definitely not being being worked on. I believe that out there somewhere is a person/people working tirelessly to get our game back and get it back on our terms. It's only a hunch and a gut feeling, but I know our community so I believe its happening. We know SEGS exists, and if he ever manages to get a server functional enough to back I'll back it too.

However, if an attempt at an i23/i24 server ever happens and I'm able to support it, you better believe I'll throw all the help (financially and otherwise) I can at it.

B) Plan Z - I know and they know its a longshot, but I do especially support TPP and look forward to them having something awesome to show off very soon.

What do these options have in common? They get our City (or something like it) back on our terms, not NCsoft's. That's how we get our game back, with our own work.

[Rust]

As much as I want to support HaV and TPP..."long shots" is almost too generous a term. Not knocking the dedication or ability of the people working on those projects...it's just the amount of effort that goes into making a MMO, even a semi-competent one, is staggering. For two untested "studios" staffed entirely by volunteers...

Neverwinter had opening day queue lines you wouldn't believe. And that's by a studio with a lot of MMO experience.

[Triplash]

Fair enough assessment, Lightslinger. I can agree with that. I guess what I meant was more like "don't give up entirely" rather than "don't give up on SaveCOH". (Sorry if I seemed to be singling you out, Captain, I wasn't; I was just quoting that particular line to make my point.) Some people are starting to sound like they've been defeated completely, but I just don't think we're there yet.

When I say "we only win if we get what we want", I'm including officially getting City back, establishing a private server, and creating successor games as "what we want". I will call either of those outcomes a win of equal value.