Author Topic: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?  (Read 18064 times)

Pherdnut

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So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« on: June 29, 2013, 05:00:33 PM »
I get that the IP is and probably always be NCSoft's until they die a well-deserved death and get strip-mined for property rights. But since they're no longer offering the service are there any real legal barriers to decompiling and reverse engineering the game client for non-profit purposes?

Arachnion

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 05:14:54 PM »
In my opinion, that EULA died the moment they shut off the servers.

I'm not very good with legal matters, though.

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 05:29:25 PM »
I don't have a copy in front of me, but technically, when NCsoft canceled the contract, I think that you were supposed to remove the software from your computer.

JaguarX

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 05:41:57 PM »
I get that the IP is and probably always be NCSoft's until they die a well-deserved death and get strip-mined for property rights. But since they're no longer offering the service are there any real legal barriers to decompiling and reverse engineering the game client for non-profit purposes?
non-profit though, you should havea look at the legal definition of non-profit. Just because you make something and doesnt make any any money from it doesnt mean it's legally non-profit. Out of all things that isnt clear that part is pretty clear in copyright laws.

IP laws, trademark laws and copyright laws are different than EULA. SOme of that stuff is covered in the EULA, and then there are some stuff that is in use only while using the product. But IP, trademark, copyright laws dont die with the EULA.

BUt the EULA can make a difference if boils down. If you have the game and played, especially for years as many claimed than it would be hard to say that you didnt know it didnt apply and or it was and agreed to not copy it or violate the copright trademark and IP laws especially if it was stated in the EULA, which can work against ya.



Did anyone just bother to call NCsoft and simply ask them to use their stuff? It's long shot but as been said with just about everything here, never know if no one tried or tries.

Pherdnut

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2013, 06:02:09 PM »
I don't think there's a conversation worth having with NCSoft. I'd rather they remain unaware there's even an interest lest they start spamming C&Ds for everything imaginable just because they don't want to look as stupid as they are for tossing a profit-making fanbase out on its ass and refusing anyone else the option to serve us. Edit: Read some other posts on the lack of viability trying to do anything meaningful with decompiled C. Thx for the info. I actually came up as a JS dev but C and assembly interest me a lot.

JaguarX

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2013, 06:13:07 PM »
I don't think there's a conversation worth having with NCSoft. I'd rather they remain unaware there's even an interest lest they start spamming C&Ds for everything imaginable just because they don't want to look as stupid as they are for tossing a profit-making fanbase out on its ass and refusing anyone else the option to serve us. Edit: Read some other posts on the lack of viability trying to do anything meaningful with decompiled C. Thx for the info. I actually came up as a JS dev but C and assembly interest me a lot.

Just saying. yeah maybe better not to ask in that case because then it may make it worse


It would seem bright to at least for these people that are building these things to at least know these laws or at least get a good lawyer to advise them before going through all this trouble building it and end up getting shut down because they violated stuff. WHy even risk it if the laws are written and all it takes is reading them. (Sarcasm) Oh right, most people couldnt even be bothered with reading a relatively short EULA. Ya think they are actually goign to read the laws they need to know instead of always guessing?)
Like if I play an emulator under the guise "Oh yeah it's perfectly legal and NCSoft cant toucvh us." and it end up getting shut down because they violated laws, I aint going to be mad at NCSoft I'm going to be pissed at the emulator runner. And if I get tangled in breaking of said law or if it affect me in any manner in my life, I will not hesisitate to sue the dog shit out of them if they give out false pretenses of them being legally safe when come to find out they have not a bloody clue and was playing Russian Roulette the entire time.

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2013, 06:17:24 PM »
I don't have a copy in front of me, but technically, when NCsoft canceled the contract, I think that you were supposed to remove the software from your computer.

nah, if that were the case they would have done one more 'mandatory' update after the shut-down which removes all CoH files on your computer.

also technically due to the wording of the document it's a ToS not an EULA

in order be an EULA it would have to subject itself to legalities, as such it wouldn't be able to claim anything outside of the written international and national laws of the region(s) in which it was doing business.

a ToS is a Terms of Service, I've seen some ToS that say wild things (and I don't joke) "by clicking accept you agree to sell your soul to this website" a ToS does not follow legal laws necessarily, it attempts to create it's own laws.

an EULA is much different in composition as it merely states the legal articles that you are required to follow. and to what extent those legal articles effect your experience as a user.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 06:26:43 PM by Joshex »
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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 06:59:06 PM »
I don't have a copy in front of me, but technically, when NCsoft canceled the contract, I think that you were supposed to remove the software from your computer.

You should get a copy of it in front of you: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/EULA/September_2011

The document conveniently omits any mention of what happens if NCsoft can't keep the game going. It's all "you agree NCsoft can do this" and "you agree NCsoft can do that", but there's a somewhat humorous lack of foresight for what happens if NCsoft has to change how things transpire.

Having said that...

also technically due to the wording of the document it's a ToS not an EULA

It is terms of service, and it does define the scope of the license. "License" here referring to NCsoft giving us permission to use the software and service. It basically says in section 2 that "you're automatically given permission, but only if you accept the terms in this document!"

In other words, it's not a legally-binding contract.

Combined with the facts that A) no payment was ever made to use the software and B) clicking the "I Agree" button never saved any record of acknowledgement, it's impossible for NCsoft to even attempt to enforce the license since it's impossible to know that it was ever even granted. And this is aside the whole "is there really such a thing as license enforcement" side of the issue.

But since they're no longer offering the service are there any real legal barriers to decompiling and reverse engineering the game client for non-profit purposes?

As stated above, "violating" the City of Heroes user agreement is not illegal. There is also precedent in the United States--Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd.--which concluded that reverse engineering, and even selling the product of that reverse engineering, does not constitute an infringement of copyright.

So by all means, go nuts. Give NCsoft the double deuce. There's nothing they can do about it.

JaguarX

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 07:04:02 PM »


As stated above, "violating" the City of Heroes user agreement is not illegal. There is also precedent in the United States--Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd.--which concluded that reverse engineering, and even selling the product of that reverse engineering, does not constitute an infringement of copyright.

So by all means, go nuts. Give NCsoft the double deuce. There's nothing they can do about it.

But here were also cases stating the opposite.

I guess it boils down to the court and what the particular judge says.

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2013, 07:13:06 PM »
But here were also cases stating the opposite.

[citation needed]

JaguarX

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2013, 07:22:38 PM »
[citation needed]

I think I made these citations in another thread abotu the same subject not long ago. Give me a few minutes I'll find it.

Funny how you missed them and require reposting of them.

JaguarX

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 07:59:36 PM by JaguarX »

Kyriani

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2013, 08:46:07 PM »
Someone just get the client working solo... and then give me a copy! I promise I wont say word about where I got it!

GuyPerfect

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2013, 09:11:03 PM »
Funny how you missed them and require reposting of them.

If I tried to follow every thread that appeared on the board, I'd still be catching up to stuff that was posted in March. (-:


Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.
This was the case in which Nintendo sued Galoob over the Game Genie, claiming the device was an infringement of copyright. This is very similar to Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd., in which Quaid circumvented Vault's copy protection through reverse engineering. In both cases, the courts decided in favor of the defendants, establishing that reverse engineering does not constitute infringement of copyright.

It's worth noting that circumventing copy protection, as of 1998's Digital Millennium Copyright Act, is now illegal, but that applies to digital rights management specifically. Reverse engineering in and of itself was unaffected by the decision.


MGM Studios, Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd.
In this case, MGM and their posse of media companies took to peer-to-peer file sharing networks, insisting that those networks themselves be held responsible for any infringing acts of its users. The court decided that such networks can be held liable for the actions of its users, but only if the infringing activity is encouraged by the network. This is, to a T, precisely what happened to Megaupload last year. You couldn't ask for a more perfect example of what the MGM-Grokster case was about.

I don't think anyone is arguing that distributing copyrighted works isn't illegal. As it pertains to City of Heroes, the issue involves reverse engineering, not content distribution.


Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Association Inc. v. Lexmark International Inc.
Wikipedia's page on this case misses the mark; click the above link for the actual opinion. "Opening the box" doesn't really have anything to do with the lawsuit.

ACRA made all of its money refurbishing used printer cartridges, while Lexmark historically only made its money selling printers and new cartridges. That changed in 1997, when Lexmark began selling new cartridges under their so-called "Prebate" program, where customers would receive a discount for the cartridge purchase under the condition that they would return the empty cartridge to Lexmark for refurbishing. This was extraordinarily beneficial to Lexmark's business, and the long and short of it is that ACRA didn't want the competition, so they sued Lexmark saying that their actions were in violation of California's competition laws. The court ruled in favor of the defendant, stating (and I might be paraphrasing this a bit) "ACRA hasn't provided jack beans worth of evidence to support its claims."

I, um... I don't think I'll be returning my used City of Heroes to NCsoft for refurbishing.


Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes
The defendants of this case, who were not big-money-making figureheads or anything, were sued for promoting the use and distribution of DeCSS--software which decrypts DVD videos, an activity prohibited by the DMCA. The court ruled in favor of the plaintiff citing the DMCA, which of course raised controversy on the grounds of violating freedom of speech.

In other words, circumventing copy protection under the DMCA is illegal for real. City of Heroes doesn't have any copy protection.


A & M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc.
This one was all over the news because it was the first big event surrounding the legal issues behind file sharing. Since Napster's servers were presented in such a way as to provide accommodations for its users to commit copyright infringement (song listings, etc.), the court ruled that Napster itself could be held liable for any acts of infringement committed by its users. This takes a similar tone to what later happened with the MGM-Grokster case, as it boiled down to whether or not the network was encouraging its users to commit copyright infringement.

Reverse engineering City of Heroes still isn't related to distributing City of Heroes game content. To clarify, the precursor to SEGS found themselves with a cease-and-desist order from NCsoft on the grounds of content distribution, but not for reverse engineering the software.


UMG v. MP3.com - (Alternate source)
Don't you love lawyer language? This case is all about semantics. Basically what MP3.com was doing was allowing users to upload their legally-purchased CDs to MP3.com, as MP3s, which they could then download elsewhere. The court ruled that MP3.com was guilty of copyright infringement on the grounds of the fact that it was making a "functionally equivalent" copy of the user's CDs, converting them to some other format, then redistributing that copy without authorization.

Again, this is content distribution, not reverse engineering.


Applied Info. Mgmt., Inc, v. Icart
This one was quite a convoluted case. Basically what happened was that Applied Information Management, Inc. (AIM) entered an agreement with Brownstone Agency, Inc. (an insurance broker) in which AIM would provide computer hardware, software and support to Brownstone. After several years, Brownstone terminated the agreement. In the middle of it all, AIM hired developer Daniel Icart, trained him in the underlying architecture of their software, and then Icart later went on to work for Brownstone and upgraded Brownstone's AIM software using what he'd learned at AIM. The reason it was an issue is because Brownstone was under the impression that the software was being sold by AIM, while AIM contests that the software was merely licensed. AIM's argument was that Brownstone was guilty of copyright infringement while Icart was guilty of "misappropriation of trade secrets" among other things. The case was dismissed because it couldn't be proven one way or another that either side was correct.

If we can take anything away from this, it's that software purchases versus licenses is something to bear in mind, but in cases where there's no paper trail, enforcement may be difficult if at all possible. For City of Heroes, our licenses have no paper trails, so I would put it into the "don't worry about it" category. Heck, for years it was possible to play the game while bypassing the user agreement altogether.


MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc.
This one's kind of funny. The gist of it is that Peak Computer, Inc., an IT support company, did unthinkable acts of copyright violation with MAI software: 1) they made copies of the MAI operating system in computer RAM by way of turning on the computers, and 2) they ran MAI diagnostic software despite not being a licensee. The court astonishingly ruled in favor of the plaintiff, but then Congress turned around and amended Title 17 (aka the Copyright Act) in order to make a provision in response to this exact case.

So the moral of the story is, it's legal to make copies of software in RAM in order to use that software, since that's exactly how your computer runs software. Way to go, legal system!

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2013, 09:17:59 PM »
I don't have a copy in front of me, but technically, when NCsoft canceled the contract, I think that you were supposed to remove the software from your computer.

I did.  The moment NC$oft shut the servers down, I uninstalled their launcher.   ;D

*whistles and mentions under his breath*
And as far as the 'Eula' goes, it was never really effective when you could replace it with your own 'Eula' during the game's start-up to say whatever it is you wanted it to say.

JaguarX

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2013, 10:04:10 PM »
If I tried to follow every thread that appeared on the board, I'd still be catching up to stuff that was posted in March. (-:


Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.
This was the case in which Nintendo sued Galoob over the Game Genie, claiming the device was an infringement of copyright. This is very similar to Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd., in which Quaid circumvented Vault's copy protection through reverse engineering. In both cases, the courts decided in favor of the defendants, establishing that reverse engineering does not constitute infringement of copyright.

It's worth noting that circumventing copy protection, as of 1998's Digital Millennium Copyright Act, is now illegal, but that applies to digital rights management specifically. Reverse engineering in and of itself was unaffected by the decision.


MGM Studios, Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd.
In this case, MGM and their posse of media companies took to peer-to-peer file sharing networks, insisting that those networks themselves be held responsible for any infringing acts of its users. The court decided that such networks can be held liable for the actions of its users, but only if the infringing activity is encouraged by the network. This is, to a T, precisely what happened to Megaupload last year. You couldn't ask for a more perfect example of what the MGM-Grokster case was about.

I don't think anyone is arguing that distributing copyrighted works isn't illegal. As it pertains to City of Heroes, the issue involves reverse engineering, not content distribution.


Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Association Inc. v. Lexmark International Inc.
Wikipedia's page on this case misses the mark; click the above link for the actual opinion. "Opening the box" doesn't really have anything to do with the lawsuit.

ACRA made all of its money refurbishing used printer cartridges, while Lexmark historically only made its money selling printers and new cartridges. That changed in 1997, when Lexmark began selling new cartridges under their so-called "Prebate" program, where customers would receive a discount for the cartridge purchase under the condition that they would return the empty cartridge to Lexmark for refurbishing. This was extraordinarily beneficial to Lexmark's business, and the long and short of it is that ACRA didn't want the competition, so they sued Lexmark saying that their actions were in violation of California's competition laws. The court ruled in favor of the defendant, stating (and I might be paraphrasing this a bit) "ACRA hasn't provided jack beans worth of evidence to support its claims."

I, um... I don't think I'll be returning my used City of Heroes to NCsoft for refurbishing.


Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes
The defendants of this case, who were not big-money-making figureheads or anything, were sued for promoting the use and distribution of DeCSS--software which decrypts DVD videos, an activity prohibited by the DMCA. The court ruled in favor of the plaintiff citing the DMCA, which of course raised controversy on the grounds of violating freedom of speech.

In other words, circumventing copy protection under the DMCA is illegal for real. City of Heroes doesn't have any copy protection.


A & M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc.
This one was all over the news because it was the first big event surrounding the legal issues behind file sharing. Since Napster's servers were presented in such a way as to provide accommodations for its users to commit copyright infringement (song listings, etc.), the court ruled that Napster itself could be held liable for any acts of infringement committed by its users. This takes a similar tone to what later happened with the MGM-Grokster case, as it boiled down to whether or not the network was encouraging its users to commit copyright infringement.

Reverse engineering City of Heroes still isn't related to distributing City of Heroes game content. To clarify, the precursor to SEGS found themselves with a cease-and-desist order from NCsoft on the grounds of content distribution, but not for reverse engineering the software.


UMG v. MP3.com - (Alternate source)
Don't you love lawyer language? This case is all about semantics. Basically what MP3.com was doing was allowing users to upload their legally-purchased CDs to MP3.com, as MP3s, which they could then download elsewhere. The court ruled that MP3.com was guilty of copyright infringement on the grounds of the fact that it was making a "functionally equivalent" copy of the user's CDs, converting them to some other format, then redistributing that copy without authorization.

Again, this is content distribution, not reverse engineering.


Applied Info. Mgmt., Inc, v. Icart
This one was quite a convoluted case. Basically what happened was that Applied Information Management, Inc. (AIM) entered an agreement with Brownstone Agency, Inc. (an insurance broker) in which AIM would provide computer hardware, software and support to Brownstone. After several years, Brownstone terminated the agreement. In the middle of it all, AIM hired developer Daniel Icart, trained him in the underlying architecture of their software, and then Icart later went on to work for Brownstone and upgraded Brownstone's AIM software using what he'd learned at AIM. The reason it was an issue is because Brownstone was under the impression that the software was being sold by AIM, while AIM contests that the software was merely licensed. AIM's argument was that Brownstone was guilty of copyright infringement while Icart was guilty of "misappropriation of trade secrets" among other things. The case was dismissed because it couldn't be proven one way or another that either side was correct.

If we can take anything away from this, it's that software purchases versus licenses is something to bear in mind, but in cases where there's no paper trail, enforcement may be difficult if at all possible. For City of Heroes, our licenses have no paper trails, so I would put it into the "don't worry about it" category. Heck, for years it was possible to play the game while bypassing the user agreement altogether.


MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc.
This one's kind of funny. The gist of it is that Peak Computer, Inc., an IT support company, did unthinkable acts of copyright violation with MAI software: 1) they made copies of the MAI operating system in computer RAM by way of turning on the computers, and 2) they ran MAI diagnostic software despite not being a licensee. The court astonishingly ruled in favor of the plaintiff, but then Congress turned around and amended Title 17 (aka the Copyright Act) in order to make a provision in response to this exact case.

So the moral of the story is, it's legal to make copies of software in RAM in order to use that software, since that's exactly how your computer runs software. Way to go, legal system!


So basically, is there any cases at all that deal directly with MMO games and private servers? Because really even the case you posrted had nothing to do with games or even in the same league or issue at hand here with private servers and if someone listen to you and just go at it without thining they could find themselves in legal trouble.

Even if someone makes ap rivate server for their own use, fro mwhat I gather that is ok but as long as the ydont distribute. Meaning then unless the person is making ap rivate server for themselves to play, basically makign a solo game for themselves only, meanign they cant distribute or use that software to allow others to play it, aka public use.Which is what many people talking about private servers are talking about doing. And even you said so yourself, C&D on content distribution not the fact they would have made it for themselves, which is what it seems, distribute, is what is said that many that are plan on reverse engineering private server or what ever term they want to assign to convince themselves they are perfectly within the law, is plan on doing.

But like I said, if it's all perfectly with no question legal, then why the secrecty why the fright that NCSoft might find out, why hiding? From what I gather, because they dont know themselves and pick cases that nearly irrelevant and ignore cases to the contrary to convince themselves it is right. I guess at this point all we can do is wait and see. Start up a private server distribute it as planned and see what happens. Then maybe we'll finally have a case that deals with it directly. And if the other C&D of the the other games were improper the private servers of the other games that is, then there is a law against that and someone should be suing NCSoft right now as we speak since they cannot shut down nor issue C&D for something perfectly legal.  Lenz v. Universal Music Corp.

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 10:19:06 PM »
I don't think there's a conversation worth having with NCSoft.

Unless it's to whisper "no".
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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2013, 11:12:55 PM »
Unless it's to whisper "no".

Nice.  Go Rorschach!

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2013, 12:20:08 AM »
So basically, is there any cases at all that deal directly with MMO games and private servers? Because really even the case you posrted had nothing to do with games or even in the same league or issue at hand here with private servers and if someone listen to you and just go at it without thining they could find themselves in legal trouble.

There doesn't have to be a prior incident of any specific thing just to figure out if any criminal activity has occurred. Has there ever been a case involving a private MMO server? I bet there has, but none come to mind. But even if there hasn't, we wouldn't have to consult it to determine what is and is not legal behavior. That's what laws are for, at least in theory.

The case I referenced, as well as the one you referenced with Nintendo and Galoob, both refer to reverse engineering, and in both cases it was decided that reverse engineering is legal, even in a commercial context.


Even if someone makes ap rivate server for their own use, fro mwhat I gather that is ok but as long as the ydont distribute.

To an extent, this is correct. The software itself would be perfectly legal to distribute; it's NCsoft's copyrighted content that could not be distributed. This includes story content for sure, as well as signature characters, but I haven't given an in-depth analysis of exactly what could and could not be distributed with custom server software.


But like I said, if it's all perfectly with no question legal, then why the secrecty why the fright that NCSoft might find out, why hiding?

The C&D that NCsoft sent to SEGS (or whatever SEGS was called at the time) was 100% bogus. SEGS was not distributing NCsoft's copyrighted content, but NCsoft said frightening things to the ISP anyway about content this and distribution that. This happens all the time, where a company with enough money to follow through with a lawsuit goes after the little guy just to shut him up. I know I wouldn't have the resources to defend such a project if a company sent me a C&D, even if what I was doing was perfectly legal.

NCsoft has already demonstrated a willingness to behave this way, and we've already shown them that they can get away with it. That's why no server development has surfaced to the public.

Pherdnut

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Re: So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2013, 12:44:13 AM »
Wow. Nice detail. Thanks guys.

I've decided however that there's a simpler iron-clad legal defense:

http://cityofheroes.com/en/sunset.php

They told us to "fly free."

Certainly they realize we can't fly in RL, so they could only be talking about in their client. In order to do that, we'd have to hack it. And they directed this communication to the community at large, so technically they were saying "fly free as a community." So if we hack the client and write a new server we're just following instructions really.

 ;D