Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[Nebularian]

(cant remember if I said something like this or not) Some say about the OP of freeform on teams with AT I dont see it as much of a problem anymore or less than teaming with IOed purpled out toons. Some say there will be messages like "Forming team Freeform only" or the likes when in reality there was plenty of those messages like that in COX except it was "Teaming forming, must be have IO's." And even more so with the Incarnate stuff that went beyond the in game official rules. So it was already there. If that was an issue then IOs shouldnt have been in the equation and or shouldnt be in the equation with the new game. Ironically I dont ever recall seeing "forming team, freeforms only or freeforms need not apply" in CO. Not saying it doesnt happen, but I just havent seen it.

I'm the one that made the "need not apply comment" :)  I understand what you are saying.....though I think we are talking apples and oranges here.  The examples you gave (and yes, I did see that too...and thought nothing of it) were due to lvls/abilities gained in game.   Often times you would see msgs that claimed "any lvl welcome".  But just as often, you would see teams that had their difficulty set so high that it required the team members be maxed out.  (Never bothered me...but then I was not one of those who had to max out my 50s. So long as my enhancements were active, I was good...I had no desire to play GOD characters and, believe it or not, I actually enjoyed losing once in a while.  One or team wipes had me laughing and ready to try again!  if I couldn't lose...there was no sense in playing.)

The difference between teams forming according to lvl and enhancements  and teams forming excluding freeforms is the basic character itself.   Freeform would allow, as has been noted, people to create "mega" toons.  When teamed with regular toons, these "mega" toons would steal the show.  If I am on a team, I want to be useful...not just follow a "mega" toon around. If I wanted that, I would just get some one with a 50 to take me through a fire farm...I would sit there and soak up xp....while doing absolutely nothing.  (which is why, unless they were friends, I would never join a team more than 5 or 6 lvls higher than my toon....even if they said "all lvls welcome").

I guess another issue would be the complexity of play.  Another thing I loved about COH....it was just complex enough to not be boring...but not so complex that I wasn't forced to "geek out" over my toons if I didn't want to. (I know a several people...I won't say a lot of people because I saw more people like me...that were more concerned in creating a mega toon...or making sure they were maxing out their shielding or fretting because they were not doing the percentage of damage they thought they should....I even had one person show me how to bring up a stats window....ugh....)

But most players are not like that.  Most players just want to have fun...Most players only do as much as they absolutely had to in order to keep their toons current.

COH gave both extremes (and everyone in between) most of what they wanted...without sacrificing actual game play.   In games, one constant I have seen......the more complex the game...the less fun the game.

IF TPP or HaV can create a BALANCED system that allows ATs and Freeforms...without sacrificing playability and establishing hard limits that will prevent "Mega" toons.....I would say go for it.   But I don't see that happening.

[downix]

You asked very clear questions, you deserve very clear answers.

And herein, I do believe, is the major bone of contention between some of the community and Plan Z.

No, I do not believe that anyone on either team wishes to Dis COH....if they did, they wouldn't be here in the first place.

The difference is...they have moved into Dev mode....before the community is ready.   You see....I believe the community is still smarting...still hurt and angry over the closing of COH.   And we still have people that are gung ho with Project Hail Mary!...To Find some way to get our game back.  Will they succeed?  I hope so (especially after seeing what Plan Z is considering) but only time will tell.

Hell, right now if NCSoft came to us (the community) and said "We will license CoH's IP to you right now if you abandon your projects...." heads will be spinning.

I think, to a degree, the view of the people on the Plan Z projects changed when they began to actively work on it.

We see a lot of talk about how much this or that will change....because COH was outdated or, as you said, because COH was patched together over the years....yadayadayada...My suggestion....stop talking about that....at least in the public forums...I would keep most of the "how things" are going to work discussion on the MWM or HaV hidden boards. (uh...I am assuming that HaV has them....I know MwM changed several of their forum boards to hidden from the public.)

You see...talk like that raises red flags. Especially in a community that is not yet ready to start looking at a COH2 until they get the original (or reasonable facsimile thereof) back.

That is partially why we pulled a lot of the discussion off the front page, so it would not be all batted around and cause resentment. But as with all things, they do get out, and many times an incomplete picture forms.

Focus, instead, on how your games are going to be similar to COH...Tell us what you are keeping....not what you are replacing. Don't worry about getting into the Technical jargon all that much.   Sure, it sounds impressive...but for most, means absolutely nothing....they hear "we are changing this...."  and all the rest becomes just so much noise.   

You New Devs  are excited.....You have every right to be.  But the more I see you guys talk...the more I am convinced that you are focusing more and more on the technical aspects...which is a good thing....except that at the same time, you seem to be moving away from being able to view things from THIS side of the keyboard and mouse...where most of the rest of us are.

When you discuss it, sure...you can get a bit technical (at least so people will know you know what you are talking about  ;D)  But then switch over and tell us what we are going to be seeing from THIS side. (hmmmm....you may need to get a non-techie type person to act as PR)

We want to be assured that, whatever it is you are doing to the backend, we can SEE COH in the front end.  Frankly, I personally get a little miffed when I hear/see COH2 tossed around too much.

Let's lay it out.  I lost COH.  The chances of getting it back are Slim.  So that means most of my hopes lie on TPP and HaV.  As a simple player, I could care less about what lies underneath what I see on my screen.  I don't want to hear/see how this engine compares to that one or to the one COH had.  I want the bottom line.  How much is what I am going to see on the screen going to resemble what I saw on the screen when I started COH?

How much is game play....as seen from THIS SIDE of the keyboard, going to resemble COH game play?

Since you guys are dead set against a clone (and no, I am still not convinced  ;D  But you are decided so I will drop it and just be convinced you are wrong LOL) tell me what changes I can expect from THIS side of the Keyboard. Are we going to have to put up with crappy character creators like CO and DCUO?

A rule when we began was "why reinvent the wheel?" We evaluated everything to see the cleanest way to implement it.

Let me give you an example, you log in, and click "create character." You are presented with "Pick your Role" which gives 6 options, mirroring the "Playstyle" selection from CoH. Once that is selected, you are presented the Archetypes for that role, on a screen we call "Specialization". Our goal is to have at least 3 available for each role by launch. Once that is selected, you get to pick your primary, then secondary powerset. Then you build your costume, name yourself, fill out a biography, then login and begin playing.

In the talks about the supposed freeform thing, I have gotten more useful information from TPP than ever before....because you guys talked a bit about what I would see from this side. And some one (I cannot recall who) said it best when they compared it to what I saw in COH...I would still have my ATs, etc.

I guess the point is....A lot of use want a bit of details of how it is going to be similar to COH...not different (or improved) from COH.   Will the artwork be of the same quality? (I don't know about a lot of you...but so far, COH still had the best character graphics of either of the other games....I mean...the DCUO creator is somewhat okay....but you really can't get as in depth with it as you could with COH....(and quite frankly, I am wondering why they go to the effort.....hell, your costume has changed from what you selected by the time you get out of Brainiac's ship.....if you put on the armor you find to keep yourself alive).

Our goal is to keep the quality up. We'd rather have the graphical capability of an upgraded CoH, as if someone brought it to DCUO's quality while retaining CoH's customization and depth.

Okay, I will quit blathering and sum it up.  I think I am seeing part of the difficulty here.  You New Devs are seeing things from one side...a lot of the rest of simply players are seeing them from the other side....So I get the feeling that, when we talk, we really aren't talking about the same things.

I can understand the need to upgrade things for a new game rather than purposely dating it by using outdated technology. That's cool   but not something that really interests me (unless that new technology means I have to plop down money to buy new equipment to play it)  All of that stuff goes on under the surface.  I want to know what is going on ON the surface.

I want to know if the artwork will be acceptable.  I want to know how my ATs will work, I want to know how level progression will work.  Are you going to have something similar to the Epic Powers when toons reach a certain level?   Am I going to be able to build a base like in COH?   Am I going to be able to free play (ie go street hunting or choose which contacts I work with) or will I be locked into mishes?

The familiar AT roles are being kept. We just found ways to add more options is all. We already have Epic's planned out, it's the "Patron Powers" which are more problematic. Bases are already being worked on, although we are developing the base tool to also be used for mission maps, meaning that it will not be orphaned, as it will be a central tool for the developers as well. The dev version will have more options available by default, but the actual tool system will be the same. As for being able to free play, on the Liberty server, I was a founding member of a supergroup "The Street Sweepers." You can guess what we did. I *hate* games where you are shoe-horned into contacts. None of us like those. We loved being able to pick your contacts, and that is exactly what we are planning. We want your hero journey to be yours, without railroading you into the same missions, over and over again. If you want to spend your 1-50 street sweeping, go for it! You want to do it running every mission you can against the Aether Pirates, enjoy!  It's your hero, it's your story, we're just trying to give you the tools to tell it.

(and some may want to know how PvP will work from this side of the Keyboard as well...not me....but others might...so will you have Arenas?)  Will there be an AE equivalent?   How about a trading house?  Are we going to have enhancements like COH?  And is my interface going to look as much like COH as possible (quite frankly, that was one of the best user interfaces I have seen.)  Will the chat features be as close to COH as possible? (again, one of the best I have seen).

PvP is still being developed, but some decisions have been done on it. We will have Arenas, and even thought to add indirect PvP as well. Playtesting will tell us what we're doing right/wrong with PvP, because that is one of the hardest things to get right. We are planning on an AE equivalent, and like the base-builder I mentioned before, it would be a version of the same tools the devs will use. Why create two systems which, basically, do the same job? I do not know how the auction house is going, honestly. I know there has been discussion, but it's not yet hit my radar on the coding-end. And yes, you will be able to improve your powers through direct slotting of what we call "Boosts."

Our UI team has been working hard to strike the right balance for the look and feel. What I have seen is very reminiscent of CoH, but that is one of those things which is very individual. We will be seeking feedback on it shortly.

Quite frankly, THAT is what is going to tell the story.  When I log in...am I going to see something that says "Home"?

I hope to, that's what I signed on for. And I know the H&V team feels the same way. We cannot be a complete duplicate, but we're doing our best to be the "New Challenger" or "New Mustang," capturing the flair and feeling while offering a modern system underneath.

[Nebularian]

First of all...thanks for the answers...very informative.  BUT....

Our goal is to keep the quality up. We'd rather have the graphical capability of an upgraded CoH, as if someone brought it to DCUO's quality while retaining CoH's customization and depth.

Please....Please....do not lower yourselves or COH to either CO or DCUO quality.  yeah....DCUO's world looks nice...their toons look okay...from a distance.  But do you realize that Character customization in either CO or DCUO are extremely limited when compared to "outdated" COH?  Unless there is a trick I have not discovered....all the faces look the same in DCUO. One toon looks just like another.   And PLEASE do not do what they do with costumes.  I mean seriously.   Why go through all the hassle of picking out and customizing (what little you can) if it doesn't mean crap? (in other words...please do not add their stupid stat bonus armor pieces that totally change your toon's looks)

No....I would not look at either CO or DCUO as an example of quality and characterization.....when COH already had them beat when it came to toons.  The world...maybe...DCUO does have a good thing there, I will admit.  But not the toons. 

[JaguarX]

IF TPP or HaV can create a BALANCED system that allows ATs and Freeforms...without sacrificing playability and establishing hard limits that will prevent "Mega" toons.....I would say go for it.   But I don't see that happening.

Yeah, if it can happen with balance, hell yeah go for it. But if not, completely understandable to leave it out as much as I love it (freeform).

But in reality apples and oranges can be compared. Some people like apples (ATs) some people like oranges (freeforms). For some oranges are too acidic too much of hassle to peel, and burns when get into the eyes. While finding apples more pleasent, lighter taste, more variety of flavors, and easy to eat. While some prefer the juiciness of the oranges, the versitility of the juice, citrus like flavor, and easier transportation without worry about brusing easily. While apples bruise easily, can be mushy for red apples and too tart for green varieties, and the core is a pain in the butt. Apples oranges but both are fruits high in vitamin C and healthy food that is commonly used ot made juice out. :p.

[downix]

First of all...thanks for the answers...very informative.  BUT....
Please....Please....do not lower yourselves or COH to either CO or DCUO quality.  yeah....DCUO's world looks nice...their toons look okay...from a distance.  But do you realize that Character customization in either CO or DCUO are extremely limited when compared to "outdated" COH?  Unless there is a trick I have not discovered....all the faces look the same in DCUO. One toon looks just like another.   And PLEASE do not do what they do with costumes.  I mean seriously.   Why go through all the hassle of picking out and customizing (what little you can) if it doesn't mean crap? (in other words...please do not add their stupid stat bonus armor pieces that totally change your toon's looks)

No....I would not look at either CO or DCUO as an example of quality and characterization.....when COH already had them beat when it came to toons.  The world...maybe...DCUO does have a good thing there, I will admit.  But not the toons.

I only meant *rendering* quality. DCUO has much more advanced shaders and model-handling, allowing for finer-detail. I would rather gouge out my eyes than to lower the customization to DCUO's level.

And under no circumstances are we running "gear" where your enhancements change your characters looks.

[HEATSTROKE]

Get over to the TPP forum. Its a very good thing to see how something is evolving. Lend your ideas and your concerns. Post on their boards. Personally after looking through their Google Doc I see something that is well thought out and headed in the right direction.

[Nebularian]

But in reality apples and oranges can be compared. Some people like apples (ATs) some people like oranges (freeforms). For some oranges are too acidic too much of hassle to peel, and burns when get into the eyes. While finding apples more pleasent, lighter taste, more variety of flavors, and easy to eat. While some prefer the juiciness of the oranges, the versitility of the juice, citrus like flavor, and easier transportation without worry about brusing easily. While apples bruise easily, can be mushy for red apples and too tart for green varieties, and the core is a pain in the butt. Apples oranges but both are fruits high in vitamin C and healthy food that is commonly used ot made juice out. :p.

WOW.  I thought I was the only one that argued for the sake of arguing!  LOL    ;D
(bows to the master)

[Nebularian]

I *hate* games where you are shoe-horned into contacts. None of us like those. We loved being able to pick your contacts, and that is exactly what we are planning. We want your hero journey to be yours, without railroading you into the same missions, over and over again. If you want to spend your 1-50 street sweeping, go for it! You want to do it running every mission you can against the Aether Pirates, enjoy!  It's your hero, it's your story, we're just trying to give you the tools to tell it.

Again, thank you for the answers.  This has given me new hope for BOTH projects.

But (insert stern, unyielding look here), if you guys do not have the 5th Column/Council or a very, very, very close equivalent (meaning just shy of a complete rip-off LOL) I am not going to be happy with you LOL.

Seriously, thanks for the answers...I will stop bugging you guys now......until the next issue arises (looks at watch...waiting)

[Rotten Luck]

Yes must have evil space time traveling 5th Column!  Or at least a reasonable facsimile there of!

Thought of another character that can be considered a Freeform. 

Rogue.   Thought at first she only had the power to absorb powers/energy from others.  She later During the Maximum Security miniseries, Rogue absorbed an injured Cadre K girl named Z'Cann. The girl held on longer than necessary, using her mind control to boost the process and because of this (perhaps because she had absorbed a fluid Skrull physiology) Rogue mutated further, gaining the ability to 'recall' the powers of anyone she had ever absorbed before, though she could not control when or which of these powers surfaced. For a short time Rogue also had a Skrull appearance, scanned as though she had Skrull DNA, and had their shapeshifting powers, but these soon faded and she returned to her normal appearance.
Through meditation, Rogue learned how to suppress the random manifestations of most of these abilities, but found herself with Wolverine's claws and healing factor, and Cyclops' optic blasts for a time (she had to wear ruby quartz glasses), while also still retaining her mutant and Ms. Marvel powers.
Later, Sage used her own mutant abilities to 'jump-start' Rogue's power, giving her the control to manifest any ability she had ever absorbed, whenever she wished to. It is generally accepted that after regaining her abilities after X-Treme X-Men, she has lost this ability.
Though Z'Cann was a telepath, Rogue never displayed this power (though she did manifest telepathy, it was with the Phoenix energy form, so it was most likely an echo of Jean Grey's powers).

Thought where the character is now in terms of Powers I don't know, but she clearly showed some Free Form abilities during that miniseries.

[downix]

Again, thank you for the answers.  This has given me new hope for BOTH projects.

But (insert stern, unyielding look here), if you guys do not have the 5th Column/Council or a very, very, very close equivalent (meaning just shy of a complete rip-off LOL) I am not going to be happy with you LOL.

Seriously, thanks for the answers...I will stop bugging you guys now......until the next issue arises (looks at watch...waiting)

I think you'll like what we have coming there.

Striga was a second home for my main. Nothing like beating up on COBRA rip-offs to blow off steam.

[damienray]

Not sure where this would be best posted - but my personal must haves for my next game - Power Trays !  Moveable power trays ! Click-able enemies, and lots of power clicking.  Re-arranging powers on trays.  Why ?  CoH was my first mmorph, and it's what made me stay all 8 years.  Since CoH closed, the closest thing I've found to satisfy those must haves is SWTOR and Tera.  Most will laugh, or think I'm nuts, but it's a deal maker for this one customer.  Hadn't seen anyone else mention it (altho my search-fu may be off). 

Just in case I've missed one... Are there any other games that use a similar power/power tray setup ?  Both SWTOR and Tera would have me really hooked if I could just change my appearance on a whim... but sadly... no free-form costumes like CoH.

(click, click, click)

[Nebularian]

I think you'll like what we have coming there.

Striga was a second home for my main. Nothing like beating up on COBRA rip-offs to blow off steam.

One of my toons, Dark Carolyne, was centered on the 5th Column/Council (ie her biography, very reason for existing, stemmed from her hatred of them..obviously she was a Vig.) and I'll probably be putting her in my fan-fiction!

[Golden Girl]

But (insert stern, unyielding look here), if you guys do not have the 5th Column/Council or a very, very, very close equivalent (meaning just shy of a complete rip-off LOL) I am not going to be happy with you LOL.

The way Nazis are portrayed in comics and pop culture in general makes it quite easy to come very close without legal problems.

[Golden Girl]

Not sure where this would be best posted - but my personal must haves for my next game - Power Trays !  Moveable power trays ! Click-able enemies, and lots of power clicking.  Re-arranging powers on trays.  Why ?  CoH was my first mmorph, and it's what made me stay all 8 years.  Since CoH closed, the closest thing I've found to satisfy those must haves is SWTOR and Tera.  Most will laugh, or think I'm nuts, but it's a deal maker for this one customer.  Hadn't seen anyone else mention it (altho my search-fu may be off). 

Just in case I've missed one... Are there any other games that use a similar power/power tray setup ?  Both SWTOR and Tera would have me really hooked if I could just change my appearance on a whim... but sadly... no free-form costumes like CoH.

(click, click, click)

We already have the basic coding work done for 4 power trays in HaV.

[Blue Pulsar]

Thought of another character that can be considered a Freeform. 

Rogue.   

That's easy. She's melee.

If I were to try to fit Rogue into a CoX build, I'd say she would be a DM/Inv scrapper. In her current (and most common) form, she retains the abilities of Ms. Marvel. Super Strength, a decent amount of invulnerability, and flight while still having her own parasitic powers. Like Dark Melee, contact with her skin can damage from more than just the impact of a punch. It can drain too. She can drain "HP" from an opponent to heal herself, make her opponent weaker, and also add to her strength. The fact that she temporarily gains other powers is just that. Temp powers. ;) As I have said before, it's not hard for scrappers, tanks, and brutes to get their hands on a few ranged attacks. Temp powers, epic pools, or incarnate powers, you can get them. But, because of her Ms. Marvel and parasitic powers, she is obviously an up close and hands-on kinda gal.

[TargetOne]

Superman is my specialty. Unfortunately, he is more powerful than an incarnate that has honed all of his skills to beyond perfection. Not to mention he is closer to a brute (with /Regen, /Invuln, and /SR (yes, all three, and maxed out))

don't forget super-speed :D

[TargetOne]

And PLEASE do not do what they do with costumes.  I mean seriously.   Why go through all the hassle of picking out and customizing (what little you can) if it doesn't mean crap? (in other words...please do not add their stupid stat bonus armor pieces that totally change your toon's looks)

I thought in DCUO you could "wear" an armor piece and have it NOT be visible, so you got the stats bonus but didn't change your look?

I'd have to check the next time I fire up the game, but I thought that I was doing exactly that with the stuff I was picking up from drops.

[Rotten Luck]

You have to LOCK your look into place.  Once look is locked it doesn't change.

[Nebularian]

You have to LOCK your look into place.  Once look is locked it doesn't change.

And how, pray tell, is that done?  LOL

[wei yau]

And how, pray tell, is that done?  LOL

By clicking the Lock icon in the style window.  It is the one that looks like an open lock.