Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[Kaos Arcanna]

Because they like them, or because they have nothing else to play?

I have played both Champions and DC Online and enjoyed both of them a lot.

(Mostly been sticking to DC Online because I like the graphics more and I'm not getting flooded with lockboxes. :D) That being said, I fully intend to give Neverwinter a shot as it looks like my chance to play a Fantasy MMO where my Elf/Dwarf/Halfing won't look like EVERYONE ELSE'S Elf/Dwarf/Halfling ... :D

[Kaos Arcanna]

At this stage in the process I wouldn't be overly concerned if there were ten or more start up projects. We're still essentially at the vaporware stage. (And who knows? There might be major developers out there who are working on something to capture the spirit of COH right now that we haven't heard about yet.)

I could see it being an issue if we wind up with two or three games asking for community funding at the exact same time or if two or more games actually reach publication and go on sale, but right now we're not at either stage so I think the more people trying the more likely we are to actually see something CONCRETE arise from it.

Well said, and I agree.

If the new game starts out in Hercules Park and we have to fight Heckions and Bonies I think we can pretty much expect failure. :D

And truthfully, having played other games, I hope whatever new game that arises from the various Phoenix Projects-- if one does-- takes advantage of a better game engine and comes up with
superior graphics 'cause the game WAS starting to show its age.

Beyond that, we can certainly have similar themes in the new game that would rock: a long standing bond of friendship or family between the leader of the hero and villain fractions, a catastrophic event of some kind that resulted in a new influx of heroes, a major new threat or return of an old threat (or both), that requires new heroes to step up their game ...

[Nebularian]

Okay,
I've been keeping track of this discussion but haven't jumped in until now.

I had a big long post...but deleted it before pressing the Post button.   

I will just say this.  I believe it was rumored that ego had something to do with the Plan Z split (I do not know this and will not comment on it other than to say that it was one of the rumors...I purposely did not dig into this because I support both versions and like what I have read from both leads - even if I do believe that both projects are trying to hard to re-invent the wheel!)

It is my hope that Ego will not get in the way of moving forward with something that has the potential to advance the publication timetable by months, if not years.

[Nebularian]

I have played both Champions and DC Online and enjoyed both of them a lot.

(Mostly been sticking to DC Online because I like the graphics more and I'm not getting flooded with lockboxes. :D) That being said, I fully intend to give Neverwinter a shot as it looks like my chance to play a Fantasy MMO where my Elf/Dwarf/Halfing won't look like EVERYONE ELSE'S Elf/Dwarf/Halfling ... :D

I'm playing DCUO myself (I gotta figure out the chat system....and I haven't teamed yet....I keep hoping to find another COH refugee to team with LOL)...and will be checking out Neverwinter :)

[The White Rager]

I am also playing DCUO now, and honestly it's doing much better than I'd thought, though it's no replacement of course. I should really start hollering on the chatbox for other CoH players, they'll know what I"m looking for that the game can't give :D

But, let's not derail this thing, there are other threads for 'what to play now'. And the actual subject of this thread is so very encouraging.

[dwturducken]

I, for one, welcome multiple projects. It means there will be more than one potential take on the next game. However, in the end, I do think only one can survive. It may even bring about a decline in at least CO, depending on how well it is received.

The notion of a spiritual successor is a good one, but a difficult one to effectively implement, because the game was so many things to so many of us. Nothing will replace it, but, if one of the efforts, or even a couple, can come close, we will have a place to go.

The only other real wild card I see is timing. If a really good one is finished six months or a year after a really close one, the better one may not be able to draw enough attention from the folks already deeply involved in the lesser one. realistically, I know that there is no way that the three (or however many we end up with) projects are going to collude to release at the same time. Everyone is impatient, whether it's the team who wants to get their game playable and played, or the community laying siege to the gates, desperate to get in.

I welcome all the projects. The community will decide which one (or ones) will succeed. Some of us will be disappointed. None of us can lose, since we already lost on December 1st.

[Aviticus Gladius]

@The White Rager, in regards to this quote:

I get why many would want to just imitate CoH as closely as possible and get nervous at the idea of changing things, but I guarantee you that just trying to be 'as close as possible without violating IP' will flop. Because that sort of thing always does. If you try to make something without using anything of your own - if your only goal is to use the ideas and inspiration of somebody else - it's already over. Because that formula fundamentally lacks the most necessary ingredients for success.

I have to digress, as your idea of change is what almost led to the early demise of Champions Online. Prior to developing Legends of Etherell, I studied the MMO markets religiously for almost 4 years. Almost 7 months following its release, the plug was almost pulled on Champions Online do to the fact that City of Heroes was still outselling Champions Online by almost 122%; these figures are compared on based on a monthly/quarterly standing chart and in no way compared to prior earning of City of Heroes. So, essential the game released and even after 7 months it still trailed City of Heroes in monthly/quarterly earnings with a player based comparable to about 26% of the City of Heroes active player base. You could easily write it off by saying, "well it's because people wanted to remain dedicated to City of Heroes" or "people found something they were comfortable with and didn't want to deviate". Either way, you are still pointing to the fact that some element of the game was the retaining factor. Numbers don't lie, and neither does continuity. Please investigate the Call of Duty pandemic. I've played every single Call of Duty game since it's original release. However, since Modern Warfare, there has been realistically no change to any element of the game except the story elements; same engine, same visual fidelity, same sound quality, etc. Why has the franchise earned almost a quarter of a trillion dollars over the last 5 years, setting the record in "entertainment" sell including all movies, television shows, and the likes? It's obvious that it's what the game's players want, gross repetition. I simply came to this conclusion after spending time researching reviews of sequels that received lower ratings than it's predecessor. In just about every one of these reviews I found some statement relitively saying, "the reason I've rated this sequel lower than the original is that it doesn't feel like the original." Feel free to research that for yourself, but I'm sure you've experienced the same thing many times before. I look at it from this point of view: "If City of Heroes was still available now, I would be more than happy playing it just the way it was".

Aside from the personal monikers, the project will still be actively developed by its community. So I'm sure many improvement will be added and some deficiencies will be repaired.

[Triplash]

I look at it from this point of view: "If City of Heroes was still available now, I would be more than happy playing it just the way it was".

I have to agree with this statement here. I wasn't drawn to the individual parts that City got right; a lot of games get some things right, but that doesn't put any of them on par with City. It was the package as a whole that our game got right. Even what deficiencies it had weren't enough to drive people away. A ten year old engine running an eight year old game, standing up to not one but two different competitors... with newer code, and prettier graphics, and active gameplay that appeals to masses of twitch gamers, and the built-in popularity of a decades-old, world-renowned comic book franchise. You'd expect it to crumble within six months of those games being released. But no. In fact it didn't just hold its own, it remained the number one most popular superpowered mmo for years. There was a damn good reason that happened. City of Heroes, as it was, did it right.

I spent three and a half years in Paragon City, and I loved every day of it. That didn't happen because of what I wanted to change about it.

Aviticus, I'm glad to hear about this. An unexpected new possibility, closer than we thought it could be at this early point... very good news in my opinion. I'll be watching to see if there's any way I can help. :)

[Nightmarer]

NEVER strive merely to stay where you were: strive to go one better. That is absolutely essential. The Phoenix Project understands this. I get why many would want to just imitate CoH as closely as possible and get nervous at the idea of changing things, but I guarantee you that just trying to be 'as close as possible without violating IP' will flop. Because that sort of thing always does. If you try to make something without using anything of your own - if your only goal is to use the ideas and inspiration of somebody else - it's already over. Because that formula fundamentally lacks the most necessary ingredients for success.

That I'd definitely agree with IF (and that's unfortunately a huge IF) CoH was still around since, obviously, no point on replicating something that already exists. As it stands now, what I want is CoH back or something as close as possible. As for spiritual successors who understand success and stuff, I will definitely try them, of course I will, same way I tried DCUO and CO (although DCUO was not meant to be a CoH successor) I will try any CoH spiritual successor.-

[ukaserex]

"If City of Heroes was still available now, I would be more than happy playing it just the way it was".

Same here. I left the game in issue 6 - regrettably. I came back in issue 17/18. They could have kept the game the exact same as issue 6 (though I would still be mad about the burn nerf), and I would have been fine. I did like the new changes, but they were hardly necessary for me.

[NecrotechMaster]

Okay,
I've been keeping track of this discussion but haven't jumped in until now.

I had a big long post...but deleted it before pressing the Post button.   

I will just say this.  I believe it was rumored that ego had something to do with the Plan Z split (I do not know this and will not comment on it other than to say that it was one of the rumors...I purposely did not dig into this because I support both versions and like what I have read from both leads - even if I do believe that both projects are trying to hard to re-invent the wheel!)

It is my hope that Ego will not get in the way of moving forward with something that has the potential to advance the publication timetable by months, if not years.

i think i remember that, i dont know if it was ego or just plain unwilling to work with others if they arent doing it "their" way

[Victoria Victrix]

So far this looks very promising.  Your leadership seems reasonable, and your plan solid.  Good luck!

After all many of the best games out there started out as a bunch of guys working in their spare time.

[Illusionss]

Sounds to me like this is turning into what could be a Godsend for The Pheonix Projext. While more games in development sounds safer, we are a very limited group here. Limited by population, money, talent, drive, etc. I'm not downing our community at all, I'd stack us up against any other gaming community when it comes to quality, but we can get spread too thin.

I personally thought the first split was disastrous, fracture the community further with this Justice thing and now this and we will not have enough volunteers to keep any one project going.

Total agreement here, the first split truly made my heart sink. I think getting one game off the ground is an uphill battle. We dont have enough interested parties to be getting three or more games off the ground.

Too many cooks spoil the soup: trite but true.

[Noyjitat]

Champions started out with a bloodied nose due to massive launch day nerfs and like sto was rushed to launch thanks to atari. Both publisher and developer made mistakes. Very costly mistakes. Both games are still fun but likely could of been much better. But with pwe controlling them now they likely wont shut down anytime soon.

[Aviticus Gladius]

Thanks to all the support and encouragement of this community, our spiritual successor to City of Heroes, "Valiance Online" now has a home:

http://valiance.shogn.net

Instead of waiting for suggestions for forum sections, I took the liberty of conjuring up a few myself. I'll be making a formal post in the proper section of these forums. Feel free to dive into the forums and start helping us build the game. We'll posting updates here real soon.

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. We are off to a great start. Here's a list of implementation:


Currently Implemented
Server Authentication
Logging Into The Server
Server Authoritative Movement/Combat
Power Activation/Targeting
Basic Mob AI (Random Roaming)
Player And Mob Vitals
Limited Outfit Customization
Questing (Fetch Quests/Kill Specific Amount Of Mobs)
NPC Interaction
Stores Interaction
Bank Interaction
Resource Gathering
Blueprints Gathering
Item Crafting
Inventory/Account Storage



Planned Implementations
Fully Modeled City Zone
Pedestrian AI
Vehicle AI
Final NPCs
Final Mobs
Starter Power [Energy Power]
More Powers
Buffs
Debuff
More Customizations
"Dungeon" Instances
Grouping
Super Groups/Guilds



This is our projection for the basic demonstration we will be working towards; this reflects pre-alpha 1.0. The next version will be pre-alpha 2.0 which will have an updates list based on community demands. I'm going to get back to planning, but I'll be checking the site for input to document. Thanks as always for the outstanding support here.

[nataliaofvirtues]

Aviticus Gladius, I would first like to take a moment to thank you for being a part of the COH community. I have read this forum since the day you began posting. To be honest I was incredibly touched by your compassion for the game and community.

There is not a single day that passes without me wanting nothing more than to log into City and run around with the friends that I have made there or work on one of the bases that I built, or create a new toon. But that just isn't possible. :( I have spent countless hours in Atlas Park and countless more on Perigrine Island, and I can honestly say that I never once got tired of any of it. City of Heroes was so much more than just another game to pass time with. I found that I could be suffering MAJOR stress and jump in to City and in just a short period of time the stress would dissipate leaving me a much nicer person.


I agree with you regarding the "feel" of City of Heroes. Since December, I have tried EQII, GWII, WOW, Rift, CO, DC universe, Assassins Creed, SWTOR and several I can't even remember the name of, but as of yet I can't find anything that can fill the huge void that I feel in game play. I want COH back. Plain and simple!

I have read all the pros and cons of a "clone" City, and I for one feel that if it plays like City and feels like City, then where do I sign up.
I am grateful that our community has set out to bring back our home, but it must feel like home. I am more than willing to do whatever I can to assist whomever it is that is taking lead on this/these projects, however, I feel that one divine effort would be far more successful then 3, 4 or possibly more all tying to reach the same goal and splitting the community.

[Thunder Glove]

I just hope any "spiritual successor" has the one element I seriously need, before all others: the ability for me to run it.

I'm not a wealthy man, or even a moderately-well-off man.  My budget is extremely limited.  I can afford $15 a month to subscribe to a game, but I can't afford to spend thousands or even hundreds of dollars to buy a whole new computer to run it.  That means that if a game can't run on my current setup (a Mac laptop running OS 10.6, with dual 2.13 processors, 2 GB of RAM, and 10 GB of free HD space), then it doesn't matter how good it is, I can't play it.

CoH, being an eight-year-old game with a Mac port, was therefore perfect.  I had to turn the graphics settings down somewhat, but I could run it at full speed.  So before anything else, that's what I absolutely need in a "spiritual successor".

I'm extremely excited about the prospects of a new game that will let me recreate my CoH characters (not to mention the dozens of characters still dancing around in my brain, demanding to be created), but if a new game won't run at full speed on my computer (and I don't mind having to lower the graphic settings to do so - running at full speed is more important to me than graphic detail), then I'm afraid I'll just have to wish you the best of luck and go play something else.

[Rotten Luck]

One of the reasons I mentioned a merging with the Phoenix Project is they have a lot of good ideas.  The problem with TPP is they have A LOT of good ideas.  Is this bad no.  However with all the new ideas I fear they are loosing sight of the "Spiritual Successor" aspect.  Will I try what would come out of there effort.  Hell yeah.  However that evil mastermind on my shoulder is chanting DOOOOM.  Maybe he's more of a Joker then a Mastermind. 

So in that way I was hoping you can say "Is that really needed?"  At the same time the Lore and stories already being set up in TPP will give your operations a boost.  Mainly because like I said in my first post.  We been working for months on something... anything the result is the Plan Z projects.  Good ideas in all of them some deserve to be made. 

Will I be happy if such doesn't happen.  Sure it's like seeing people rebuild after a disaster.  You can't help feel good seeing people working against depression and building something grand, even if you wonder at the designs.

[Nightwatch]

Valiance Online looks interesting.  Although I share some discomfort at the thought of three separate projects under Plan Z: Heroes and Villains, the Phoenix Project, and now Valiance Online.

One question - when do you expect (all things going well) any of us can sit down and log in and actually play this game?  7 months? 7 years?

[Nightwatch]

.. possibly four actually .. not sure whether "Justice" is still a live project.