I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP. I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?
City of Heroes, more than most games is suited to open world PvP, since it would make sense thematically. A majority of players even PvPers were not happy with the way PvP was implemented in CoH, but with proper implementation open PvP could add depth, entertainment, and variety to the game. I'm not trying to start a flame war, or convince everyone that open PvP is a good idea. I'm genuinely curious why that consistently seemed to be such a deal breaker.
I don't get it either. As you said, thematically it makes perfect sense, would appeal to a good number of players, and it would've made use of the Paragon overworld.
Assuming players would have a mechanism to choose whether or not to participate in open pvp (i.e. separate servers or the ability to flag oneself for PvP), the only reason I could think of why someone would be against it is he or she is just vehemently against any PvP taking place.
Quote from: LuxunS on November 29, 2014, 02:38:48 PM
I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?
You ask a fair question, and it's worth an honest answer. For me, it's "None of the Above".
All of those you suggest are actually good reasons, but none of those would be what stops me from PvP'ing. I can see how they could make it less enjoyable, or actually are real concerns for me, but the real reason is harder to express. I've been through discussions on this topic in the past, especially in other games I've tried since CoH closed, and I believe my answer here is one enough others share that it's not "just me". I suspect it's a lot more common than most PvP'ers believe, and it cuts to something more fundamental that a PvP'er will have difficulty accepting as even possible.
I've PvP'd before, and done fairly well at it. But it always feels like murder to me.
When I fight another player's avatar in a game, especially one that gives me that sense of immersion, something in the back of my mind flips and says to me:
"This is wrong, we don't intentionally hurt other people. Stop it now." Strange, isn't it? It's just pixels and data structures; I know that, you know that, just about everyone knows that. But that reaction is still there. I can force myself through it if there's enough motivation, but it's not something I can enjoy; it's fundamentally unpleasant, even when I win.
I've spoken to other non-PvP'ers about this, but not enough to wave my hands and presume to give proportions. But some give reasons like the ones the OP offered in the first post in this thread, others find in mildly unpleasant along the lines I've given, and for a few (I met two) it was so bad it would make them physically ill.
For me, I can PvP with a lot of mental preparation in advance, and for a good outside motivation. But I don't seek it out, and generally avoid it whenever possible. I can fight player-controlled NPCs without a problem; if a GM possesses a mob and starts directing its moves, no trouble at all. It's even more fun. But if the back of my mind decides it's a personification of the player, then the fun's over, and I'm just trying to get it over with as fast as possible.
I wouldn't care if Open-World PvP were a ruleset on a server, or even on most of them. But if it was the only kind of server, I would have to pass on that game.
/t LuxunS, dual me
/t LuxunS, dual me
/t LuxunS, y u have pvp off?!?!?!
/t LuxunS, dual me
[Tell] --> LuxunS: Dude, it's spelled 'duel'
/t LuxunS, stfu noob!
/t LuxunS, duel me!
/t LuxunS, duel me now!
/t LuxunS, flag dammit
LuxunS is ignoring you.
/t FlyingCarcass, duel me
/t FlyingCarcass, flag pvp!
/t FlyingCarcass, u scared?
...
I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.
Quote from: FlyingCarcass on November 29, 2014, 06:01:55 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.
Don't a lot of other MMOs block opposed parties from sending tells to each other?
Now, I have one major problem regarding open-world PvP. And this comes from someone who played UO back in the golden age of PKing, when you were dry looted and such:
The problem is simple. This is a GAME. Not a story, not real life. In real life, stuff happens. In stories, there are times when the story has an overwhelming force for or against the protagonists, and plot line has them winning or losing or avoiding the fight, and in any case what matters is the story overall.
But in a game, you don't want to accept "you had no chance there when you got ganked 6 on 1, but it's part of the good vs evil story". A game is, like a sport, meant to be a reasonable challenge, where you have a reasonable chance both of winning and of losing. Arena PvP gives you a reasonable chance by making sure that the sides are evenly matched at least in numbers, and that everyone is ready and prepared to fight. But that is not true in open-world PvP.
CoH open world PvP has a slight advantage in that you can switch to a PvP build reasonably quickly, and that it's limited to a few specific areas rather than most of the world, but it still allows some very unfair situations. Fighting turrets to get a Shivan when two enemies attack you from a distance. Getting attacked 3:1 or worse. Heck, as PKers from UO know, just getting the jump on a target that is not prepared for a fight to begin, is a huge advantage even if the sides are otherwise even.
Duels are not really a problem. Open-world ganking of unprepared or outnumbered opponents is a problem. It creates situations of almost automatic win and lose, and while that is realistic and reasonable in a story, it's not a good concept in a game unless the game is a strong-RP game, which means that it accepts unfair situations in the name of realistic roleplaying. CoH is not such a game, though, so highly unbalanced fights do not belong in it.
Quote from: blacksly on November 29, 2014, 06:18:39 PM
Don't a lot of other MMOs block opposed parties from sending tells to each other?
I think the reference was to same-side duel challenges. Most of the MMO's I've recently tried that support PvP allow for "blue vs blue" dueling, even in many non-PvP areas.
My "other game" is Aion, which I've played off and on since the first NA closed beta... So, yeah. I've had to deal with the good, the bad and the ugly of open-world PvP. What I've found out is that I hate pretty much everything about it. Yes, I can hold my own and yes, I'm still an unapologetic "carebear".
I don't like the limitations that it puts on how you can build a character and what gear/scrolls/pots you "must-have or die a scrub".
I don't like the constant threat of attack when all I want to do is grind some mobs or gather some crafting materials.
I don't like what it does to the game's community. (Be honest. You guys all know that some of your fellow PvPers are total raving ass-hats. <_< )
... and I don't like that it essentially gives griefers a free pass to absolutely ruin other players' fun. ("Because PvP!")
So, yeah. Count me as one of those people who would give a CoH revival with open-world PvP a pass. If I want to dodge foul-mouthed, over-geared twinks, I'll do it with my Songweaver or my Templar. I don't want to deal with that crap while I'm trying to collect badges on my Tank, or finish a street hunt with my Stalker. <_<
Quote from: LuxunS on November 29, 2014, 02:38:48 PM
I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP. I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
I feel the same as AmberOfDzu does. Except, I suck at pvp and frankly I think it's wrong. I just don't get into the let's pull down our pants, pull out the ruler and measure our real estate to see who's got more idea. That's what pvp is to me. My characters are me. I am them. I would never attack a player character as I feel that's hurtful to other players. I realize not everyone sees it my way. A world wide pvp server does make sense for those who enjoy it. I just wouldn't play on it.
Quote from: FlyingCarcass on November 29, 2014, 06:01:55 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.
I was playing CO, yeah my first mistake.
Anyway, this guy invites me to team.
Then about 4 or 5 times sends a PvP challenge.
I'm new to CO, and I probably don't have my toon built right.
So I refuse.
Finally, just to shut him up, I accept.
He kills me.
He then sends a friend request.
Quote from: Brightfires on November 29, 2014, 07:45:18 PM
My "other game" is Aion, which I've played off and on since the first NA closed beta... So, yeah. I've had to deal with the good, the bad and the ugly of open-world PvP. What I've found out is that I hate pretty much everything about it. Yes, I can hold my own and yes, I'm still an unapologetic "carebear".
I don't like the limitations that it puts on how you can build a character and what gear/scrolls/pots you "must-have or die a scrub".
I don't like the constant threat of attack when all I want to do is grind some mobs or gather some crafting materials.
I don't like what it does to the game's community. (Be honest. You guys all know that some of your fellow PvPers are total raving ass-hats. <_< )
... and I don't like that it essentially gives griefers a free pass to absolutely ruin other players' fun. ("Because PvP!")
So, yeah. Count me as one of those people who would give a CoH revival with open-world PvP a pass. If I want to dodge foul-mouthed, over-geared twinks, I'll do it with my Songweaver or my Templar. I don't want to deal with that crap while I'm trying to collect badges on my Tank, or finish a street hunt with my Stalker. <_<
This.
My example of the fun of open world pvp was from Lineage 2. Some jerk with a max level dwarf dressed like Santa that would spend each and every weekend sitting outside of the elven n00b zone and kill over and over anyone who left the city. It didn't matter if he was flagged and attacked by every npc there since they were 20 levels below him. He would kill them and then go back to attacking the new players.
I refused to play that game during the weekend.
Not to mention that CoH never lent itself to this kind of thing:
-Villains played in Rogue Island and Heroes started in Atlas.
-CoH pvpers used highly strained character builds utilizing burst damage that often left the character useless in other situations.
-Many PVPers were quite upset when pvp got "fixed" and several even left the game. I think a lot of them would look to have things changed once again when they figure out that their fire blaster could no long run up with impunity and destroy any defender they saw.
-AP was used as a social gathering place and if it was an open PVP zone it would largely ruin that aspect of the game.
And the Spiritmaster was easily the best character in Aion, IMO. Loved the whole dot/debuff/pet tank nature of it. Can we port those over to CoH instead of the open world PVP? :)
Quote from: LuxunS on November 29, 2014, 02:38:48 PM
I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP. I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?
City of Heroes, more than most games is suited to open world PvP, since it would make sense thematically. A majority of players even PvPers were not happy with the way PvP was implemented in CoH, but with proper implementation open PvP could add depth, entertainment, and variety to the game. I'm not trying to start a flame war, or convince everyone that open PvP is a good idea. I'm genuinely curious why that consistently seemed to be such a deal breaker.
I am sorry but I disagree, I do not want open world pvp. I play to have fun not get ganked by a higher levels when I am hunting or moving to a different missions. So for me it is griefing.
All of my characters have always been made to be competitive in pve, I have never given thought on making a character build for pvp.
Quote from: FlyingCarcass on November 29, 2014, 06:01:55 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.
Anyone who's passed through Goldshire knows what I'm talking about.
Fallen Earth handled open world PvP superbly. Outside of the well-marked PvP zones, you have to be flagged for PvP in order to be targetable by other players, and even then only by characters from your "nemesis" faction and their two allied "shoulder" factions (6-faction game...). You can duel players from your own and allied factions, but not fight them in open (or zone) PvP.
It works well. When not flagged for PvP, it's not at all immersion-breaking to have a fight break out. You can just ignore it, or for a roleplayer like me, take cover (even though you can't be harmed). It adds to the atmosphere for me, given the game's setting and overall very, very high immersion level. If flagged, you're always looking over your shoulder...which for me is just perfect in a post-apocalypse setting. My main character in that game was (or is...I just haven't logged on in a long time) part of an informal agreement among players to always be flagged for PvP.
I think there are lessons to be learned from Fallen Earth's implementation of open world PvP. It can be done in a way that's fun and doesn't ruin immersion. I think it's an easier task in that kind of setting (post-apocalypse) than in a comic superhero setting, but it could certainly be done. I'd have gladly done open world PvP in CoH (prior to the i13 utter ruin, er...reworking of PvP (I dumped PvP like a hot coal after that travesty).
Quote from: AmberOfDzu on November 29, 2014, 03:57:42 PM
When I fight another player's avatar in a game, especially one that gives me that sense of immersion, something in the back of my mind flips and says to me: "This is wrong, we don't intentionally hurt other people. Stop it now." Strange, isn't it? It's just pixels and data structures; I know that, you know that, just about everyone knows that. But that reaction is still there. I can force myself through it if there's enough motivation, but it's not something I can enjoy; it's fundamentally unpleasant, even when I win.
I've spoken to other non-PvP'ers about this, but not enough to wave my hands and presume to give proportions. But some give reasons like the ones the OP offered in the first post in this thread, others find in mildly unpleasant along the lines I've given, and for a few (I met two) it was so bad it would make them physically ill.
For me, I can PvP with a lot of mental preparation in advance, and for a good outside motivation. But I don't seek it out, and generally avoid it whenever possible. I can fight player-controlled NPCs without a problem; if a GM possesses a mob and starts directing its moves, no trouble at all. It's even more fun. But if the back of my mind decides it's a personification of the player, then the fun's over, and I'm just trying to get it over with as fast as possible.
Hey Amber :) Thanks for this, it's something I've tried to put into words for years now, and you have summed it up rather nicely.
I generally don't like PVP at all. Humans are much more clever and inventive than critters (obviously, since critters cannot be either), and I prefer less clever and inventive solutions to my gaming 'problems' (including "there's a dude here; kill him").
Twice I enjoyed PVP in City:
1. Before Inventions, I farmed a couple levels in Recluse's Victory on my main, by casting Grant Invisibility on a Heavy and then running around the zone, killing Arachnos and bombing turrets, "innocently" provoking attacks of opportunity by hostile players. Then my Heavy would eat them for breakfast :)
2. My gaming group/channel organized a PVP ring that aimed at everyone getting just generally "better" - it was occasionally a free-for-all, occasionally tiered brackets, and generally kinda fun. I only participated a couple times (because, as stated before, I prefer less clever enemies) but it was interesting.
Quote from: FlyingCarcass on November 29, 2014, 06:01:55 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.
It wasn't a duel request, but some asshat who wanted me to "race" him around Atlas park. At was at Wents and he wouldn't take no for an answer until someone else in the Auction house said: "DUDE! He said no. Much more nicely than I would. Go away."
So I could easily see that conversation happening with Open world PvP.
I'm so turned off by the PvP culture that I can't imagine an implementation that I would enjoy. All the things on your list are some of the reasons but really (even though I am sure that they are exceptions) PvP is generally unpleasant. Having it exiled to it's own zones where I never have to see or hear it suits me just fine.
But since they are getting a compiled copy of 123 (assuming success) it won't be an issue. With no way to make changes to the game, open world PvP will be a "happy" dream for some other MMO that I would never play.
QuoteI noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP. I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?
City of Heroes, more than most games is suited to open world PvP, since it would make sense thematically. A majority of players even PvPers were not happy with the way PvP was implemented in CoH, but with proper implementation open PvP could add depth, entertainment, and variety to the game. I'm not trying to start a flame war, or convince everyone that open PvP is a good idea. I'm genuinely curious why that consistently seemed to be such a deal breaker.
I didn't read any of the previous comments before posting this. LOL!
I'm not completely against open world pvp but I think that if COH did have it. They should have specific servers for it, like WOW does. I actually enjoy open world pvp on certain games.
With that said, the reason I personally don't want open world pvp in COH is this. TFs are loooooong and when doing a TF, the last thing I want is to get ganked and camped. Which in turn would most likely get me kicked from a team.
In WOW, when I first started playing level 60s would camp the lowbie starting areas. I played WOW for about 30 mins before I logged and didn't return for years after that experience. I don't want that to happen in COH.
I love pvping in WOW it's quick and easy once you figure out what your doing. But I don't like the pvp community in pretty much every game I've ever played. Their immature, arrogant, and generally bad sports all around. So when I pvp in "any" game, I don't join guilds, I close my chat window and I do my best (after I learn how pvp works in the game and what my role is in a pvp setting).
The pvp community is so bad in WOW, that I actually use to joke with a friend of mine. That we should make a chat based game called Trollcraft. When all they could do is type insults to each other and get xp based on word combinations. LOL!
This is the reason why I don't want open world pvp in COH. Honestly there near the end of COH, I started closing my chat window because the pvpers would sit around Atlas park hurling insults at each other in zone chat.
PvP just leaves me angry. I am decent at it but man it keeps my blood boiling. I don't like being that angry.
But I wouldn't care if CoH had open PVP as long as it had a flag toggle.
I have played many games online (and offline as well, actually) Some games are meant to be played against others competetively, some are not.
Games like MOBA's, team FPS's, and RTS's are designed for PvP. Matchmakers are designed to pit players/characters of relative skill and ability against one another.
COH was an MMORPG, and I emphasize the RPG here because, to me, it is an important distinction. COH was developed with a thick and rich history, background, and story that was open enough for each of us to tell our own stories about our characters within(or without) that framework. For most of its developement, COH was expanded laterally not vertically. The Devs (capital), for a long time refused to increase the level cap(beyond the first, planned expansion from 40-50) and gave us more to do in the lower and midlevels to enrich our roleplaying/storytelling options. It is one of the things that made COH unique.
Open PVP usually, in my experience, destroys storytelling. You end up with a bunch of griefers at max or +20 levels camping the noobs or lowbies for a cheap thrill and being rude and disrespectful to other players. That always pulls me out of the story that the Devs and I are trying to tell. That was NOT my experience in COH PVP, but it has been in other games.
The other thing that turns me off to Open PVP is dependant on how looting is handled. I have a limited amount of time to play, anything. I have to budget my time(as do most adults). But if I have to spend hours grinding to gain treasure or to get the drops that I need to get the gear that I want/need, I do not want a griefer to be able to come by, clonk me on the head, shake my pockets out, and walk away with the stuff that I just spent hours gaining, all because they are several levels higher than I am.
PVP also requires a careful balance of game mechanics as well. PVP and PVE are not the same and characters can/need/will be built differently for each. NPCs cannot discover and exploit loopholes in the rules or power combinations. They can only do what the Devs program them to do. Players can and will bend the rules to eke out every advantage, it is what we do. In the end PVP becomes an armsrace between players finding exploits and Devs closing them, until all characters are the same.
That's Open World PVP. I don't like it. I don't play it. It is waste of my precious gaming time. PVP zones, PVP flags, PVP servers, and arenas are all restrictions to PVP that make it less than Open PVP. Some I can live with, some I can't. How they limit PVP would determine whether I could support it.
Just my two cents.
Quote from: LuxunS on November 29, 2014, 02:38:48 PM
I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
Simply put, most people in CoH couldn't handle "losing" when playing a superhero. In PvE, if you had a good toon and played well, you basically didn't die. People were used to that, then they went to a PvP zone and died constantly....so that meant that PvP was horrible. I was one of the most avid zone PvP'ers in the game, and to be an avid PvP'er, you had to accept defeat. No matter how good you were, in zone PvP you were going to die...numerous times. Because unlike in the arena, open world is completely random. You could have a fair fight, you could be owning someone 8vs1 and feel like a king, or you could be getting owned 8vs1 and feel like the game is broken. Having spent years of my life in CoH PvP zones, I saw many newbies die over and over and leave the zone, and I just knew that they'd never be back. Because getting completely owned without any chance of winning is pretty much the opposite of why people play video games.
And that's the problem of open world PvP. If you get lucky, you could have the greatest gaming experience of your life. If you get unlucky, it can completely turn you off from the game for good. And it all depends on the actions of random people around you. That's why a lot of people don't even want that possibility. While I loved PvP (before it was destroyed in I13), there were plenty of times that I just wanted to relax and kill some NPC's without any chance of dying, and the last thing I wanted was some guy randomly attacking me from out of nowhere.
Personally, I have no problem with open world PvP, but it has to be an option, not a requirement.
Quote from: Supermax on December 03, 2014, 05:05:45 AM
Simply put, most people in CoH couldn't handle "losing" when playing a superhero. In PvE, if you had a good toon and played well, you basically didn't die. People were used to that, then they went to a PvP zone and died constantly....so that meant that PvP was horrible. I was one of the most avid zone PvP'ers in the game, and to be an avid PvP'er, you had to accept defeat. No matter how good you were, in zone PvP you were going to die...numerous times. Because unlike in the arena, open world is completely random. You could have a fair fight, you could be owning someone 8vs1 and feel like a king, or you could be getting owned 8vs1 and feel like the game is broken. Having spent years of my life in CoH PvP zones, I saw many newbies die over and over and leave the zone, and I just knew that they'd never be back. Because getting completely owned without any chance of winning is pretty much the opposite of why people play video games.
And that's the problem of open world PvP. If you get lucky, you could have the greatest gaming experience of your life. If you get unlucky, it can completely turn you off from the game for good. And it all depends on the actions of random people around you. That's why a lot of people don't even want that possibility. While I loved PvP (before it was destroyed in I13), there were plenty of times that I just wanted to relax and kill some NPC's without any chance of dying, and the last thing I wanted was some guy randomly attacking me from out of nowhere.
Personally, I have no problem with open world PvP, but it has to be an option, not a requirement.
I have a different take on the CoH PvP experience.
In my opinion it was always broken. There were only a few select combinations that gave a huge advantage. Now anyone could play their fire/nrg blaster backed up by their pal playing an Emp, but when PvP was first going you were forced into a handful of chars like that.
If you played, for instance a dark/dark defender, you would never be able to win or even significantly contribute. It was a simple matter of you not being able to produce enough -tohit to counter a stealthed blaster (using SS and SJ) with their BU/Aim/nuke. Your window of opportunity was about a half second to attempt to apply somewhere along the lines of 150% -tohit.
Additionally, if you wanted to pvp you would be all but forced into cookie cutter like builds that went against one of the things many liked about CoH. This was before multiple build options.
When the Devs did attempt to fix things so that any character would be able to pvp, there was a huge outcry and many players quit the game.
Their fix was far from perfect. For example the average defender would pvp with more resistance than the average tank. To test out the new pvp, I had a friend on his AR blaster attack my Sonic/Sonic defender while I just stood there and he gave up trying to kill me after a minute of solid blasting
Another example was me stalemating several different characters on my Cold/Dark defender and he wasn't even IO'd.
So ultimately, I think PvP was geared for a specific type of player with specific builds early on and broken for the rest of the character types.
Later it was remade to be available for all, but they went too far and made every fight a slugfest that satisfied no one.
Either way it was never as enjoyable to me as any other part of the game.
My problem with open world pvp is: I play a game to have fun and relax; not to get annoyed, frustrated, and angry.
I don't like having be on full alert mode at all times, viewing every other character in the game as a potential enemy, constantly moving and looking over my shoulder, just waiting for that inevitable headshot from nowhere to drop me AGAIN as I'm trying to get to the mission door.
Someone earlier had mentioned Fallen Earth's PVP areas, and they were reasonably well done. They are basically the same as Bloody Bay, etc -- with one big exception: there are rare, but utterly required, components needed for any advanced crafting, that can ONLY be obtained in the pvp areas.
I've got no problem with OPTIONAL goodies (shivans, nukes, etc) - heck I'd even go into the zones now and then [at 3 AM] and get them. I have serious issues when I'm FORCED into the PVP zones in order to advance my PVE experience (I did it, but I always hated it with a passion and I can't even remember how many times I had to just log out for hours at a time waiting for that stupid sniper to go away so I could continue resource gathering).
So Non-Consensual Open World PVP -- No thanks, I'll find a different game to play and save my money.
I appreciate everyone chiming in with their opinions. It may be over simplified but it seems the main reasons that people don't like the idea of Open World PvP.
Griefing, harassment, and spamming.
Imbalance. PvPers tend to be min/maxers and non-optimized characters (whether it be power sets or enhancement builds) don't stand much of a chance. Or one side tends to outnumber the other side again making it so that some players don't stand a chance against superior numbers.
A general dislike of harming other people.
I have an idea for Open PvP that addresses many of these issues and was wondering what the community (particulary those against open PvP) thought about it.
A little history: More than a decade ago I played Everquest and for a little while there was a feature called Project M. Project M allowed players to play as a random monster in the world. They could attack players or other creatures, but could not speak to other players. I think something like this would be great in CoH.
Ideas for implementation:
Players who opt for MvP (monster vs player) are given control of a random boss creature. While controlling this boss creature players cannot speak or use emotes.
Rewards: Monster players earn tokens or tickets that are account bound and can be turned in on any regular character to earn experience and influence. Monster players earn large amounts of this new currency for defeating players and chance for PvP IO, but are also rewarded for being defeated by players. There should be a timer for the rewards for defeating any individual player to prevent farming. The rewards for monster players defeating mobs should be greater than player rewards because boss npcs tend to be weaker than player characters.
Area: Monster play only takes place in PvP zones and Hazard zones. Monsters are always appropriate level for the zone that they are in. Monsters can not be made stronger by leveling or enhancements, nor can they earn or use inspirations.
Since people who opt to play monsters cannot communicate it reduces their ability to harass players. Additionally since most boss npcs don't have access to travel powers (at the same speeds as players), players can leave the area or defeat them. Since monster players are placed in random npc bosses they can't easily return to harass the same player. Also since they people controlling the bosses haven't created a virtual representation of themselves, pve players shouldn't have as much trepidation when fighting them as they appear as any other creature. Boss npcs have no inherent advantage against a given player, I'd say they're at a disadvantage. This evens the playing field for PvE players and gives PvP players a sense of accomplishment if they do manage to defeat a player.
As my understanding goes, the i23 servers will stay as is. But maybe something like this could be a possibility for APR?
Thoughts?
Quote from: Ankhammon on December 03, 2014, 07:33:21 AM
In my opinion it was always broken.
I agree. Well, I'd say it had great potential but was very unpolished. It was added to the game as an afterthought, and it was clear that not much time was spent on its development.
But at the same time, I don't think that "you were forced into a handful of chars" is a good argument. Look at every other niche part of the game. Killing AV's solo, tanking multiple AV's at the same time, farming specific mob types, etc. All those things "forced" you to have a special build. You couldn't kill an AV solo with just any random toon/build in the game. You couldn't farm effectively with just any random toon. PvP was just another niche, so I think it's acceptable that not 100% of toons had the same chance of being successful.
I Always thought pvp zones should of just been copies of existing zones. Rather than entirely new zones you choose the pvp version of it from a menu just like you choose atlas park 10 or grandville 14 when that many copies of the zone is spawned due to server population.
Gimmicks that suck for those that don't want to pvp:
attacking enemy guards flags you
accidentally hitting flag players
wondering into enemy camps
wondering into enemy city
having a pet attack any of the above
Having badges or vehicles/pets as exclusive pvp rewards (likewise pvp content should be made for pvpers that dont want to do pve to earn everything)
Having an option "I don't want to pvp" would prevent you from entering these places or doing these actions but so far I've yet to see that in any game.
Quote from: Supermax on December 04, 2014, 01:25:19 AM
I agree. Well, I'd say it had great potential but was very unpolished. It was added to the game as an afterthought, and it was clear that not much time was spent on its development.
But at the same time, I don't think that "you were forced into a handful of chars" is a good argument. Look at every other niche part of the game. Killing AV's solo, tanking multiple AV's at the same time, farming specific mob types, etc. All those things "forced" you to have a special build. You couldn't kill an AV solo with just any random toon/build in the game. You couldn't farm effectively with just any random toon. PvP was just another niche, so I think it's acceptable that not 100% of toons had the same chance of being successful.
The problem was that it wasn't 100% couldn't pvp.
It was that there were about 3 or so that were head and shoulders above the field. It was all about burst damage without being seen until the final second.
Fire blasters exceled at this because fire has always had a very strong damage potential combined with the ability to jump it's acc to over 200%. Back in the original pvp, this gave blasters in general and fire/nrg a faulty advantage that should have never been. The only thing to be done was to go into intangible or if you could time it (due to SS + Stealth) to hit the blaster with a mez.
Debuffs did very little to dissuade the situation. And it took about 20 seconds for a defender to put on that kind of damage. So that left them out of the game (except Fortitude buffs). Defenders had an ace in the hole with their intangible powers, but they were the first thing nerfed in pvp.
Tanks could usually survive a single Fire/nrg attack, but usually had to limp off with not a lot of health left over. And melee damage for the most part. Inv/SS thought they had a chance, but they had to get real lucky or pick a fight with a defender or controller.
Controllers had to overbuff themselves with Tactics just to see through invis and that was only at like 50 ft. This left them twirling about like an idiot hoping to spot the enemy before their SS +SJ combo'd enemy hit them in the back. The good ones helped themselves out by picking up /storm so they could have a chance at slowing the other guy down.
That left scrappers and there hope was on the spines/regen scrapper who actually did pretty well particularly due to the dot in spines. Claws was the other choice, but it was lethal damage meaning that it took a few seconds to get through the defenses available to a blaster.
EDIT: oops, forgot about the immob in spines that caused some substantial trouble since it was in a lot of the set.
It was only later as more sets (and Villains) appeared that there became more options and that led to the era of the Nrg/regen or Nin stalker. Both had a huge advantage with stealth and could creep up on a victim for the Assassin Strike I win button.
These were my remembrances of the first iteration of pvp anyway. Needless to say, I was not much of a fan.
Quote from: Supermax on December 04, 2014, 01:25:19 AM
I agree. Well, I'd say it had great potential but was very unpolished. It was added to the game as an afterthought, and it was clear that not much time was spent on its development.
But at the same time, I don't think that "you were forced into a handful of chars" is a good argument. Look at every other niche part of the game. Killing AV's solo, tanking multiple AV's at the same time, farming specific mob types, etc. All those things "forced" you to have a special build. You couldn't kill an AV solo with just any random toon/build in the game. You couldn't farm effectively with just any random toon. PvP was just another niche, so I think it's acceptable that not 100% of toons had the same chance of being successful.
Agreed, Super. PVP is a niche just like the rest. The thing is, niche farmers, niche AV hunters and the rest had a controlled environment in which to their thing. As long as we are talking about niche PVPers haveing a controlled environment for their thing, I'm fine with it. When we talk about Open World PVP, then the nichers can impose their gameplay on others who do not want to engage in that niche.
:-X
Quote from: LuxunS on November 29, 2014, 02:38:48 PMI'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?
Because jerks, for the most part. For example, depending on what the game allows ...
The enemy faction may kill/camp your quest NPCs or train giant mobs into the area, leaving you literally unable to make any progress on your PVE missions. The enemy faction rarely looks for same-size-same-level teams to fight ... instead, many prefer to jump solos going about their PVE gather quests or hunt quests, especially waiting until you're in the middle of a gather operation (in City terms, while you're clicking a glowy). You can't realistically assemble a team of upper-level characters geared for PVP to watch your back every time you want to advance a few outdoor PVE missions. You have no reason to believe that the elite people from your own faction will bother to help out. They've usually got better things to do than patrol your side's lowbie zones, and a very small number of invaders can make life miserable for a large number of less-equipped players, which can create a frustration and hostility toward your game.
Basically, the problem with Open World PVP is that it doesn't remain confined to voluntary, consenting, PVP activities. It spills over into PVE activity at the expense of those who aren't inclined to participate and who are literally powerless to respond. It even tends to poison the online interactions of the community (think "care bears").
And yes, PVE mechanics also have a tendency to get compromised by changes made in response to PVP balance concerns. It also tends to create a superior class of gear that can become the minimum standard that PVE league leaders will accept for admission to trial teams, but you can only get it through grinding PVP zones. So even if you're only interested in pursuing PVE, you can get gated out of the PVE trials based on gear. Some people can't afford that time commitment, even if they would otherwise be okay with it. Others are just not interested or literally not able to play at the necessary level of skill. And even if you find a generous league, the design team may get in the habit of balancing end-game activities in terms of the superior class of gear, so even then you can't really contribute.
Essentially, it's incredibly difficult to effectively blend PVE and PVP in an open world, because of jerk behaviors and the consequences of elite gear.
My first MMO was a game called The Realm, originally put out by Sierra. For the longest time, it was open PvP everywhere except in the towns. The drawback was, you took one step outside of town, you nearly instantly were jumped by 6 (a full group) players. All of whom were at least 100 levels (max level was 500 at the time) higher than you. Once you lost, usually before you had the chance to do anything, you dropped a random item in your inventory, and lost 5% of your accumulated exp. Depending on your level, you could lose up to 5 levels. That's right, you could actually be reduced in level from defeats.
Fortunately, after Codemasters took over, they added a PvP flag to reduce the instances of being ganked for everything you own. and increased the level cap to 1000. They didn't really do anything about the defeat penalty though. So, yeah, you could lose 50 levels if you were defeated at level 1000.
However, I have noticed that the insta-death gank mentality resides in any game that allows PvP. Even CoH. My Illusion/FF Controller was ganked by 2 Stalkers, and insta-killed, right after I had started a fight with the Arachnoids in an attempt to acquire a Nuke. I don't mind a friendly match now and then. I don't like being ambushed and not even given a snowballs chance in Hades to defend myself. I have played Mechwarrior Online. I had fun, even when I was severely outclassed and outnumbered, while running around in my little Jenner. Although, I wasn't all that fond of the one times the team builder bugged out and pitted me in my 25 ton mech against 8 other mechs, most of whom were 50 tons or more. :o
Luxun$ I appreciate your efforts to make PvP palatable, but I would rather swallow my own tongue. PvP seems to bring out the worst in people and when I am trying to play a hero, that is the exact opposite of what I want.
If APR has it, then I'll stick with I23. If CoT has it, the same.
I know this is a little necro. but I just re-read LuxanS idea again and this could actually work. I wouldn't do it, but it would seem to remove most of my objections. But I'm not sure the PvP community would like it that much. While skill of the player would count the selection is pretty random as is power selection. Also since PvE bosses are pretty well designed to be defeated, I'n sure what the dedicated PvPer would get from the experience. Also you would still need to allow people to opt out.
Quote from: LuxunS on December 03, 2014, 11:36:25 PM
I appreciate everyone chiming in with their opinions. It may be over simplified but it seems the main reasons that people don't like the idea of Open World PvP.
Griefing, harassment, and spamming.
Imbalance. PvPers tend to be min/maxers and non-optimized characters (whether it be power sets or enhancement builds) don't stand much of a chance. Or one side tends to outnumber the other side again making it so that some players don't stand a chance against superior numbers.
A general dislike of harming other people.
I have an idea for Open PvP that addresses many of these issues and was wondering what the community (particulary those against open PvP) thought about it.
A little history: More than a decade ago I played Everquest and for a little while there was a feature called Project M. Project M allowed players to play as a random monster in the world. They could attack players or other creatures, but could not speak to other players. I think something like this would be great in CoH.
Ideas for implementation:
Players who opt for MvP (monster vs player) are given control of a random boss creature. While controlling this boss creature players cannot speak or use emotes.
Rewards: Monster players earn tokens or tickets that are account bound and can be turned in on any regular character to earn experience and influence. Monster players earn large amounts of this new currency for defeating players and chance for PvP IO, but are also rewarded for being defeated by players. There should be a timer for the rewards for defeating any individual player to prevent farming. The rewards for monster players defeating mobs should be greater than player rewards because boss npcs tend to be weaker than player characters.
Area: Monster play only takes place in PvP zones and Hazard zones. Monsters are always appropriate level for the zone that they are in. Monsters can not be made stronger by leveling or enhancements, nor can they earn or use inspirations.
Since people who opt to play monsters cannot communicate it reduces their ability to harass players. Additionally since most boss npcs don't have access to travel powers (at the same speeds as players), players can leave the area or defeat them. Since monster players are placed in random npc bosses they can't easily return to harass the same player. Also since they people controlling the bosses haven't created a virtual representation of themselves, pve players shouldn't have as much trepidation when fighting them as they appear as any other creature. Boss npcs have no inherent advantage against a given player, I'd say they're at a disadvantage. This evens the playing field for PvE players and gives PvP players a sense of accomplishment if they do manage to defeat a player.
As my understanding goes, the i23 servers will stay as is. But maybe something like this could be a possibility for APR?
Thoughts?
Quote from: TheDevilYouKnow on January 08, 2015, 07:52:44 PM
I know this is a little necro. but I just re-read LuxanS idea again and this could actually work. I wouldn't do it, but it would seem to remove most of my objections. But I'm not sure the PvP community would like it that much. While skill of the player would count the selection is pretty random as is power selection. Also since PvE bosses are pretty well designed to be defeated, I'n sure what the dedicated PvPer would get from the experience. Also you would still need to allow people to opt out.
*puts thinking cap back on*
Hmm.
Maybe there is a pony in this after all. It's more or less allowing players to control NPCs for short periods; and in this sense, isn't a lot different than having a Dungeon Master control an NPC in a pen-and-paper game, or possess a mob in, say, a Neverwinter Nights 1 module.
It might be fresh and exciting to have a boss, or even a small group of mobs behave more intelligently, and it would largely remove my objections posted earlier in the thread.
In a game designed for this from the bottom up, it could be good. But there would have to be griefing safeguards. For instance, the monster-controller shouldn't be able to make a mission un-completable by hiding away or otherwise perma-avoiding the fight. Or taking the potent powers of an NPC which are balanced for a poor AI and using them with deadly effectiveness using their "NI".
I could see players toggling on a "Permission to use NI as available for group and mission bosses" flag, and other players choosing "Join queue to act as NI for other player's fights." There might even be a system to select or prioritize players for this; perhaps by some sort of after-mission rating.
Definitely some potential here, regardless.
I have several issues with Open PvP in Coh Classic:
1. Debuffs often just flatout don't work. I went in asked a PvP built blaster to attack me, used darkest night, fluffy, Howling Twilight and fear to debuff him - he waltzed up and 2 shotted me like I was standing there naked.
2. Burst damage only need apply.
3. Seperate builds - I don't PvP since Issue 13 because I have no intention of relearning how to use all my powers. They don't work like you use them to play the game and I just don't want to bother having to keep the 2 seperate.
Quote from: Codewalker on November 30, 2014, 02:09:38 AM
Anyone who's passed through Goldshire knows what I'm talking about.
Goldshire is just the worst :/ Thank god the zones usually dead most of the time now :) As for open world PvP I don't really see it as a problem so long as it was on specific servers that way pvp'ers can enjoy PvP and pve'ers would be able to peacefully enjoy PvE :)
Been there, done that in WoW on an open pvp server. Wasn't my idea, but that's where my friends wanted to play.
Personally, I don't like mixing PVE and PVP. When I'm leveling a character and fighting mobs, I don't want another player ganking me from behind - it's that simple. Had plenty of that in WoW, and plenty of level 80sh characters stomping my level 20s. Some people really get off on PKing, especially when the other player has zero chance.
I've enjoyed PVP in several games - but it has to be by consent and against the same level player for it to be enjoyable.
Was it the PvP concept that led to ED and the limiting of pets? I've never known the reason as to why that happened.
I had a Fire Controller who I would love to recreate when CoH returns (mostly for sentimental reasons) but to be honest, without the perma-hasten ability and being able to spawn 12 imps, my heart really isn't into it. I slogged through 32 levels of beatings to get those imps. When all the nerfing happened, it irked me so bad, I came close to giving up the game. I know several of my friends did.
Quote from: makjwalton on January 09, 2015, 04:34:52 AM
Was it the PvP concept that led to ED and the limiting of pets? I've never known the reason as to why that happened.
I had a Fire Controller who I would love to recreate when CoH returns (mostly for sentimental reasons) but to be honest, without the perma-hasten ability and being able to spawn 12 imps, my heart really isn't into it. I slogged through 32 levels of beatings to get those imps. When all the nerfing happened, it irked me so bad, I came close to giving up the game. I know several of my friends did.
Not directly. ED was to allow Inventions to add crafting to the game and add some depth. The bad thing was the nerfed with ED prior to having Inventions ready - if they had done both it would have been great!
Quote from: Ironwolf on January 09, 2015, 08:36:57 PM
Not directly. ED was to allow Inventions to add crafting to the game and add some depth. The bad thing was the nerfed with ED prior to having Inventions ready - if they had done both it would have been great!
OK... that makes sense. Why did they change the amount of pets you could spawn?
Because the amount of damage 12 imps dished out was ridonkulous.
The amount of damage a Fire Controller dished out at the endtimes was way more than that, but compared to the baseline of the time, that many imps was ginormously OP.
Quote from: Aggelakis on January 11, 2015, 12:37:37 AM
Because the amount of damage 12 imps dished out was ridonkulous.
The amount of damage a Fire Controller dished out at the endtimes was way more than that, but compared to the baseline of the time, that many imps was ginormously OP.
I completely agree, but, who was that hurting?
Uh? Game balance? Which is what all game developers strive for?
Quote from: Aggelakis on January 11, 2015, 04:30:43 AM
Uh? Game balance? Which is what all game developers strive for?
I completely see your point but who was it hurting? How did my ability to spawn a gazillion imps affect the gameplay of anyone else?
It was hurting the devs. In their souls. In their souls of game balance. Because they matter more than you, in the end of things.
Quote from: Aggelakis on January 11, 2015, 05:55:11 AM
It was hurting the devs. In their souls. In their souls of game balance. Because they matter more than you, in the end of things.
Yet they allowed AE farming, reduced the debt cap and pretty much handed out respecs like they were candy. It seemed like they were smacking you in the face with one hand and patting you on the back with the other. I love this game and played it pretty much from the beginning to the end (I couldn't bring myself to play that last night) but I can truly say that, for me, the first couple of years were way more fun than those that followed.
So sorry to have tangented away from the OP. Never had an interest in PvP. Just felt it was wrong to fight other heroes.