MMO Players Bill of Rights

[Rotten Luck]

We will lead by example.  If Plan Z goes live it would be with the players rights in mind.  From there the Idea would catch on... perhaps slowly.  Not all are like NCsoft some of the producing businesses out there might just come aboard because they can use it as marketing.  "We (insert company name here) Value our customers so as of today we are adopting the Players bill of rights."

[sabbatha251]

I think there would be a good amount of interest for a players bill of rights. Honestly, I am really tired of buying into things that I don't "own". It's a large chunk of change we are investing into a game to have absolutely no say in it. I really would like to see a mmo blackout day where no one plays on an mmo for one day (highly unlikely, I know )just to show corporate who their bread and butter comes from.

[Rotten Luck]

Mah ha ha ha!  They took our servers down so we take them down!  I love it!  It be hard true to get all the MMO players out there in the game sphere to join the movement.  But even a small % of the gamer do agree it be noticed, double so if we can get the news and media outlets to advertise the drive and report on it.

*Company A turns to look at NCsoft* "This is your fault you know.  You just had to kick the hornets nest."

[sabbatha251]

It's an idea I've been kicking around for a while. You're right though we only need a small precentage to do it. Just really want to be able as a customer to buy something with out the worry of it shutting down a couple months later.

[Colette]

" *Company A turns to look at NCsoft* 'This is your fault you know.'"

Ooohh... now we're talking! That would really put NC Softcore's practices in the limelight.

[JaguarX]

Mah ha ha ha!  They took our servers down so we take them down!  I love it!  It be hard true to get all the MMO players out there in the game sphere to join the movement.  But even a small % of the gamer do agree it be noticed, double so if we can get the news and media outlets to advertise the drive and report on it.

*Company A turns to look at NCsoft* "This is your fault you know.  You just had to kick the hornets nest."

yea, notice by the media would be good. Yet, the pessy side of me say that they may not touch something like this when you still have real life people and jobs where they dont have these kind of rights and boss can come in and hand them a two week notice and tell them to clean out the desk. Would be odd to see a story about how players been jerked around by a company that killed their game and demand rights when some people's lively hood dont even have that protection.

I might be looking waaaay tooooo deep into this and causing me to miss the entire point. If I am, please let me know so I can focus. My mind tends to do that.

[Rotten Luck]

yea, notice by the media would be good. Yet, the pessy side of me say that they may not touch something like this when you still have real life people and jobs where they dont have these kind of rights and boss can come in and hand them a two week notice and tell them to clean out the desk. Would be odd to see a story about how players been jerked around by a company that killed their game and demand rights when some people's lively hood dont even have that protection.

I might be looking waaaay tooooo deep into this and causing me to miss the entire point. If I am, please let me know so I can focus. My mind tends to do that.

That true but also there are people that sue over a Wrongful firing.  It's not a Point and fire kind of thing anymore.  People have taken companies to court over being fired out of the blue.  Face it if NCsoft could have done that the whole FAKE a quitting letter wouldn't been needed.

In another way we lease the use of the game.  Like a Car we pay a monthly payment, but a car lease is contract driven as long as you pay x amount you can use the car for x amount of time.  During this time you don't expect the Car manufacture/owner come and replace the seats or do any major changes to the car. 

In non MMO games we get the same thing you don't expect Ford to come and replace parts of the car you buy.  But now this can happen in games with a Patch that could change how the game operates.

[QuantumHero]

I think we are getting a tiny bit derailed with focus on changed to a game versus making the game cease to function at all.  I'm not saying ad hoc changes are good...but every new coh issue was a patch, bug fixes come in patches also...there are also bad patches out there....and patches have been rolled-back.   There are games in which you can take and refuse patches (for example Sims) but any game that involves co-op or competitive play requires everyone to have pretty much the same software to functon properly.  There are a number of games that do have the ability to operate in two modes, one for your personal use and one while teamed with others....and many, many games with very active, and even encouraged,modding communities. (Half life, never winter nights, sims, etc).  There are aso many older games that are designed to and legal opperate on private servers,

MMOs are a new beast and somewhere along the way the concept got twisted by some of these companies.

Half of the game purchased is  stored on servers for two and only two reasons...to make it easier for devs to manage and update the product and so consumers don't need enormous resources/ performance is better....and when a developer is done maintaining or updating that product then their "service add-on for subscription" has ended.

At that point...they have one responsibility and one responsibility only...to leave their players with a functioning product or allow another entity to do so.  Product is a functioning game that we bought with our disks, subscription fees allowed us updates, devs, maintenance. servers, tech support. 

A company can accomplish this goal by selling a server module, they can even sell a devl
 module, for those who have not already purchased disks/digital downloads once they would be reasonable to sell them COH: "Sunrise" for a small and rational fee...let's say 19.99 to put anumber out there which performs the transition to a functioning new format and points all clients to options that will continue functioning.

After that the IP holder may continue to release "sunrise" and tool kits fo a fee, or give it to god old games, or free to the community.

Finally once no longer running the servers or updating they may at any time release additiona paid or free content...which the private servers or client based games can choose whether to aquire.

They can still release a sequal or a console game, or any other use of the IP.

They could technically set *some* limits on further developmnt and/or modding but with nothng being developed by them...they hve effectively abandoned the field and it is effectively fan fic.

[JaguarX]

That true but also there are people that sue over a Wrongful firing.  It's not a Point and fire kind of thing anymore.  People have taken companies to court over being fired out of the blue.  Face it if NCsoft could have done that the whole FAKE a quitting letter wouldn't been needed.

In another way we lease the use of the game.  Like a Car we pay a monthly payment, but a car lease is contract driven as long as you pay x amount you can use the car for x amount of time.  During this time you don't expect the Car manufacture/owner come and replace the seats or do any major changes to the car. 

In non MMO games we get the same thing you don't expect Ford to come and replace parts of the car you buy.  But now this can happen in games with a Patch that could change how the game operates.

yes true. The point I'm getting at is that it might be hard to get media attention about the plight of gamers losing their virtual home because a company wanted to cut back while people lose their jobs everyday for that same reason. Especially with unemployment being a big issue now, some of them laid off because of cutbacks just like this game, according to offical statement from NCSoft, is due to cut backs and streamlining.

Think an actual lease contract like thing would work for online MMOs? That is without making game the game makers turtle shell and stop releasing games and or aim for only sure bets, like more WoW clones? Then when the contract ends, it can be reviewed and decide to whether to continue or leave it alone? That is one way to ensure that games just dont end all of a sudden but then the wrench i nthe gears with my statement is suppose the game tanks in the middle of the contract? Would game makers feel it is worth the risk? If they have to eat the cost of the loss would it damage the company and or hinder the release of new games, updates and stuff?

I cant think of  a way that would theorectically protect the customer while making sure game makers will find the risk worth taking and not turtle shell.

[Rotten Luck]

yes true. The point I'm getting at is that it might be hard to get media attention about the plight of gamers losing their virtual home because a company wanted to cut back while people lose their jobs everyday for that same reason. Especially with unemployment being a big issue now, some of them laid off because of cutbacks just like this game, according to offical statement from NCSoft, is due to cut backs and streamlining.

Think an actual lease contract like thing would work for online MMOs? That is without making game the game makers turtle shell and stop releasing games and or aim for only sure bets, like more WoW clones? Then when the contract ends, it can be reviewed and decide to whether to continue or leave it alone? That is one way to ensure that games just dont end all of a sudden but then the wrench i nthe gears with my statement is suppose the game tanks in the middle of the contract? Would game makers feel it is worth the risk? If they have to eat the cost of the loss would it damage the company and or hinder the release of new games, updates and stuff?

I cant think of  a way that would theorectically protect the customer while making sure game makers will find the risk worth taking and not turtle shell.

In a lease if you don't pay it's considered your braking the contract.  Then the Item/car/shop can be taken away.  So if a game goes red as in not bring in enough funds to cover cost of operations the company has the right then to pull the plug.  However a lease like system say it's renewed every 5 years, If the company don't want to renew have a clause that they should Publicly try to sell (Announce that it for sale).  This is kin to a Mortgage company selling a Mortgage to another company (yeah that went bad but depending on legal jargon could work.)  Perhaps a section that if no sellers buy said lease it goes open source and could then be ran on private servers.

[JaguarX]

In a lease if you don't pay it's considered your braking the contract.  Then the Item/car/shop can be taken away.  So if a game goes red as in not bring in enough funds to cover cost of operations the company has the right then to pull the plug.  However a lease like system say it's renewed every 5 years, If the company don't want to renew have a clause that they should Publicly try to sell (Announce that it for sale).  This is kin to a Mortgage company selling a Mortgage to another company (yeah that went bad but depending on legal jargon could work.)  Perhaps a section that if no sellers buy said lease it goes open source and could then be ran on private servers.

yeah, that's more like it. But I think the last part may be the part that may scare game builders. They may view it as losing a property because they couldnt sell it, like a house that is up for sale going to the public because it couldnt sell. They may not feel the risk is worth it. Although, maybe the MMO market needs a little thinning out but when it's thinned out, dont want it to die either from there because no game maker feel the risk is worth taking and rather not make new games leaving only giants running the place or giant in this case.

[Rotten Luck]

True the last part could be cut out.  I'm think from terms of someone that had been on the bad end of the housing market bubble bursting.  Now I'm feeling an echo of that trouble in here I'm loosing a second home because of a Companies poor choices... AGAIN!

I was kind of thinking of a cities Blight laws.  Where if a building is left unused it can be taken by the city and sold. 

But the Lease system does seem to fit a MMO's operation.  The player Pays (or uses micro transactions) to pay for the lease if they fail to keep it in a profit (Black) then they are risking game termination.  The company has a right every 5 years or so to reevaluate the game and how to handle the lease.  They should announce selling of the lease publicly if they don't want to handle the game IP any longer.  (One of the issues we have against NCsoft is the tight lip and refusing to speak to anyone even willing to make an offer to buy).  By the public announcement rules they make a Minimal sale price.  Much like selling a House you have the amount you want and negotiate with a buyer the idea other Buyers compete for the property driving the sale price higher.  So a public announcement would be in a Company's best interest.

Again this is a leymans term thinking I'm sure a Legal skilled person could rework this idea.

[JaguarX]

True the last part could be cut out.  I'm think from terms of someone that had been on the bad end of the housing market bubble bursting.  Now I'm feeling an echo of that trouble in here I'm loosing a second home because of a Companies poor choices... AGAIN!

I was kind of thinking of a cities Blight laws.  Where if a building is left unused it can be taken by the city and sold. 

But the Lease system does seem to fit a MMO's operation.  The player Pays (or uses micro transactions) to pay for the lease if they fail to keep it in a profit (Black) then they are risking game termination.  The company has a right every 5 years or so to reevaluate the game and how to handle the lease.  They should announce selling of the lease publicly if they don't want to handle the game IP any longer.  (One of the issues we have against NCsoft is the tight lip and refusing to speak to anyone even willing to make an offer to buy).  By the public announcement rules they make a Minimal sale price.  Much like selling a House you have the amount you want and negotiate with a buyer the idea other Buyers compete for the property driving the sale price higher.  So a public announcement would be in a Company's best interest.

Again this is a leymans term thinking I'm sure a Legal skilled person could rework this idea.

yeah, I thought real estate laws were complicated but corporate law make real estate law look like a coloring book.

[dwturducken]

Back up a few posts.  Maybe that MMO black out deserves its own thread.  We have just under six weeks. Do we think we can get enough support from the greater MMO community to convince a noticeable percentage of our fellow gamers to play no MMOs on Saturday, December 1st?

[Rotten Luck]

To get multiple MMO force I don't think so.  Plus the black out is more for the MMO Bill of rights and not saving City of Heroes.  It's more to keep it happening to someone else.

To organize a Multi game protest going to take a tad more organization with in our own order.  Most of that now focused on Plan Z.  I believe that we will be using the Players Bill of Rights as our Policy.  Let that be our decoration of independence of the established order.

[Colette]

I'm sure there are several game companies that would agree these rules are in their enlightened self-interest. Firaxis, for example, I understand have a pretty good record.

"...how about us fighting to improve the rights of those in the industry themselves, where at a moments notice they can find themselves axed and out of a job rather fast."

I've actually worked in the Computer Game industry. What you're talking about is a Union. My current employment is heavily unionized, and why such a heavily educated, specialized and highly-paid profession as computer programmers do not have a union baffles me. Unionizing programmers and related professions would, I think, be worthwhile. It's also something they would need to do, with the full understanding that their initial organizers would likely find themselves blacklisted by the business owners.

(This is not an invitation for pro and anti union activists to launch a huge off-topic debate. Thanks.)

[Segev]

I hope everyone here has read Olantern's post on why a "Player's Bill of Rights" sort of thing is not a healthy thing for a company to make as any sort of official statement, let alone promise. Some of the clauses in this one look like things that could get any effort to make a spiritual successor to CoH shut down forever within weeks of going live. All it would take is, say, Somebody with a desire to see it shut down, who maliciously buys in at a VIP level, and then just starts making unreasonable demands/claims based on said Bill. Twisting its words around and violating its spirit to bring plausible suit with mysteriously large bags of money for their lawyers. It would be enough to bury a fledgling little studio without the studio even having enough money to last long enough for the trial date to be set.

[Rotten Luck]

Wanting A bill of rights is not the same as wanting THIS bill of rights.

In other words we need some rewriting and beta testing of the ideas before we put it out, there are flaws in the proposed rights yes.  Does this mean the basic idea is flawed no.

[Ponderer]

I hope everyone here has read Olantern's post on why a "Player's Bill of Rights" sort of thing is not a healthy thing for a company to make as any sort of official statement, let alone promise. Some of the clauses in this one look like things that could get any effort to make a spiritual successor to CoH shut down forever within weeks of going live. All it would take is, say, Somebody with a desire to see it shut down, who maliciously buys in at a VIP level, and then just starts making unreasonable demands/claims based on said Bill. Twisting its words around and violating its spirit to bring plausible suit with mysteriously large bags of money for their lawyers. It would be enough to bury a fledgling little studio without the studio even having enough money to last long enough for the trial date to be set.

I think this misses the point of crafting this.  A player's bill of rights should be something that players assert.  It's not about having a company sign on a dotted line, these aren't hard and fast rules that can be quantified moment to moment.  "Good customer service" is subjective, for instance, and what is fine for some may be unacceptable for others.

Someone buying at the VIP level and making unreasonable demands isn't relevant.  They won't be taken seriously because they aren't reasonable.  If we have general ideas that we all agree upon, then we can act in defense of those ideas.  Let's take an example, 'providing good content'.  Let's say everyone generally agrees that providing reasonable and meaningful updates is important.  Then, with the company seeming to make large profits, they cut their development staff in half.

If the players got together and said 'hey, there's no reason to fire these guys, it will slow down our updates and give us less value for our money.  We are asking people to email them and tell them that because of this action we're having a blackout on this day.  If we want to be taken seriously, make sure you observe the blackout.  Letters matter more if you can mail them physically.  If they haven't rehired, we'll discuss letting subscriptions lapse or other possibilities."

The way I see it, the idea here isn't some kind of binding contract, the idea is to have an active community movement to defend the growth and longevity of your gaming experience.

Edit - Just peeked over there, and Olantern seems to agree with me.

So, if there's a bottom line here, it's that I think things like bills of rights are fine, as long as they remain a player-generated endeavor.  (I might take issue with some terms of some that I've seen, but the principle is sound.)

[Segev]

Exactly, Ponderer. I was writing in response to the tone of "this is how Plan Z should operate and should adopt something like this" that I saw arising.