Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[blue storm]

I, for one, also fully like the archetype system that was built into CoH. I can't really see how a freeform system would fit my gameplay style.  It it were just me, I would keep the same archetype system than CoH, and maybe add a freeform system on top of it, but I'm afraid it would only produce "jacks of all trades and masters of none " ...

[downix]

I, for one, also fully like the archetype system that was built into CoH. I can't really see how a freeform system would fit my gameplay style.  It it were just me, I would keep the same archetype system than CoH, and maybe add a freeform system on top of it, but I'm afraid it would only produce "jacks of all trades and masters of none " ...

CoH had a freeform system on top of it, Kheldians.

You described them well.

[Golden Girl]

Pity you had to choose the Hero engine.-

Don't let Bioware's incompetence put you off ;)

[no hero]

Seemed appropriate to cross-post here.

Ok. So I jumped in with both feet. Call me home sick and gullible.
Now that that is out of the way, I have no intention to call Aaron Victoria a false prophet and drag him through the streets of Paragon.
Obviously funding will come as results are produced, but the fact of the matter is, he has been here a week or so.
What details are needed in that kind of time?
His donate button isn't even active for the next few weeks. This isn't as fast of a grab and dash as it is being made out to be.

Should we be defensive?  Abso-freaking-lutely. This is as near and dear as it gets.

I just want my game back. I want it now, and with as few differences as possible.
I don't want "CoH2", though I'll be there. I don't want to wait 5 to 10 years, though I will.
I want what he has offered, "Damn-close-to-CoH,-but-you-can't-sue-me,-because-he's-not-Statesman,-but-Senator-Patriot-Guy" ASAP.

Let's say nothing comes of his attempt, hold onto your cash and no worries.
But let's just say, before the ball drops on New Year's Eve, you can be in your home town.
Is it worth the risk of hearing him out? Darn skippy, it is.
If I am offered the chance, my no hero alts will Super Jump before this year is over.
I want to rest my eyes while my toon goes AFK and misses the iTrial que.

Until now, I have been leery of the Plan Zs, because of the split.
Well, not so much the "split" as the venomous "spit" between the groups in the beginning.
That being said, I am seeing the tension between TPP and HaV loosening and have since joined both forums.

I am homesick. I am gullible. If Valiance can give me hope, I'll take it.
As I have asked of him, I will as of you, be kind.
I have earned my 1,386 Badges, and do not wish to be berated for believing in humankind's innate goodness.

[Nightmarer]

I totally agree with no hero and I wish I had been able to explain my view as well as he/she did. At the end of the day, all we want is CoH back (or a valid substitute) so, I don't really care which project does what, all I care is for the project that in the end will be able to deliver a game I enjoy. Which project will be best? providing all of them finally deliver a finished product, I'd say the one that takes no cheap shortcuts while not losing perspective.

Drifting too far from the CoH concept is tricky, first because the final product is under serious risk of being "just another superhero MMO" plus also, if cheap shortcuts not avoided, it can be very different to CoH but awfully close to any average fantasy MMO out there.

Making it too close to CoH is also tricky, I can understand the devs would like to create something more personal and not just clone something, however, I'd ask the people involved in all different projects to please remember that we're part of this community because we love CoH, and what we want is CoH back granted there were things that could be improved in CoH and it's a great opportunity for doing so, all I'm saying is to be aware on how far such improvements drift away from the original idea.

[pewlagon]

I have tried freeform games and wind up leaving because of the sheer impersonal feel it saturates. SWG and SW both did not cut it for me. Sadly, I won't be paying money into a freeform system unless it is pretty much what was in Final Fantasy X. There any character could branch off into any tree, given time. But the main difference wound up being a set of core abilities factored into each character spiderwebbing outward to connect with the others. In a Super universe you need to be able to say, this character is different from this one and here's how. Not, "Oh, you're a telepath? Give me time and I will be one too." To me that's not how a superverse game should be.

Now, if we're talking "Here's the fire set, and here's the Melee, Blast, Control, Heal trees associated with it." Cool, as long as the fire animations are different from mental powers, etc. Cookie-cutting animations would also be a big turnoff.

I've made my statements about this elsewhere. But, in a nutshell, I much prefer the development engine the Phoenix Project chose. It looks very clean and Voodoo has shown how wonderful it can look with the demo vids. Gorgon looks like CoH style animations. Is there anything wrong with it, no. However, I would like to think the "next" game would want to have improvements made upon what came before graphically. Now, I may be wrong, but I would like to see some high end demonstrations of Gorgon to see if it compare to the other.

Also, some of the things I've seen with Gorgon seems to showcase cellshading. *gag* Please, no. Look to DCUO or CoH for how hero games should look. Not Borderlands or Champions. I know, I know "you can turn the cell shading off" but that doesn't change the fact that some of the pieces in CO look overly big and clunky. I just don't want that in a successor to CoH.

[Rotten Luck]

At this stage any "System" is up for change.  Last I heard the TPP was less total freeform and more advance powers customization. 

[no hero]

I totally agree with no hero and I wish I had been able to explain my view as well as he/she did.

:) Thank you  :)
(...and he, unless I need a bio, then my wife takes the reins.)

[downix]

I've made my statements about this elsewhere. But, in a nutshell, I much prefer the development engine the Phoenix Project chose. It looks very clean and Voodoo has shown how wonderful it can look with the demo vids. Gorgon looks like CoH style animations. Is there anything wrong with it, no. However, I would like to think the "next" game would want to have improvements made upon what came before graphically. Now, I may be wrong, but I would like to see some high end demonstrations of Gorgon to see if it compare to the other.

Keep in mind that the videos showing what the engine can do will not reflect our own game due to the demands of an MMORPG. If you check out other MMO's running the same engine (Aion, Arche Age, Cabal 2) you will see that they have less detail than the FPS games, such as Crysis 2 and Far Cry 3. Part of that is the artistic style, but part is also the demands of the different genre of games.

A good example of CryENGINE based MMO game footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UzTVQh50Ys

[downix]

At this stage any "System" is up for change.  Last I heard the TPP was less total freeform and more advance powers customization.

That is the target, yes.

[pewlagon]

Yes, CryEngine still looks amazing, no matter what I've seen it put to develop. The same cannot be said of the proposed Gorgon engine. Again, my statement was more for concern of moving forward with an updated graphics quality. Everything I have seen with Gorgon does not give me confidence in this area. I could be wrong, I just want to see something high end as far as representation of the product. Currently, the Phoenix Project has some amazing potential as it is.

[Nebularian]

A few things here.

1. I am willing to give this new addition the benefit of the doubt, just as I do with TPP and HaV.  I will reserve full judgement until I see some concrete results (beyond planning and programming) or a lack thereof after some time has passed.

2. I have no interest in a freeform game and will not waste my time or money on it.

3. If there is too much difference between the new game and the Old COH (and that difference is judged by me) then I might as well continue trying to get into DCU Online.

4. I am deeply concerned with the engines both TPP and HaV have chosen.  I don't think I like either of them.  But, again, I will reserve final judgement until I see what they do with them.

5. People complain how OLD and out dated COH was....but I  look at CO and DCUO, and I still can't help but think that the art was better, the interface was better, the character movement was better, and there is absolutely no doubt that the Character Creator was (and is if you have ICON  ;D) better.  The more I hear any of the teams talking about "improving" or "updating" the more worried I get.

6. I am also worried because I thought the intention of the Plan Z was to recreate the COH experience....with Updates as absolutely needed to avoid getting sued yet keeping as much as possible of the original...and THEN progressing to something like COH2. Yet the vibes I am starting to get say that the intent now is to go straight to the COH2 and leave the original in the past. This does not make me happy.

To put it plainly, I would like to see one of the projects come up with something like COH2...That would be wonderful....But only AFTER they have published something as close as possible to the original COH.  Otherwise, they are simply creating just another Superhero MMO.

[JaguarX]

in a way I think recreating the original would be difficult anyways without the lore, and various other things that may or may not fall into copyright/trademark/other laws catergories. Not to mention the change to improve many things that was put up with in the original but been wanting to improve or change if given the opportunity which is now. More than likely, as stated and from what I gather in the term spiritual succesor, it wont be a copy but some sort of continuation, like passing of the torch from Freedom Phalynx to a new main super group with Posi, Manti, S.Psyche being retired or somethign of the likes without them actually being in the game. As a side project, sure the 2004 graphics would work but asa competitive new game, I dont think the old 2004 graphics will fly in the world of MMO today for a brand new game unless the goal is just to be a side project with only the hard core players of COH being attracted to it, and depending on the direction looks like the potential player pool will be even smaller than the amount of people here with the things some will accept in order to play and what people view spiritual succesor as. I have a feeling unless it's a direct copy of COH, some people will walk away. If it's is a direct copy, still some people will walk away. Just as some people here would glady play COH in it's i6 form while others, especially those that came later prefer the i23 version. But in the end, they are creating another Superhero MMO unless they somehow get ahold of that IP or use the IP anyways and risk the stuff that comes with that decision.

[Nebularian]

in a way I think recreating the original would be difficult anyways without the lore, and various other things that may or may not fall into copyright/trademark/other laws catergories. Not to mention the change to improve many things that was put up with in the original but been wanting to improve or change if given the opportunity which is now. More than likely, as stated and from what I gather in the term spiritual succesor, it wont be a copy but some sort of continuation, like passing of the torch from Freedom Phalynx to a new main super group with Posi, Manti, S.Psyche being retired or somethign of the likes without them actually being in the game. As a side project, sure the 2004 graphics would work but asa competitive new game, I dont think the old 2004 graphics will fly in the world of MMO today for a brand new game unless the goal is just to be a side project with only the hard core players of COH being attracted to it, and depending on the direction looks like the potential player pool will be even smaller than the amount of people here with the things some will accept in order to play and what people view spiritual succesor as. I have a feeling unless it's a direct copy of COH, some people will walk away. If it's is a direct copy, still some people will walk away. Just as some people here would glady play COH in it's i6 form while others, especially those that came later prefer the i23 version. But in the end, they are creating another Superhero MMO unless they somehow get ahold of that IP or use the IP anyways and risk the stuff that comes with that decision.

I understand what you are saying. And I don't think anyone wants to TPP or VaH to get sued.  But, I have heard / seen a lot of downplay of a "clone".  And I think that is EXACTLY what most are looking for to START with.   Seriously....even if the Devs had been allowed to create a COH2, that does not mean that suddenly no one would want to play the original!

My opinion is that starting with a "clone" and THEN developing a "clone"2 would be the way to go.  This would give people a REASON to see the new version as something other than "just another Superhero MMO".   As it stand now....with out that, TTP and VaH are going to have to come up with something pretty spectacular to give people a REASON to choose their game over CO or DCUO.  Just saying that "we are the spiritual successors to COH" will not be enough because they will not have COH or COH-clone to prove their point.

Okay, so it would not take something really spectacular to beat out CO....but I have to say that DCUO, despite its drawbacks and the fact that it is not COH, is pretty impressive.

I do respect both TPP and VaH, but I feel that they are both starting to lose sight of why people began to support them in the first place.  It was not to create a new game...but rather to replace what we have lost. Now it seems as if they are trying to put the cart before the horse.

Hmmmm.  Here is an idea.  Why don't  TPP and VaH come together to create that clone....and THEN branch off to create their separate versions of the next step?

[Golden Girl]

I have no interest in a freeform game and will not waste my time or money on it.

You'll like the HaV powers system then ;)

[JaguarX]

I understand what you are saying. And I don't think anyone wants to TPP or VaH to get sued.  But, I have heard / seen a lot of downplay of a "clone".  And I think that is EXACTLY what most are looking for to START with.   Seriously....even if the Devs had been allowed to create a COH2, that does not mean that suddenly no one would want to play the original!

My opinion is that starting with a "clone" and THEN developing a "clone"2 would be the way to go.  This would give people a REASON to see the new version as something other than "just another Superhero MMO".   As it stand now....with out that, TTP and VaH are going to have to come up with something pretty spectacular to give people a REASON to choose their game over CO or DCUO.  Just saying that "we are the spiritual successors to COH" will not be enough because they will not have COH or COH-clone to prove their point.

Okay, so it would not take something really spectacular to beat out CO....but I have to say that DCUO, despite its drawbacks and the fact that it is not COH, is pretty impressive.

I do respect both TPP and VaH, but I feel that they are both starting to lose sight of why people began to support them in the first place.  It was not to create a new game...but rather to replace what we have lost. Now it seems as if they are trying to put the cart before the horse.

Hmmmm.  Here is an idea.  Why don't  TPP and VaH come together to create that clone....and THEN branch off to create their separate versions of the next step?

I see. Well TPP and HaV did start off as one per se at one point in time then branched.

But I understand exactly what you are saying. Now that I am playing CO, and deep into it and like it, it would take something better to convince me to leave. CO pulled me away from COX towards the end when it started to get grindy end content and incarnate and other stuff I had no interest in that made me think that I might as well play WoW. And thus it would have to be something I'm looking for for me to leave my current game and go to the new one. Granted, I would still be happier than a bed bug staying in CO as long as majority of the community is happy with the results even if it means there is nothing of my interest included in the game.

As I mentioned to long ago, there is always ups and down with something built by and for the community. (in theory and ideal) The good thing is that it's for the community and built as a game  with the community wishes in mind. The down side there is hundreds of views and answers of what the community want with each person thinking they have the brightest idea of what makes a game that will attract players. Not to mention eventually the business section will come into play with operation cost, server costs, what a customer gets with a monthly sub (rental or actual investment and ownership of said game and or company and what power does that entails), what happens if it runs into the red, advertising, mods, gm, tech support, updates, etc.

Then the specific goal. Is it merely to make a niche game where only a few gamers know about and will play. That is easy to cater to the inner circle of people. Or is it to reach a braoder audience which is more of a challenge? Even if it's is COH2, if the intentions is to entice new players, some of those new players may have or may have not ever even heard of COH and thus it may not be viewed as a sequel to them.

From the stuff I seen from both projects, and asa long time COX player, neither one look like a sequel at all. And one hand, that may be disappointing for people looking for a clone. On the other hand to me, it's refreshing. I can see a little bit of COX in each but it's original enough that it is it's own game. It's like to me closest thing I can think of off the top of the brain is that Prometheus movie and the Alien series. While there is a lot of alien stuff in there and take place in the same realm it feels like it's not even really part of the series. I have watched and very familiar with Alien lore and thus the tie ins are very familiar. Yet, I know peope who never seen a single Alien film and some that that seen and despised the Alien series like Prometheus. To the people that never seen any of the Alien films, Prometheus was another random sci-fi outer space movie.   

From what I see, it's kind of why many sequels never surpass the first film. After the first, there are thousands of ideas of what consist of a true sequel while many who never seen the first nor was interested in the first usually dont go see the sequel. But like anything, including human behavior and views, likes dislikes, normal/wierd, there is always exceptions.

[Nebularian]

I see. Well TPP and HaV did start off as one per se at one point in time then branched.

But I understand exactly what you are saying. Now that I am playing CO, and deep into it and like it, it would take something better to convince me to leave. CO pulled me away from COX towards the end when it started to get grindy end content and incarnate and other stuff I had no interest in that made me think that I might as well play WoW. And thus it would have to be something I'm looking for for me to leave my current game and go to the new one. Granted, I would still be happier than a bed bug staying in CO as long as majority of the community is happy with the results even if it means there is nothing of my interest included in the game.

As I mentioned to long ago, there is always ups and down with something built by and for the community. (in theory and ideal) The good thing is that it's for the community and built as a game  with the community wishes in mind. The down side there is hundreds of views and answers of what the community want with each person thinking they have the brightest idea of what makes a game that will attract players. Not to mention eventually the business section will come into play with operation cost, server costs, what a customer gets with a monthly sub (rental or actual investment and ownership of said game and or company and what power does that entails), what happens if it runs into the red, advertising, mods, gm, tech support, updates, etc.

Then the specific goal. Is it merely to make a niche game where only a few gamers know about and will play. That is easy to cater to the inner circle of people. Or is it to reach a braoder audience which is more of a challenge? Even if it's is COH2, if the intentions is to entice new players, some of those new players may have or may have not ever even heard of COH and thus it may not be viewed as a sequel to them.

From the stuff I seen from both projects, and asa long time COX player, neither one look like a sequel at all. And one hand, that may be disappointing for people looking for a clone. On the other hand to me, it's refreshing. I can see a little bit of COX in each but it's original enough that it is it's own game. It's like to me closest thing I can think of off the top of the brain is that Prometheus movie and the Alien series. While there is a lot of alien stuff in there and take place in the same realm it feels like it's not even really part of the series. I have watched and very familiar with Alien lore and thus the tie ins are very familiar. Yet, I know peope who never seen a single Alien film and some that that seen and despised the Alien series like Prometheus. To the people that never seen any of the Alien films, Prometheus was another random sci-fi outer space movie.   

From what I see, it's kind of why many sequels never surpass the first film. After the first, there are thousands of ideas of what consist of a true sequel while many who never seen the first nor was interested in the first usually dont go see the sequel. But like anything, including human behavior and views, likes dislikes, normal/wierd, there is always exceptions.

Yeah. Ask two people what they want...get three answers.  That is one reason I advocate the "clone" to start with. The known quantity that has a better chance of holding the community together while the new concepts are developed and tested.

The longer things drag out and the further the Plan Z's stray from the original without that concrete 'something' to hold the community together, the better chance that community is going to drift apart..despite best intentions! 
Right now, people want their game back! If they can't have that, they would be satisfied with a clone (which is what the original Plan Z led people to believe was their goal) with the possibility of a "COH2" in the future. With the clone in place, there would be time and people would be more inclined to discuss changes. Throw the commumity a bone in the form of a playable clone that will NOT be updated, THEN get to work on the new games.

[JaguarX]

Yeah. Ask two people what they want...get three answers.  That is one reason I advocate the "clone" to start with. The known quantity that has a better chance of holding the community together while the new concepts are developed and tested.

The longer things drag out and the further the Plan Z's stray from the original without that concrete 'something' to hold the community together, the better chance that community is going to drift apart..despite best intentions! 

True.

[dwturducken]

Anyone else notice that this "developer" person hasn't posted in a while?

Also, "the TPP" is kinda like "ATM machine." [/grammarnazi]

[Rotten Luck]

There hasn't been that much action on his forum either.