So is COH finally dead?

[Lycantropus]

I have to agree with TonyV here. Nobody *had* to put in any effort at all after our City was closed to us; we could have all just said "well that's it!" and found new games, or like others putting down their efforts now with phrases like 'too hard' 'too much work' 'take too long'... I'm sure a LOT of folks have.

I really appreciate any and all efforts folks have made, whether it was going through the time and effort organizing events and pitches to save, then later revive it, down to those who just contributed what they could to those efforts. I appreciate Codewalker, Leandro, and so many others who are plugging away at their keyboards for hours (with no pay, just for the love of it mind you) to help us back into our City in whatever ways they can, even moreso for SHARING their efforts with all of us. I appreciate TonyV, and Golden Girl, and any other folks putting in efforts to re-create what we loved so much about our City. I don't post a ton, tending to lurk, and I don't agree with everyone's take on things, but I have seen a lot of effort and passion on these boards for the past year for something we all loved, and after many proclamations of its death...

*deep breath*

...we're still here, and in many ways (and more all the time because of the above efforts) so is our City. Don't ask us if it's dead. That's something you're going to have to answer in your own heart at this point, and if the answer for you is 'yes' then why are *you* still here?

Now, because this is the internet, I'm going to clarify that. I'm not saying to anyone to leave and not come back. What I meant was if all this is a waste of time and effort, that you feel we'll never see our City again, or nothing anyone's doing here will bring that back to you in any way that will satisfy you, then perhaps you're just here looking for closure. If that's the case, you got that last December 1st. If not... then keep your hopes up and stick around. You never know what's going to happen, but it won't be spurred on by negativity or trying to diminish the efforts of others, that's for sure.

also...

I don't recall it being a full game. I thought they put out some screenies from a "found game" for April Fool's a few years ago.

I was trying to be funny; yes it was just an April Fool's joke.

Lyc~

[CoyoteSeven]

I've been down this road before, what with my old devotion to the Amiga platform and the devastation that happened after Commodore's demise. Nearly drove me crazy. I can't do that again.

So I'll sit here and passively read what everyone else is doing. If they manage to get the game back online then I will happily return.

[Electric-Knight]

Yeah, saying not much has been done and/or calling it nothing is not really a matter of opinion... it's just wrong.
Sure, anything more than sticking something into a microwave and waiting a few minutes before it's done is the maximum the average person is willing to commit to anything, but, fortunately, we have a lot of non-average people doing a lot of serious work.

And not just within these Titan Forums.

Besides the unknown happenings of the top men, working on secret things that should, one day, yield results for all of us...

I hope I'm not out of line in saying this, but I think that the work put into something like Icon is also, you know, a part of the process.
It may not be what you want from it it right now... but it very well might lead to what you are looking for eventually (whether from the same hands that started it, or from someone else that takes it further).

I think this aspect is what some people might be right in taking a little bit of offense to (for lack of a better description, as I'm not sure there's much offense taken, really). A lot has been done. And things have been accomplished.

[downix]

I've been down this road before, what with my old devotion to the Amiga platform and the devastation that happened after Commodore's demise. Nearly drove me crazy. I can't do that again.

So I'll sit here and passively read what everyone else is doing. If they manage to get the game back online then I will happily return.

*holds up his boing ball secret decoder ring*

[Kyriani]

I lurk in the hopes that one day in the not too distant future the secret team that my imagination swears is working on getting a private server client running, posts about their success and gives us links for dling the server so we can host it ourselves for solo play or for more enterprising people to run a full time private server. >_>

I dont know for sure such a team exists... but my heart hopes that you do and I will heap much praise upon you if you give me back my COH. >_>

[Mazz vs The World]

I agree with what you said Tony V. I also believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion regardless of if you or anyone else thinks it's right or not. A man could have $100 and it would be nothing to a man with a Million but the world to a man with nothing, just to give you some perspective. No one is expecting this site to make a new COH or promise to make it I hope anyway. I come for the updates honestly and I am happy with what's going on as far as people talking about the game still and attempting to get it back but I can fully understand why someone would think that not much has been done. That was and is my final point! Hopefully we can get this game back and it operate 60-75% of what it did and I think most would be fine and of course you will always have those who aren't and I would understand them if they did.

[TonyV]

So I'll sit here and passively read what everyone else is doing. If they manage to get the game back online then I will happily return.

Just to be clear, I don't mind lurkers.  I like lurkers!  I see our web stats, and when we have good, stable numbers, it means that what we're doing is worthwhile and interesting, even if people aren't posting "You guys are great!" messages.  And I don't mind people popping in now and then and asking, "So I've been away for a while, what's the latest?"  But what I don't like is when I feel like it's couched in terms of, "So you guys haven't accomplished X yet?"  Because the former is asking for information and at least represents some attempt to come up to speed, even though I would prefer it if the asker at least glances at the forum stickies first.  But the latter, it just has the connotation of, "What's taking you all so long?", or worse, "You're failing to meet my expectations."  And we just have too many people working too hard for that to slide by.

[Bold]

Alright, I'm a long long long time lurker. I never feel I have anything constructive to offer, so I just sit quietly, but I see I'm kind of wrong in that.

Thank you EVERYONE who's keeping ANY part of this going. I miss the game, and coming here gives me hope. Every single day.

Also, I stay in regular contact with some of my old SG mates who don't come here because it's still too painful, but they thank you too.

[Captain Electric]

And to be blunt, it's entirely within the realm of the likely that the reverse engineering efforts and/or one or more Plan Z project will result in a solution that is >100% perfect for a lot of people; that there may be features and capabilities that, because of technical and business limitations imposed on Paragon Studios, end up making for a better experience than the original.

Emphasis mine; for the uninitiated, this has been my experience with the best reverse-engineered MMOs I've spent time with. Ultima Online (under RunUO), Earth and Beyond, and Earth Eternal all featured advanced quality of life improvements, new classes and areas to explore, new features to interact with your characters, inventories and auctions from outside of the game, and so on. How did players pull these things off, when the developers couldn't? The answer is simple.

Player-operated MMOs are powered by passion, fun, consensus (hopefully), AND NOTHING ELSE, and this leads to features that are focused on improving the lives of the players. Publisher-owned MMOs are powered by profit, greed, and marketing strategies, and this leads to features that are focused on exploiting player psychologies in order to improve the profits of the publishers. Do some studios find a way to balance their passion against their publisher overlords' overbearing greed? Yes! Obviously, yes! But in case you haven't noticed, publishers are becoming increasingly intolerant of this.

Studios have deadlines and everything is 100% triage all the time, based on upcoming quarterly shareholder reports. Players have goals, and every reverse-engineered MMO tends to have those "scary genius geniuses" who will make their audiences wildest dreams come true, technical limitations be damned. If there is a reverse-engineered project in the works for City of Heroes, I would imagine its stockpile of scary genius geniuses exceeds anything the world has ever seen.

[Cinnder]

This thread seems to be walking a line between objective and subjective.  To say that "nothing" has been done is just factually incorrect.  However, I can understand that someone might feel that "not much" has been done, if they haven't really been keeping up to speed on all that is actually happening.  Personally I feel much more has been done than I ever expected on 01 Dec.  Once it became clear that NCSoft was not gonna play ball, I thought that CoH was completely dead.  But the community lives on, we have reverse engineering results like Icon and the new games under development (both of which continue to evolve), and there are still efforts to convince NCSoft to give us back our city.  All of that gives me hope, and I'd like to express a hearty thanks to everyone involved in any of these undertakings.  I'm pretty sure at this point that NCSoft intends to keep CoH as it was dead for good, but -- as Tony says -- that doesn't mean that it won't rise again in some other form.

So I guess it comes down to expectations.  But I would ask this to anyone who feels not much has been done: what are you doing to help?

[Captain Electric]

I'll also add that every time a years-old MMO server gets rewritten, it gets redesigned using technology and tricks (which includes optimization) which either didn't exist when the game was birthed, or were sacrificed in triage for dirty hacks. I'm personally aware that in years past, Ultima Online devs lamented the fact that the official game was TECHNOLOGICALLY INCAPABLE of many of the features created by players under the RunUO suite of emulator developer tools. This is likely one of the reasons why EA spent time spying on RunUO shards instead of trying to shut them down.

RunUO remains technologically superior to the official servers. The Earth and Beyond emulator is technologically WAY more advanced than the Live game was. I imagine everyone sees my point.

[downix]

I'll also add that every time a years-old MMO server gets rewritten, it gets redesigned using technology and tricks (which includes optimization) which either didn't exist when the game was birthed, or were sacrificed in triage for dirty hacks. I'm personally aware that in years past, Ultima Online devs lamented the fact that the official game was TECHNOLOGICALLY INCAPABLE of many of the features created by players under the RunUO suite of emulator developer tools. This is likely one of the reasons why EA spent time spying on RunUO shards instead of trying to shut them down.

RunUO remains technologically superior to the official servers. The Earth and Beyond emulator is technologically WAY more advanced than the Live game was. I imagine everyone sees my point.

I see your point better than some, because I'm now at the point when I load up Icon and run around the zones, I am struck by how... old everything looks, technology wise in comparison to the prototype systems I've been working with.

[JaguarX]

I imagine everyone sees my point.

Ah see this is what I mean. Sometimes generalizations are just that. See some raise a fuss at the sight of nothing have been done, but here, we have I imagine everyone see my point. (And this is not to pick on anyone, just the first one I noticed here but it happens across many thread many people with everyone, none, nothing, always, never,) hell I think I even do it from time to time..

So even if one person doesnt see the point, then that would make it just as wrong of a statement as someone sayng nothing have been done.


And as I said, not that it's bad, and more than likely it wasnt meant as literally as everyone, because then that is lot of people, 3 billion or so making Electric the most popular guy in the entire world to know or even imagine that everyone would get the point.


Now if we are not to take his statement of "everyone" as literal terms, then why should the term of "nothing" be taken literal?  Then if it aint to be taken literal, then what is the fuss about if it's not literal like the statement of "everyone"  most likely simply means most people, which even then could be question as most of who and do he in fact know most people to make that assumption or guess, and nothing means not much been done which brings it to the opinion side as what is not much is much to another, which nullify the fuss about it.


AKA, in short why is one taken literal because it looks disagreeable, and one is assumed to be not literal because it looks agreeable? 

[Wyrm]

Just to be clear, I don't mind lurkers.  I like lurkers!

I mainly lurk, if only because my passion made me occasionally argumentative on the official forums.  I compose patient, well-worded, non-confrontational messages as part of my day job.  I mean, I hope I do.  I have a harder time channeling my passion into the kind of well-constructed and very constructive post you made a few messages above.

  I see our web stats, and when we have good, stable numbers, it means that what we're doing is worthwhile and interesting, even if people aren't posting "You guys are great!" messages.

You guys* are great.

I had gotten stuck in the rut of, "If NCSoft won't sell the IP, we're kind of hosed until something new comes from the Plan Z projects."  Losing hope and all that.  I can relate to some of what the OP said, even if I don't agree with it.  Kind of, "been there, bro."

Then I got around to trying Icon. 

Holy wow.  The world I love is still there.  It's STILL THERE.

I'm a believer.  It will happen eventually, because too many people share that love for it not to happen.  And I'm willing to wait, and contribute however I can.

~Wyrm


* = "guys" in the non-gendered usage of the word, of course.

[Angel Phoenix77]

I mainly lurk, if only because my passion made me occasionally argumentative on the official forums.  I compose patient, well-worded, non-confrontational messages as part of my day job.  I mean, I hope I do.  I have a harder time channeling my passion into the kind of well-constructed and very constructive post you made a few messages above.You guys* are great.

I had gotten stuck in the rut of, "If NCSoft won't sell the IP, we're kind of hosed until something new comes from the Plan Z projects."  Losing hope and all that.  I can relate to some of what the OP said, even if I don't agree with it.  Kind of, "been there, bro."

Then I got around to trying Icon. 

Holy wow.  The world I love is still there.  It's STILL THERE.

I'm a believer.  It will happen eventually, because too many people share that love for it not to happen.  And I'm willing to wait, and contribute however I can.

~Wyrm


* = "guys" in the non-gendered usage of the word, of course.

this is how i feel . how would i get on to icon?

[Aggelakis]

this is how i feel . how would i get on to icon?

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7288.0.html

[Angel Phoenix77]

ty

[Mistress Urd]

Emphasis mine; for the uninitiated, this has been my experience with the best reverse-engineered MMOs I've spent time with. Ultima Online (under RunUO), Earth and Beyond, and Earth Eternal all featured advanced quality of life improvements, new classes and areas to explore, new features to interact with your characters, inventories and auctions from outside of the game, and so on. How did players pull these things off, when the developers couldn't? The answer is simple.

Player-operated MMOs are powered by passion, fun, consensus (hopefully), AND NOTHING ELSE, and this leads to features that are focused on improving the lives of the players. Publisher-owned MMOs are powered by profit, greed, and marketing strategies, and this leads to features that are focused on exploiting player psychologies in order to improve the profits of the publishers. Do some studios find a way to balance their passion against their publisher overlords' overbearing greed? Yes! Obviously, yes! But in case you haven't noticed, publishers are becoming increasingly intolerant of this.

Studios have deadlines and everything is 100% triage all the time, based on upcoming quarterly shareholder reports. Players have goals, and every reverse-engineered MMO tends to have those "scary genius geniuses" who will make their audiences wildest dreams come true, technical limitations be damned. If there is a reverse-engineered project in the works for City of Heroes, I would imagine its stockpile of scary genius geniuses exceeds anything the world has ever seen.

*steps out of the shadows

Sadly, this is how things are going in the MMO world with F2P. I've been enjoying myself "retro-gaming" with some old classics back when games were fun. 

In the case of CoH we got a nice (perhaps accidental) mix of casual friendly and team friendly game that was fairly easy to play and get into. The CoH community in general was very helpful.

*hides again

[Golden Girl]

No one's managed to do a fair and honest f2p option yet.

[downix]

Yes, they have GG. There are plenty of solid f2p games out there. Quite a few rubbish as well.