Stand Up!!

[Mazz vs The World]

Who will stand up for us? I understand that we "the fans" are fighting to get our game back but you can't win the game by being a fan you have to win, by being a player. Right now I see the developers of games as the players why won't they stand up for us (the fans)? I get that money is the most important thing in the world to people and this trumps everything else but at some point isn't it time to stand up for what is right? I mean Paragon Studios just got kicked to the curb and considering that a new issue was around the corner I'd say it was quite abrupt. So why didn't they stand up and fight for us or for themselves or for the game THEY created? They just gave up and they leave us fans to desperately fight with the little tools we have. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that the developers are bad people but I don't understand how they allowed their creation to go without a fight. I mean a lot of them have moved on to other projects which is good financially but what about the fans who have supported them financially for 7-8years, do we not matter anymore? I think the most powerful tool they have is their knowledge of developing, the publishing companies have no power when it comes to building an MMO they NEED developers. Boycott them stop developing until they appreciate what you do!! Until they appreciate the game that we all love/loved!! It just seems like the fans are left to fight for our game and we don't have enough power to do it. We need people higher up to get this thing back, we alone may be able to do it, but who knows how long that will take and by then a lot of us may have moved on. So I ask and I hope a developer is reading this when is it time for you to stand up and say "NO, you will not treat our fans this way and if you do I WILL NOT WORK FOR YOU!!"

[Nafaustu]

RE: Paragon studios only

What i've been able to pick up so far.  I think most of these are confirmed facts, but I would like others to correct me if i'm wrong, because I do not want to spread misinformation.

--Paragon studios found out they were fired on August 31, 2012 and that their studio no longer existed.   They were told to go home.   That was their notification.

--In the months prior to that they were negotating for independance for the studio, and it failed

--After being unceremoniously dropped off a cliff, they continued to try and negotiate for existance and CoX, but they failed

--Despite great risk to their severence pay, they continued to encourage us and keep us informed without violating their NDAs or blowing negotations.

--Slightly unrelated, but when Hit Streak was the last of them he marathoned the last night to put a Dev presence in monster spawning.   There was also one full GM on that marathoned as well.   I forget his name, but both of them are incredibly awesome.

--On the last night, practically all the Devs were on, doing tours of Atlas, asking us to stay strong and standing with us.

In summary, they never stopped caring, and a lot of them are still with us, but they also need to eat, yo.   They have families.   They're doing what they can, but they don't owe us.   They're doing it because they loved what they did.   They are us.

I personally have great faith that whever the good people of Paragon went will be vastly improved by their presence.

I may have gone slightly off topic, but that's my two cents.   WE are the voice, and they are us.   If we're standing up, we're standing together.   We can cause change without hunger strikes and unemployment. :)

[Mazz vs The World]

RE: Paragon studios only

What i've been able to pick up so far.  I think most of these are confirmed facts, but I would like others to correct me if i'm wrong, because I do not want to spread misinformation.

--Paragon studios found out they were fired on August 31, 2012 and that their studio no longer existed.   They were told to go home.   That was their notification.

--In the months prior to that they were negotating for independance for the studio, and it failed

--After being unceremoniously dropped off a cliff, they continued to try and negotiate for existance and CoX, but they failed

--Despite great risk to their severence pay, they continued to encourage us and keep us informed without violating their NDAs or blowing negotations.

--Slightly unrelated, but when Hit Streak was the last of them he marathoned the last night to put a Dev presence in monster spawning.   There was also one full GM on that marathoned as well.   I forget his name, but both of them are incredibly awesome.

--On the last night, practically all the Devs were on, doing tours of Atlas, asking us to stay strong and standing with us.

In summary, they never stopped caring, and a lot of them are still with us, but they also need to eat, yo.   They have families.   They're doing what they can, but they don't owe us.   They're doing it because they loved what they did.   They are us.

I personally have great faith that whever the good people of Paragon went will be vastly improved by their presence.

I may have gone slightly off topic, but that's my two cents.   WE are the voice, and they are us.   If we're standing up, we're standing together.   We can cause change without hunger strikes and unemployment. :)

Thanks for this but I haven't felt the presence of a dev since the shutdown is all I'm saying. I understand they need to eat and take care of families but so did Martin Luther King Jr. (His Birthday was Tuesday so he's my icon right now) and he fouight as hard as he could at any cost  (which ended in death) for change and that was a much bigger and drastic need than COH. I digress, further I just feel like Titan is the only place the fight is really, and it feels minimal. I mean yeah we sent in letters to Disney, and yeah we did WONDEROUS things like having fundraisers for the devs. I don't think they necessarily owe us anything but it would be nice to know that even though they got fired (immorally) and the game has come to an end they are still here to fight for it. If they aren't then I feel that maybe it is time to move on, they did.

[JaguarX]

I see what you saying. But remember even as an ex employee, no one wants negative reputation to follow them. Those years spent in Paragon Studios and some prior during the cryptic days amount up to about 8-10 years of employment. If they said half the stuff that many players are able to freely say with no regards, then it would be too easy for NCSoft, when the next job calls to see what the employee is like, to say, "well they was a great worker but after we had to cut back they turned into a sour puss. Be careful with this one. He/she may turn on you when you do something that do not meet their approval" And that can mean the the difference between gaining employment or spending another year in the unemployment line. The career field for game devs is small as is and thus they must be careful what they say and who they associate with against NCSoft. and I dont think it would be very bright to antagonize a company where 8-10 years of work experience was spent and let it go down the tube over throwing a fit for being laid off, especially in these tight times where cut backs are more common.

For example if a dev was active here, and their future employee took a look here and see that they are either part of or actually bad mouthing their ex employee, then they may think, "Well that could be us. Things do not go as planned all the time and we at times might have to cut back and if we lay off this guy, he might go bad mouth or hang out with people that is trying to ruin our reputation. Nah, lets find a person that will be more 'understanding.'"

Unlike players, who can curse NCSoft up and down on every website, and rally against NCSoft actions without anything at stake, their careers and livelihood is on the line.

[Mazz vs The World]

Yeah I can understand that stance. I would hate to ruin a great reference. I never meant that the devs should bad mouth NCSoft I only employ them to help us fight to get it back. They have access to things we don't and could help get things into the right hands to actually make a difference, instead of us shooting in the dark. Unless, NCSoft made them sign waivers stating they will not aid in the re-opening of COH whatsoever, but if it were me I would still help get the game back. Just read all of the nostalgic posts about COH and see how much it means to them that (excuse my french) SHIT is sad :(.

[JaguarX]

Yeah I can understand that stance. I would hate to ruin a great reference. I never meant that the devs should bad mouth NCSoft I only employ them to help us fight to get it back. They have access to things we don't and could help get things into the right hands to actually make a difference, instead of us shooting in the dark. Unless, NCSoft made them sign waivers stating they will not aid in the re-opening of COH whatsoever, but if it were me I would still help get the game back. Just read all of the nostalgic posts about COH and see how much it means to them that (excuse my french) pancake is sad :(.

Yeah.

I think through a person that is said to have the inside through B.Clayton, they did sign some paper stuff. I may be late and may be outdated, but last I read, B.Clayton is still at it.

Not to mention I think they tried to negotiate to buy COH and it didnt work.

I'm with you on that. I think some may have valuable inside information and some may be just as clueless and or have just as much inside information as the average person on this forum have. And being people, they probably all took it and dealt with it in different ways. Some may have felt sad, said damned, and  moved on. Some may have been and still are focused on finding employment rather than trying to get COH back. Some may be fighting all they can but just dont post here. While here in the open, a few people are leading a large scale effort to get COH, build another game or two or three, smear NCSoft, (and...really I have no idea what is the main goal here if there is any, I see many), there are many other efforts being made that is not stated on Titan network. One that I know of is not using internet too much, they said it's too easy for things to get misinterpreted, misquoted, and twisted, so they are keeping it off the wide net and doing it the old fashioned way of contacting people.

But besides that last sentence, everything else said above in this post here is me just guessing and is not to be taken as an insinuation of being cold hard fact, or I that know them personally. I figure only way to get the true answer is to ask them personally. I think Posi Matt have a blog now.

[Codewalker]

They have been.

Granted, not everyone at the studio -- I think a few took it pretty hard and just want to move on -- but a great many have been very supportive of our efforts.

Much of it has been behind the scenes. They can't just come out and make a public spectacle of it, because it could damage the efforts if NCSoft took offense to it, as well as their personal reputation in the industry. Even things like talking to Mercedes Lackey and TonyV on the phone to discuss the possibilities of third party buyouts a la TF Hail Mary have been a great source of useful information. NDAs are a minefield, but there are ways of conveying hints that don't violate them.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were even a few undercover on these forums. I'm not saying there are -- I haven't checked -- just that it wouldn't surprise me.

And again, a lot of it is things that you wouldn't even see unless you went looking for them.

TL;DR: Just because you don't see an XXPositronXX account posting on the Titan forums or leading the charge on Twitter doesn't mean that we aren't being supported.

[Mazz vs The World]

I keep reading the word reputation being thrown around. I have a huge problem with the word simply because where do you draw the line of what is right vs your reputation? NCSoft obviously does not care about how this decision effects their reputation, maybe cause they are powerful enough to handle it or maybe because they know no one will stand up to them except the "fans"? I understand that it would be bad "business" to bad mouth NCSoft if you're a dev but stating that you do not agree with their decision and that you will help to get back the game you and your fans love can not be bad for your reputation, if anything it should make it better. I'm pretty sure many of you have looked into other games that COH Devs are now working on as a result from being let go. Their reputation is not at stake our game is, well was, is... whatever i can't decide. The point I'm trying to make is nothing gets resolved until you step out of your comfort zone if you're so afraid of NCSoft shutting down your life then why put your heart and soul into a project like COH? I mean 7-8 years and boom it's gone and no longer here that is ludicrous (I really wanted to spell it Ludacris) All in all I think if more Devs, and not just from Paragon, but other devs on other projects/games would stand up for the gaming world they alone could change how games are handled in the future. Perhaps they should form a business where they are the publisher and developer under one roof?

[NecrotechMaster]

from what ive read, a majority of the known devs have found new jobs with other companies

the only devs ive not heard much about was posi and war witch, although i think they have been in close contact with the task force hail mary group and if by some miracle we do get ncsoft to sell, then they supposedly could get a core group of devs back together to work on the game since they know what they are doing

but so far the only real backers we have had was paragon studios, we have had other supporters like the folks at massively who have been continually doing stories regarding our efforts and the folks at starburst who publicly called for a boycott of ncsoft products

if we have any other supporters like that or poeple wanting to back us, most likely they havent publicly revealed themselves

[Taceus Jiwede]

I agree with Codewalker 100%.  Most of the dev's are probably helping us undercover.  I know its easy to say they could try more but for all we know they are spending all day every day trying to get back COH.  Not to mention these people got fired from a game they loved and spent, in some cases, 8-10 years of their life on.  Sure we may of played the game that long but they put them selves into that game, their blood, sweat, and tears with late nights and early morning and enough coffee to kill an elephant.  Can you really blame the people who just wanted to move on?  I imagine when this happened, like us, they were hurt, confused, angry, and unsure of what action to take.  How would they go home and tell their families that they got fired for no reason, that all that time they missed at home trying to get CoH successful because it wasn't just their job it was their baby, was for nothing? 

Those people every day left their houses and went to work where they had both friends and co-workers putting their lives into something they believed in and then it was ripped out from under them because of what seems to be nothing more then greed.  Their lives literally changed drastically in that one day, they lost their source of money, they lost their livelyhood, they lost part of themselves when their ideas and hard work was killed.  So for the devs that are staying and helping good for them we could use it.  For the rest of them that moved on they have earned that right they spent enough time and energy thinking about CoH everyday while we just played it.  Its our time to fight and if they choose to help than so be it. 

[JaguarX]

Excellent points, Mazz vs The World and Taceus.


But the line is very thin and fuzzy between what is right vs reputation and or job.

I see this happen in the government field all the time. A whistle blower does the right thing and next week they are fired. Even though officially, no reprecussions are supposed to happen for blowing the whistle but I have yet to see it happen that way. And it's hard to sue without money.

Me and a friend had a discussion like this the other day. Me, I'm lucky to work with good people but if it really came down to it, what would I do? To tell you the truth, I dont know. I need my job, and dont need something like that to be a speed bump and wasted time as I'm trying to move up. My friend on the other hand, works because she wants to, not because she have to. To her, it's merely a hobby, something to do to get out the house during the week, and she said that she dont give a crap. Wrong is wrong and right is right and will call it like it is regardless of the consequences. If she wanted to, she can just get another job and dont need their reccommendation. Me, I've been here since 2002 since 18 for the same "organization" (DoD) since I was 18. Just changed uniforms but same corporation equivalent. And if I lose it, that is over 10 years down the tube. Her, man this chick spends what I make in a year in a day trip to the mall like it's nothing. She could be one of those rich house wives if she wanted to but she choose to work so I see the risk is very low for her compared to me where I need my check to maintain my very comfortable status of living conditions. She can walk into the office one day and say "f-you, I'm out of here and wont miss a dime." Me, I'd have to did into my savings, retirement funds, and investments to stay afloat, which probably would carry me at my current living standards about 6 months, or a year at most if I add ramen noodles to my diet three times a week. I'm glad that I never had to be in that situation and cant knock the ex-devs for going either way because I have no idea how I would react or do in that situation. I know it wrong and probably would want to tell it how it was, but on the other hand, I have to think how would that affect me in the long run. I'm not sure how it work in private sector but in the gov. sector you have to be especially careful because when going from one gov. job to another, the first thing they do is call up the last gov. position to get the scoop and depending on how the boss feel, they can drag your name through the mud and you'll never get hired by another gov agency ever again. Even when switching to private sector, it can follow you because there is usually a few questions on just about every application that ask about federal service. There are about three guys here that used to be gov employees and now standing on the corner asking for change. One called his boss, who is still working for gov. and basically now bragging how he ruined this poor guy's life. The other two called their bosses out on misuse of gov. funds. One boss got forced retirment with full benefits and the other boss simpy got transfered and now working in a high end position making twice the amount they was making before. But the employees that blew the whistle have been reduced to begging for change. While the ones that remained silent went on to have successful and still ongoing careers.



One judge told me, "The truth is irrelevant. It's a false line of hope given to those without power. What matters is what those with power chose to believe. A person can walk into this court room today, and tell the truth but i can put them away for years if I simply dont like how he look at me. Even if they appeal and win, the time served is time they will never get back and I'll move on to another day as if nothing ever happened."

[Triplash]

I keep reading the word reputation being thrown around.

I think there might be a misunderstanding going on. The word "reputation" here doesn't mean "I want the fans to like me". It means "someone who breaks contracts and spreads bad publicity when they get fired is never going to get hired again. Anywhere. Ever. Because employers now know they can't be trusted."

I have a huge problem with the word simply because where do you draw the line of what is right vs your reputation?

You draw that line at the point when you ask yourself, "Do I stand up for what I believe in, or do I want to eat next month?" When that question crosses your mind, you draw that line pretty quickly, and you firmly choose which side you stand on.

I agree that what you're saying could theoretically work, except for one thing. Let's say a bunch of developers do stand up one day and say "That's it, I've had enough, I'm not doing things your way anymore!" As they're walking out the door, the boss is standing behind them saying "Send in the next applicant." Because there is always a waiting room full of people who don't have a job yet, and who most definitely are willing to do things exactly the way the boss wants them done. If it's a choice between "a job you don't like" and "hungry and homeless"... well, only a fool doesn't know which one to pick there.

It's a tragedy that so often those are our only choices, but it's still true.

Perhaps they should form a business where they are the publisher and developer under one roof?

As for this part, well... hopefully we've been opening people's eyes enough that a few companies will start doing it this way in the near future. If just one company succeeds in this model it will cause others to take it up as well, then more and more, until it could perhaps become the new standard.

But hey, one fight at a time right? ;)

[Taceus Jiwede]

One judge told me, "The truth is irrelevant. It's a false line of hope given to those without power. What matters is what those with power chose to believe. A person can walk into this court room today, and tell the truth but i can put them away for years if I simply dont like how he look at me. Even if they appeal and win, the time served is time they will never get back and I'll move on to another day as if nothing ever happened."

I wont de-rail the OP more than this but that Judge should be commended for his honesty and then punished for his corruption.  As a person who has been at the mercy of a man who "could not like the look of you" makes me more sick then anything on the planet.  I am not speaking towards you JaguarX you were simply making a point and a good one at that.  But I just couldn't allow quote like that be shouted without everyone knowing how disgusting and painful that is when you are that person standing before this person, who at the end of the day gets to go home while the person in front of him at the least leaves with a finical burden for the next several months AT LEAST.

But for the OP: Your point is perfect, these people shouldn't have any obligation to us they don't owe us any more.  And risking to throw away everything they have worked for is just crazy and downright selfish for people to ask for.  Paragon would love to help and I am sure they have done everything they can and possibly more, but I don't blame them for looking out for their own hides.

[Segev]

Ah, the thesis of power. In truth, the only question that one needs to ask before doing something is, "Can I do it? Can they stop me?" If "yes" and "no" are the answers, then you can do anything. It may cost you more than you'd like, but it's still an option.

The reason why "right" and "wrong" get into it is both moral and practical. In truth, "they" can probably make the cost ridiculously high for actions of which "they" truly disapprove. Concentrated cooperative efforts of dedicated individuals out-strip anything that lone individuals who refuse to work with others will ever accomplish. (This is not a thesis of collectivism v. individualism; quite the contrary, but rugged individualists are at their BEST when they work with enlightened self-interest, which means making common cause with other such individuals and helping to protect the incentives that keep people working hardest, willingly.)

Justice, mercy, law, rights...these things are real, and matter, but they are aspects of more advanced understandings of the application of power. "Can they stop me?" is a deceptive question. "They" may not be able to now, but later... Justice is application of stopping power post-hoc, but pre-emptively to future malefic action. Law is a construct that enables enlightened individuals to interact in a known structure and get things done without fear of misunderstanding leading to squabbling and loss. Rights are principles which must be recognized in a functioning society that achieves maximum power for all (rather than a relative maximum power for the biggest bully). Mercy is the fun one; mercy is the one that calls for kindness when it is undeserved. But it is the greatest social contract of all; if all adhere to mercy, then none shall be in truly dire straights, ever. Not while others are around.

[Mazz vs The World]

I agree with all of your viewpoints. However, I honestly feel that the devs (all devs not just COH devs) need to stand up and demand respect. Until that happens the publishers will hold the power and will continue to shut down games when they see fit. Just like someone mentioned earlier if a Dev was to stand up and leave their job, then there would be another to replace him. That same thing goes for the player of any game. I recall many informing the Devs that if they didn't balance (fix) the game where they saw problems, then they would leave and guess what nothing was fixed cause they know how unimportant we are, and those people left and new players continued to roll in. So I understand needing a job, needing to eat, and needing to survive. I also understand how change happens and it's always through struggle and hardship, never is it through skittles and rainbows. 

[Segev]

It's remarkably easy to ask somebody else to "stand up" and endure hardship, put their families through hardship, when one conveniently is "not in a position" to put themselves out on an equally thin limb. Mazz, if you want these developers to "stand up," what are you prepared to do to support them, to put yourself at equal risk in a way that will support the goal you seek?

I am not trying to call you out and mock you; I am trying to make a point: if you truly feel that this is something for which it is worth taking these pains and risks on others' behalf, what can and will YOU do to support it as well as you are able by expending as much of yourself as you ask of them? Change doesn't happen because others demand that somebody sacrifice to bring it about; change happens when people care enough to make the sacrifice themselves.

[Mazz vs The World]

What would I have to put at stake to save this game?? I have no power, that is the point. There is nothing I can stop doing that will hurt the gameworld business model. I have nothing to offer, I, you, and we, are CHEERLEADERS sitting on the sideline. Yelling cheers to make a change in the gaming business. Sure that is supportive but it is up to the players to play the game. I am not sure where this is confusing to you? If I were in their shoes, I would put myself out there, I would make sure this does not happen to another community like ours it's sad, depressing, and honestly it's not good business. However I am not in the position to do anything but CHEER, it's frustrating knowing that, but I am trying to reach others who do have the power to change things. So you ask what will/have I done, well I signed the petition, I got others to sign it who didn't even play it, I helped as much as I could with the little power I have as a fan. Now it's time for the big boys/girls to step it up, that is all I am saying, we have no power unless we miraculously get 60%+ to stop playing NCSoft games we will not effect them, they will not care what we say, and we will continue to be COH'less. I am done on this subject, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Codewalker]

Many of the developers were "just players" before they started working on the game. They're not magical flying unicorns, and at this point they have just as much power as anyone else does.

By believing there's nothing you can do, you're guaranteeing there's nothing that you will do.

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

How true.

[Mazz vs The World]

Many of the developers were "just players" before they started working on the game. They're not magical flying unicorns, and at this point they have just as much power as anyone else does.

By believing there's nothing you can do, you're guaranteeing there's nothing that you will do.

How true.

I already stated what I HAVE done and you continue to miss the point but it's ok this is exactly why this can and will continue to happen. Also the Dev has all the power if they all stop developing there will be no game to play. Research the number of times a game has changed developers and then has lost their player base because the replacement Dev was not accommodating to the players. Please don't make personal attacks if you do not agree with my opinion it's childish.

[Segev]

Well, as an example, you're asking devs to risk losing everything - including the ability to ever have a job in their field of expertise again. While I know you lack much in the way of funds, one dramatic (but foolish, in my opinion) gesture you could do that would prove your sincerity would be to offer to support a dev and his family using your income, living on whatever you have left over after doing so. It would be an equivalent risk you were taking to what you're asking of them.

Again, I'm not faulting you for not doing this. I'm just trying to point out why faulting the devs for not doing so is unfair.