Open World PvP

[Kederren]

I have played many games online (and offline as well, actually) Some games are meant to be played against others competetively, some are not.
Games like MOBA's, team FPS's, and RTS's are designed for PvP. Matchmakers are designed to pit players/characters of relative skill and ability against one another.

COH was an MMORPG, and I emphasize the RPG here because, to me, it is an important distinction. COH was developed with a thick and rich history, background, and story that was open enough for each of us to tell our own stories about our characters within(or without) that framework. For most of its developement, COH was expanded laterally not vertically. The Devs (capital), for a long time refused to increase the level cap(beyond the first, planned expansion from 40-50) and gave us more to do in the lower and midlevels to enrich our roleplaying/storytelling options. It is one of the things that made COH unique.

Open PVP usually, in my experience, destroys storytelling. You end up with a bunch of griefers at max or +20 levels camping the noobs or lowbies for a cheap thrill and being rude and disrespectful to other players. That always pulls me out of the story that the Devs and I are trying to tell. That was NOT my experience in COH PVP, but it has been in other games.

The other thing that turns me off to Open PVP is dependant on how looting is handled. I have a limited amount of time to play, anything. I have to budget my time(as do most adults). But if I have to spend hours grinding to gain treasure or to get the drops that I need to get the gear that I want/need, I do not want a griefer to be able to come by, clonk me on the head, shake my pockets out, and walk away with the stuff that I just spent hours gaining, all because they are several levels higher than I am.

PVP also requires a careful balance of game mechanics as well. PVP and PVE are not the same and characters can/need/will be built differently for each. NPCs cannot discover and exploit loopholes in the rules or power combinations. They can only do what the Devs program them to do. Players can and will bend the rules to eke out every advantage, it is what we do. In the end PVP becomes an armsrace between players finding exploits and Devs closing them, until all characters are the same.

That's Open World PVP. I don't like it. I don't play it. It is waste of my precious gaming time. PVP zones, PVP flags, PVP servers, and arenas are all restrictions to PVP that make it less than Open PVP. Some I can live with, some I can't. How they limit PVP would determine whether I could support it.

Just my two cents.

[Supermax]

I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

Simply put, most people in CoH couldn't handle "losing" when playing a superhero. In PvE, if you had a good toon and played well, you basically didn't die. People were used to that, then they went to a PvP zone and died constantly....so that meant that PvP was horrible. I was one of the most avid zone PvP'ers in the game, and to be an avid PvP'er, you had to accept defeat. No matter how good you were, in zone PvP you were going to die...numerous times. Because unlike in the arena, open world is completely random. You could have a fair fight, you could be owning someone 8vs1 and feel like a king, or you could be getting owned 8vs1 and feel like the game is broken. Having spent years of my life in CoH PvP zones, I saw many newbies die over and over and leave the zone, and I just knew that they'd never be back. Because getting completely owned without any chance of winning is pretty much the opposite of why people play video games.

And that's the problem of open world PvP. If you get lucky, you could have the greatest gaming experience of your life. If you get unlucky, it can completely turn you off from the game for good. And it all depends on the actions of random people around you. That's why a lot of people don't even want that possibility. While I loved PvP (before it was destroyed in I13), there were plenty of times that I just wanted to relax and kill some NPC's without any chance of dying, and the last thing I wanted was some guy randomly attacking me from out of nowhere.

Personally, I have no problem with open world PvP, but it has to be an option, not a requirement.

[Ankhammon]

Simply put, most people in CoH couldn't handle "losing" when playing a superhero. In PvE, if you had a good toon and played well, you basically didn't die. People were used to that, then they went to a PvP zone and died constantly....so that meant that PvP was horrible. I was one of the most avid zone PvP'ers in the game, and to be an avid PvP'er, you had to accept defeat. No matter how good you were, in zone PvP you were going to die...numerous times. Because unlike in the arena, open world is completely random. You could have a fair fight, you could be owning someone 8vs1 and feel like a king, or you could be getting owned 8vs1 and feel like the game is broken. Having spent years of my life in CoH PvP zones, I saw many newbies die over and over and leave the zone, and I just knew that they'd never be back. Because getting completely owned without any chance of winning is pretty much the opposite of why people play video games.

And that's the problem of open world PvP. If you get lucky, you could have the greatest gaming experience of your life. If you get unlucky, it can completely turn you off from the game for good. And it all depends on the actions of random people around you. That's why a lot of people don't even want that possibility. While I loved PvP (before it was destroyed in I13), there were plenty of times that I just wanted to relax and kill some NPC's without any chance of dying, and the last thing I wanted was some guy randomly attacking me from out of nowhere.

Personally, I have no problem with open world PvP, but it has to be an option, not a requirement.

I have a different take on the CoH PvP experience.
In my opinion it was always broken. There were only a few select combinations that gave a huge advantage. Now anyone could play their fire/nrg blaster backed up by their pal playing an Emp, but when PvP was first going you were forced into a handful of chars like that.
If you played, for instance a dark/dark defender, you would never be able to win or even significantly contribute. It was a simple matter of you not being able to produce enough -tohit to counter a stealthed blaster (using SS and SJ) with their BU/Aim/nuke. Your window of opportunity was about a half second to attempt to apply somewhere along the lines of 150% -tohit. 

Additionally, if you wanted to pvp you would be all but forced into cookie cutter like builds that went against one of the things many liked about CoH. This was before multiple build options.

When the Devs did attempt to fix things so that any character would be able to pvp, there was a huge outcry and many players quit the game.
Their fix was far from perfect. For example the average defender would pvp with more resistance than the average tank. To test out the new pvp, I had a friend on his AR blaster attack my Sonic/Sonic defender while I just stood there and he gave up trying to kill me after a minute of solid blasting
Another example was me stalemating several different characters on my Cold/Dark defender and he wasn't even IO'd.

So ultimately, I think PvP was geared for a specific type of player with specific builds early on and broken for the rest of the character types.
Later it was remade to be available for all, but they went too far and made every fight a slugfest that satisfied no one.

Either way it was never as enjoyable to me as any other part of the game.

[KennonGL]

My problem with open world pvp is:  I play a game to have fun and relax; not to get annoyed, frustrated, and angry.

I don't like having be on full alert mode at all times, viewing every other character in the game as a potential enemy, constantly moving and looking over my shoulder, just waiting for that inevitable headshot from nowhere to drop me AGAIN as I'm trying to get to the mission door.

Someone earlier had mentioned Fallen Earth's PVP areas, and they were reasonably well done.  They are basically the same as Bloody Bay, etc -- with one big exception:  there are rare, but utterly required, components needed for any advanced crafting, that can ONLY be obtained in the pvp areas.

I've got no problem with OPTIONAL goodies (shivans, nukes, etc) - heck I'd even go into the zones now and then [at 3 AM] and get them.  I have serious issues when I'm FORCED into the PVP zones in order to advance my PVE experience (I did it, but I always hated it with a passion and I can't even remember how many times I had to just log out for hours at a time waiting for that stupid sniper to go away so I could continue resource gathering).

So Non-Consensual Open World PVP -- No thanks, I'll find a different game to play and save my money.

[LuxunS]

I appreciate everyone chiming in with their opinions.  It may be over simplified but it seems the main reasons that people don't like the idea of Open World PvP.
Griefing, harassment, and spamming.
Imbalance.  PvPers tend to be min/maxers and non-optimized characters (whether it be power sets or enhancement builds) don't stand much of a chance.  Or one side tends to outnumber the other side again making it so that some players don't stand a chance against superior numbers.
A general dislike of harming other people.

I have an idea for Open PvP that addresses many of these issues and was wondering what the community (particulary those against open PvP) thought about it.
A little history:  More than a decade ago I played Everquest and for a little while there was a feature called Project M.  Project M allowed players to play as a random monster in the world.  They could attack players or other creatures, but could not speak to other players.  I think something like this would be great in CoH.

Ideas for implementation:
Players who opt for MvP (monster vs player) are given control of a random boss creature.  While controlling this boss creature players cannot speak or use emotes.
Rewards: Monster players earn tokens or tickets that are account bound and can be turned in on any regular character to earn experience and influence.  Monster players earn large amounts of this new currency for defeating players and chance for PvP IO, but are also rewarded for being defeated by players.  There should be a timer for the rewards for defeating any individual player to prevent farming.  The rewards for monster players defeating mobs should be greater than player rewards because boss npcs tend to be weaker than player characters.
Area: Monster play only takes place in PvP zones and Hazard zones.  Monsters are always appropriate level for the zone that they are in.  Monsters can not be made stronger by leveling or enhancements, nor can they earn or use inspirations.

Since people who opt to play monsters cannot communicate it reduces their ability to harass players.  Additionally since most boss npcs don't have access to travel powers (at the same speeds as players), players can leave the area or defeat them.  Since monster players are placed in random npc bosses they can't easily return to harass the same player.  Also since they people controlling the bosses haven't created a virtual representation of themselves, pve players shouldn't have as much trepidation when fighting them as they appear as any other creature.  Boss npcs have no inherent advantage against a given player, I'd say they're at a disadvantage.  This evens the playing field for PvE players and gives PvP players a sense of accomplishment if they do manage to defeat a player.

As my understanding goes, the i23 servers will stay as is.  But maybe something like this could be a possibility for APR?

Thoughts?

[Supermax]

In my opinion it was always broken.

I agree. Well, I'd say it had great potential but was very unpolished. It was added to the game as an afterthought, and it was clear that not much time was spent on its development.

But at the same time, I don't think that "you were forced into a handful of chars" is a good argument. Look at every other niche part of the game. Killing AV's solo, tanking multiple AV's at the same time, farming specific mob types, etc. All those things "forced" you to have a special build. You couldn't kill an AV solo with just any random toon/build in the game. You couldn't farm effectively with just any random toon. PvP was just another niche, so I think it's acceptable that not 100% of toons had the same chance of being successful.

[Noyjitat]

I Always thought pvp zones should of just been copies of existing zones. Rather than entirely new zones you choose the pvp version of it from a menu just like you choose atlas park 10 or grandville 14 when that many copies of the zone is spawned due to server population.

Gimmicks that suck for those that don't want to pvp:
attacking enemy guards flags you
accidentally hitting flag players
wondering into enemy camps
wondering into enemy city
having a pet attack any of the above
Having badges or vehicles/pets as exclusive pvp rewards (likewise pvp content should be made for pvpers that dont want to do pve to earn everything)

Having an option "I don't want to pvp" would prevent you from entering these places or doing these actions but so far I've yet to see that in any game.

[Ankhammon]

I agree. Well, I'd say it had great potential but was very unpolished. It was added to the game as an afterthought, and it was clear that not much time was spent on its development.

But at the same time, I don't think that "you were forced into a handful of chars" is a good argument. Look at every other niche part of the game. Killing AV's solo, tanking multiple AV's at the same time, farming specific mob types, etc. All those things "forced" you to have a special build. You couldn't kill an AV solo with just any random toon/build in the game. You couldn't farm effectively with just any random toon. PvP was just another niche, so I think it's acceptable that not 100% of toons had the same chance of being successful.

The problem was that it wasn't 100% couldn't pvp.

It was that there were about 3 or so that were head and shoulders above the field. It was all about burst damage without being seen until the final second.

Fire blasters exceled at this because fire has always had a very strong damage potential combined with the ability to jump it's acc to over 200%. Back in the original pvp, this gave blasters in general and fire/nrg a faulty advantage that should have never been. The only thing to be done was to go into intangible or if you could time it (due to SS + Stealth) to hit the blaster with a mez.

Debuffs did very little to dissuade the situation. And it took about 20 seconds for a defender to put on that kind of damage. So that left them out of the game (except Fortitude buffs). Defenders had an ace in the hole with their intangible powers, but they were the first thing nerfed in pvp.

Tanks could usually survive a single Fire/nrg attack, but usually had to limp off with not a lot of health left over. And melee damage for the most part. Inv/SS thought they had a chance, but they had to get real lucky or pick a fight with a defender or controller.

Controllers had to overbuff themselves with Tactics just to see through invis and that was only at like 50 ft. This left them twirling about like an idiot hoping to spot the enemy before their SS +SJ combo'd enemy hit them in the back. The good ones helped themselves out by picking up /storm so they could have a chance at slowing the other guy down.

That left scrappers and there hope was on the spines/regen scrapper who actually did pretty well particularly due to the dot in spines. Claws was the other choice, but it was lethal damage meaning that it took a few seconds to get through the defenses available to a blaster. 
EDIT: oops, forgot about the immob in spines that caused some substantial trouble since it was in a lot of the set.

It was only later as more sets (and Villains) appeared that there became more options and that led to the era of the Nrg/regen or Nin stalker. Both had a huge advantage with stealth and could creep up on a victim for the Assassin Strike I win button.

These were my remembrances of the first iteration of pvp anyway. Needless to say, I was not much of a fan.

[Kederren]

I agree. Well, I'd say it had great potential but was very unpolished. It was added to the game as an afterthought, and it was clear that not much time was spent on its development.

But at the same time, I don't think that "you were forced into a handful of chars" is a good argument. Look at every other niche part of the game. Killing AV's solo, tanking multiple AV's at the same time, farming specific mob types, etc. All those things "forced" you to have a special build. You couldn't kill an AV solo with just any random toon/build in the game. You couldn't farm effectively with just any random toon. PvP was just another niche, so I think it's acceptable that not 100% of toons had the same chance of being successful.

Agreed, Super. PVP is a niche just like the rest. The thing is, niche farmers, niche AV hunters and the rest had a controlled environment in which to their thing. As long as we are talking about niche PVPers haveing a controlled environment for their thing, I'm fine with it.  When we talk about Open World PVP, then the nichers can impose their gameplay on others who do not want to engage in that niche.

[Stealth Dart]

 :-X

[Flying Code Monkey]

I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

Because jerks, for the most part.  For example, depending on what the game allows ...

The enemy faction may kill/camp your quest NPCs or train giant mobs into the area, leaving you literally unable to make any progress on your PVE missions.  The enemy faction rarely looks for same-size-same-level teams to fight ... instead, many prefer to jump solos going about their PVE gather quests or hunt quests, especially waiting until you're in the middle of a gather operation (in City terms, while you're clicking a glowy).  You can't realistically assemble a team of upper-level characters geared for PVP to watch your back every time you want to advance a few outdoor PVE missions.  You have no reason to believe that the elite people from your own faction will bother to help out.  They've usually got better things to do than patrol your side's lowbie zones, and a very small number of invaders can make life miserable for a large number of less-equipped players, which can create a frustration and hostility toward your game.

Basically, the problem with Open World PVP is that it doesn't remain confined to voluntary, consenting, PVP activities.  It spills over into PVE activity at the expense of those who aren't inclined to participate and who are literally powerless to respond.  It even tends to poison the online interactions of the community (think "care bears").

And yes, PVE mechanics also have a tendency to get compromised by changes made in response to PVP balance concerns.  It also tends to create a superior class of gear that can become the minimum standard that PVE league leaders will accept for admission to trial teams, but you can only get it through grinding PVP zones.  So even if you're only interested in pursuing PVE, you can get gated out of the PVE trials based on gear.  Some people can't afford that time commitment, even if they would otherwise be okay with it.  Others are just not interested or literally not able to play at the necessary level of skill. And even if you find a generous league, the design team may get in the habit of balancing end-game activities in terms of the superior class of gear, so even then you can't really contribute.

Essentially, it's incredibly difficult to effectively blend PVE and PVP in an open world, because of jerk behaviors and the consequences of elite gear.

[Twisted Toon]

My first MMO was a game called The Realm, originally put out by Sierra. For the longest time, it was open PvP everywhere except in the towns. The drawback was, you took one step outside of town, you nearly instantly were jumped by 6 (a full group) players. All of whom were at least 100 levels (max level was 500 at the time) higher than you. Once you lost, usually before you had the chance to do anything, you dropped a random item in your inventory, and lost 5% of your accumulated exp. Depending on your level, you could lose up to 5 levels. That's right, you could actually be reduced in level from defeats.

Fortunately, after Codemasters took over, they added a PvP flag to reduce the instances of being ganked for everything you own. and increased the level cap to 1000. They didn't really do anything about the defeat penalty though. So, yeah, you could lose 50 levels if you were defeated at level 1000.

However, I have noticed that the insta-death gank mentality resides in any game that allows PvP. Even CoH. My Illusion/FF Controller was ganked by 2 Stalkers, and insta-killed, right after I had started a fight with the Arachnoids in an attempt to acquire a Nuke. I don't mind a friendly match now and then. I don't like being ambushed and not even given a snowballs chance in Hades to defend myself. I have played Mechwarrior Online. I had fun, even when I was severely outclassed and outnumbered, while running around in my little Jenner. Although, I wasn't all that fond of the one times the team builder bugged out and pitted me in my 25 ton mech against 8 other mechs, most of whom were 50 tons or more.  :o

[MWRuger]

Luxun$ I appreciate your efforts to make PvP palatable, but I would rather swallow my own tongue. PvP seems to bring out the worst in people and when I am trying to play a hero, that is the exact opposite of what I want.

If APR has it, then I'll stick with I23. If CoT has it, the same.

[MWRuger]

I know this is a little necro. but I just re-read LuxanS idea again and this could actually work. I wouldn't do it, but it would seem to remove most of my objections. But I'm not sure the PvP community would like it that much. While skill of the player would count the selection is pretty random as is power selection. Also since PvE bosses are pretty well designed to be defeated, I'n sure what the dedicated PvPer would get from the experience. Also you would still need to allow people to opt out.

I appreciate everyone chiming in with their opinions.  It may be over simplified but it seems the main reasons that people don't like the idea of Open World PvP.
Griefing, harassment, and spamming.
Imbalance.  PvPers tend to be min/maxers and non-optimized characters (whether it be power sets or enhancement builds) don't stand much of a chance.  Or one side tends to outnumber the other side again making it so that some players don't stand a chance against superior numbers.
A general dislike of harming other people.

I have an idea for Open PvP that addresses many of these issues and was wondering what the community (particulary those against open PvP) thought about it.
A little history:  More than a decade ago I played Everquest and for a little while there was a feature called Project M.  Project M allowed players to play as a random monster in the world.  They could attack players or other creatures, but could not speak to other players.  I think something like this would be great in CoH.

Ideas for implementation:
Players who opt for MvP (monster vs player) are given control of a random boss creature.  While controlling this boss creature players cannot speak or use emotes.
Rewards: Monster players earn tokens or tickets that are account bound and can be turned in on any regular character to earn experience and influence.  Monster players earn large amounts of this new currency for defeating players and chance for PvP IO, but are also rewarded for being defeated by players.  There should be a timer for the rewards for defeating any individual player to prevent farming.  The rewards for monster players defeating mobs should be greater than player rewards because boss npcs tend to be weaker than player characters.
Area: Monster play only takes place in PvP zones and Hazard zones.  Monsters are always appropriate level for the zone that they are in.  Monsters can not be made stronger by leveling or enhancements, nor can they earn or use inspirations.

Since people who opt to play monsters cannot communicate it reduces their ability to harass players.  Additionally since most boss npcs don't have access to travel powers (at the same speeds as players), players can leave the area or defeat them.  Since monster players are placed in random npc bosses they can't easily return to harass the same player.  Also since they people controlling the bosses haven't created a virtual representation of themselves, pve players shouldn't have as much trepidation when fighting them as they appear as any other creature.  Boss npcs have no inherent advantage against a given player, I'd say they're at a disadvantage.  This evens the playing field for PvE players and gives PvP players a sense of accomplishment if they do manage to defeat a player.

As my understanding goes, the i23 servers will stay as is.  But maybe something like this could be a possibility for APR?

Thoughts?

[AmberOfDzu]

I know this is a little necro. but I just re-read LuxanS idea again and this could actually work. I wouldn't do it, but it would seem to remove most of my objections. But I'm not sure the PvP community would like it that much. While skill of the player would count the selection is pretty random as is power selection. Also since PvE bosses are pretty well designed to be defeated, I'n sure what the dedicated PvPer would get from the experience. Also you would still need to allow people to opt out.

*puts thinking cap back on*

Hmm.

Maybe there is a pony in this after all. It's more or less allowing players to control NPCs for short periods; and in this sense, isn't a lot different than having a Dungeon Master control an NPC in a pen-and-paper game, or possess a mob in, say, a Neverwinter Nights 1 module.

It might be fresh and exciting to have a boss, or even a small group of mobs behave more intelligently, and it would largely remove my objections posted earlier in the thread.

In a game designed for this from the bottom up, it could be good. But there would have to be griefing safeguards. For instance, the monster-controller shouldn't be able to make a mission un-completable by hiding away or otherwise perma-avoiding the fight. Or taking the potent powers of an NPC which are balanced for a poor AI and using them with deadly effectiveness using their "NI".

I could see players toggling on a "Permission to use NI as available for group and mission bosses" flag, and other players choosing "Join queue to act as NI for other player's fights." There might even be a system to select or prioritize players for this; perhaps by some sort of after-mission rating.

Definitely some potential here, regardless.

[Ironwolf]

I have several issues with Open PvP in Coh Classic:

1. Debuffs often just flatout don't work. I went in asked a PvP built blaster to attack me, used darkest night, fluffy, Howling Twilight and fear to debuff him - he waltzed up and 2 shotted me like I was standing there naked.

2. Burst damage only need apply.

3. Seperate builds - I don't PvP since Issue 13 because I have no intention of relearning how to use all my powers. They don't work like you use them to play the game and I just don't want to bother having to keep the 2 seperate.

[alphajaybo]

Anyone who's passed through Goldshire knows what I'm talking about.

Goldshire is just the worst :/ Thank god the zones usually dead most of the time now :) As for open world PvP I don't really see it as a problem so long as it was on specific servers that way pvp'ers can enjoy PvP and pve'ers would be able to peacefully enjoy PvE :)

[silvers1]

Been there, done that in WoW on an open pvp server.  Wasn't my idea, but that's where my friends wanted to play.

Personally, I don't like mixing PVE and PVP.  When I'm leveling a character and fighting mobs, I don't want another player ganking me from behind - it's that simple.  Had plenty of that in WoW,  and plenty of level 80sh characters stomping my level 20s.   Some people really get off on PKing, especially when the other player has zero chance.

I've enjoyed PVP in several games - but it has to be by consent and against the same level player for it to be enjoyable.

[GenericHero05]

Was it the PvP concept that led to ED and the limiting of pets?  I've never known the reason as to why that happened.

I had a Fire Controller who I would love to recreate when CoH returns (mostly for sentimental reasons) but to be honest, without the perma-hasten ability and being able to spawn 12 imps, my heart really isn't into it.  I slogged through 32 levels of beatings to get those imps.  When all the nerfing happened, it irked me so bad, I came close to giving up the game.  I know several of my friends did.

[Ironwolf]

Was it the PvP concept that led to ED and the limiting of pets?  I've never known the reason as to why that happened.

I had a Fire Controller who I would love to recreate when CoH returns (mostly for sentimental reasons) but to be honest, without the perma-hasten ability and being able to spawn 12 imps, my heart really isn't into it.  I slogged through 32 levels of beatings to get those imps.  When all the nerfing happened, it irked me so bad, I came close to giving up the game.  I know several of my friends did.

Not directly. ED was to allow Inventions to add crafting to the game and add some depth. The bad thing was the nerfed with ED prior to having Inventions ready - if they had done both it would have been great!