Being heard

[Illusionss]

There is a saying that if you dont have any haters that means you are doing somethign terriblely wrong. Everything great have it's detractors.

Yep, pretty much.

With that said, anywhere you go on the internet, people are disagreeing. I go to news articles where an attempt to save a horribly-abused pet is being discussed, guess what in the comment section, there are people who dont agree with helping abused animals. Or children. Any concept you can name, you have some people against it. So the idea that there are people against rebooting CoX, or against Plan Z, no shocks there.

But just like they dont care whan we want, the fact that they want the game dead and they view Plan Z as stupid: I dont care about that. It is irrelevant to my interests.

I spent six years in-game and I never encountered any anti-Titan sentiment in the SGs I was involved in, nor did I see any in public chat. I'm sure it was there, but it was hardly everywhere.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I meant post close.  Titan was and still is any CoHers best friend.  That is why I hate to see it get a bad rep, when in actually the Titan community is a hub of many different people.  But the people who don't come here or didn't stick around long enough don't see it and just make conclusions based on the comment boards of other websites.

There is a saying that if you dont have any haters that means you are doing somethign terriblely wrong. Everything great have it's detractors.

  There is a lot of truth in that.  And while haters will just be haters.  Some people who aren't haters become haters after being accused of being a hater. 

[JaguarX]

And while haters will just be haters.  Some people who aren't haters become haters after being accused of being a hater.

Truth. And that is a reason why the label probably shouldn't be thrown around in a liberal (non-politic definition) manner.

[Burnt Toast]

Many people have sent me PMs... I simply respond to them - to answer one of your questions.


Contrary to what some may think - I have not "worked my tail off" to color Titan in any manner. If I see an article and happen to think the comment sections are biased and full of suppositions I simply call that out.


I stop by Titan every now and then to read a little information and see if anything here has changed....that is the extent of my involvement with Titan. I post once every few months here as well; especially if/when my name happens to come up. While I am not a fan of Titan...I will always be a fan of City Of Heroes; remember I played from Issue 3 until the lights went out (2 VIP accounts) CoH was/is the only game I have ever played for more than a week. My CoH community left the game on November 30th...and moved on to other games (most of them to GW2) but I basically have given up on MMOs.


As far as the kibun mishap - I "spoke" to roughly 12-15 people; many who were directly involved in it...and begged them to discontinue...only to be disregarded and/or ridiculed. The Kibun was one of many reasons I left Titan...but not the only reason.

I couldn't resist. I have no willpower this early!

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/articles/16193/20130326/wildstar-mmo-gameplay-preview-player-housing-revealed.htm#comment-848480549
(Give the page a few seconds to load up and it will move you down to my comment.)

I'm sticking with the shill angle because I've always suspected their use by publishers even before one of EA's was exposed and another one fessed up about their ubiquitousness in the industry. I think it's as real a possibility as it being someone like BurntToast.

Which is why I also suspect it could be BurntToast. That guy has become, like, the perfect super villain--the kind who believes in the hate and destruction he sews.

I found BurntToast quite smart and likable. But when he threw the racism blanket over our entire community, which is quite diverse, I ran out of understanding. Nevertheless, I've always wondered who all he was sending PMs to here. I feel like if you'd have done something besides completely ignore his pleas, he could have been brought into that kibun blind alley and helped keep you from looking like average American tourists...a reputation you briefly gave all of us, because that's how this sort of thing works.

Racism? No. I don't think so. And I love everyone here. But when you tried to appeal to NCSoft through some of South Korea's most sensitive cultural pressure-points...it was Tsoooo weird and awkward to watch ya'll do that. Like, 1990s weird and awkward. And there's a reason why no one ever talks about the 90s.

(It's because the 90s were really weird and awkward.)

But anyway...I don't blame him for getting upset. I DO blame him for building a crusade around what I think he knows, deep down, was just one of many (bad) ideas that got kicked around these forums at that time. And I DO blame anyone here who poked fun at him or disregarded him while simultaneously appearing to be asking for input about South Korean culture from anyone who had any facts about it. Yes he was second generation but he knew more than anyone else at that time.

A mess could have been avoided. That guy has worked his tail off for months, all over the Internet, to color this community in a very dark fashion.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Burnt toast is actually the kind of people I am speaking of.  That is a CoH lover that we don't have on our side and it shouldn't be that way.  I am sure a lot of people are getting tired of me being the devils advocate a lot of the time but I truly think we can bring back a lot of people with an easy fix.  Simply listen to people like Burnt Toast.  I have to agree the kibun thing I found rather racist but it wasn't enough to make me leave Titan because it wasn't Titans post so much a post on Titan.  I say we ask Burnt Toast what made him leave, even though he kind of answered that already, and then try and work on it.  There is no shame in saying "Oh maybe I do, do that sometimes"  Ill admit I can be a pain in the butt and tend to be a little over opinionated at times and often get into arguments with the "same side" but its because I think we can do better.  Burnt Toast isn't a unicorn or some paid CoH basher by NCSoft.  He is a person who felt that when he spoke his opinion didn't matter. He is also a CoH fan which is why we are all here.  I feel the "With us or a unicorn" attitude truly needs to go.  This isn't a game or a "war" as some people have made into.  This is a struggle to bring back our game and we are loosing numbers.

However I would like to point out that the "With us or a troll" attitude is a bit of an illusion taken on by some people.  While I have seen that attitude, I have frequently disagreed with people on this forum and have never been called a troll so I do know its not entirely true.  But it has happened in the past. 

[JaguarX]

Burnt toast is actually the kind of people I am speaking of.  That is a CoH lover that we don't have on our side and it shouldn't be that way.  I am sure a lot of people are getting tired of me being the devils advocate a lot of the time but I truly think we can bring back a lot of people with an easy fix.  Simply listen to people like Burnt Toast.  I have to agree the kibun thing I found rather racist but it wasn't enough to make me leave Titan because it wasn't Titans post so much a post on Titan.  I say we ask Burnt Toast what made him leave, even though he kind of answered that already, and then try and work on it.  There is no shame in saying "Oh maybe I do, do that sometimes"  Ill admit I can be a pain in the butt and tend to be a little over opinionated at times and often get into arguments with the "same side" but its because I think we can do better.  Burnt Toast isn't a unicorn or some paid CoH basher by NCSoft.  He is a person who felt that when he spoke his opinion didn't matter. He is also a CoH fan which is why we are all here.  I feel the "With us or a unicorn" attitude truly needs to go.  This isn't a game or a "war" as some people have made into.  This is a struggle to bring back our game and we are loosing numbers.

However I would like to point out that the "With us or a unicorn" attitude is a bit of an illusion taken on by some people.  While I have seen that attitude, I have frequently disagreed with people on this forum and have never been called a unicorn so I do know its not entirely true.  But it has happened in the past.

+10 this.

[dwturducken]

I more than a little ashamed to have been a part of the kibun movement when it first started, but I bugged out when I saw it getting out of control. That was before Burnt Toast had his incident. I'm still sorry that I didn't do something to try to steer it back to something not offensive. Also, I came to terms with my opinion not mattering pretty early on.

[Mistress Urd]

Burnt toast is actually the kind of people I am speaking of.  That is a CoH lover that we don't have on our side and it shouldn't be that way.  I am sure a lot of people are getting tired of me being the devils advocate a lot of the time but I truly think we can bring back a lot of people with an easy fix.  Simply listen to people like Burnt Toast.  I have to agree the kibun thing I found rather racist but it wasn't enough to make me leave Titan because it wasn't Titans post so much a post on Titan.  I say we ask Burnt Toast what made him leave, even though he kind of answered that already, and then try and work on it.  There is no shame in saying "Oh maybe I do, do that sometimes"  Ill admit I can be a pain in the butt and tend to be a little over opinionated at times and often get into arguments with the "same side" but its because I think we can do better.  Burnt Toast isn't a unicorn or some paid CoH basher by NCSoft.  He is a person who felt that when he spoke his opinion didn't matter. He is also a CoH fan which is why we are all here.  I feel the "With us or a unicorn" attitude truly needs to go.  This isn't a game or a "war" as some people have made into.  This is a struggle to bring back our game and we are loosing numbers.

However I would like to point out that the "With us or a unicorn" attitude is a bit of an illusion taken on by some people.  While I have seen that attitude, I have frequently disagreed with people on this forum and have never been called a unicorn so I do know its not entirely true.  But it has happened in the past.

That is exactly some of the problem, some people just can't seem to accept there are differing points of view and when you have a large community of players, the only common agreement is that we all liked City of Heroes. There are several people on Titan who shall remain nameless who label people who won't spend money on anything NCSoft as "Vendetta hate filled vile villains". I don't label people, I ask what is their thinking because in general people don't reach such decisions without thought.

[JanessaVR]

I feel the "With us or a unicorn" attitude truly needs to go.  This isn't a game or a "war" as some people have made into.  This is a struggle to bring back our game and we are loosing numbers.

I will disagree with this.  This is a war and NCSoft is our enemy.  That said, certainly one should keep in mind that it's NCSoft that is our enemy, and not our fellow CoH players.  However, Titan is the home of the efforts to either revive or replace CoH.  If any CoH players are not at least nominally ok with that, then what are they doing to try to revive or replace CoH?

[Taceus Jiwede]

I will disagree with this.  This is a war and NCSoft is our enemy.  That said, certainly one should keep in mind that it's NCSoft that is our enemy, and not our fellow CoH players.  However, Titan is the home of the efforts to either revive or replace CoH.  If any CoH players are not at least nominally ok with that, then what are they doing to try to revive or replace CoH?

That is a good point. I agree that CoHTitan is the only one fighting for CoH and that is why I would like to see us get as many numbers as possible.  Some people are apathetic and they aren't doing anything to save the game, and it is annoying when people tell us we are dumb for trying to save the game.  But that doesn't mean everyone who isn't 100% with us is 100% against us and at times people have taken that approach.  Much like Mistress Urd said though we are such a large community of people so just because some of taken that approach doesn't mean everyone at Titan does.  I see how people think its a war and I understand that mentality but if it is a war then it is only a war with NCSoft to save our game not with the people who don't understand or take part in our efforts.

[JaguarX]

That is a good point. I agree that CoHTitan is the only one fighting for CoH and that is why I would like to see us get as many numbers as possible.  Some people are apathetic and they aren't doing anything to save the game, and it is annoying when people tell us we are dumb for trying to save the game.  But that doesn't mean everyone who isn't 100% with us is 100% against us and at times people have taken that approach.  Much like Mistress Urd said though we are such a large community of people so just because some of taken that approach doesn't mean everyone at Titan does.  I see how people think its a war and I understand that mentality but if it is a war then it is only a war with NCSoft to save our game not with the people who don't understand or take part in our efforts.

Well actually, COHTitan is not the only one fighting for COX believe it or not. COHTitan the largest? Most likely. Only? No. There are some out there that is not on COHTitan that are fighting just as long and just as hard as anyone else on here if not more.

Although, playing mr. obvious here, everyone who played COX or cared about COX or broke up about it is not here in COHTitan. Or else, we would have about what, 100,000 people or so here?

[MindBlender]

I will disagree with this.  This is a war and NCSoft is our enemy.  That said, certainly one should keep in mind that it's NCSoft that is our enemy, and not our fellow CoH players.  However, Titan is the home of the efforts to either revive or replace CoH.  If any CoH players are not at least nominally ok with that, then what are they doing to try to revive or replace CoH?

I have to say that they were the enemy the moment they announced our home would be gone.  IMO they kicked us south of the boarder when they announced they were taking something we enjoyed hours on and spent buckets of money on in some cases.  They were a "friend" for 8+ years and then knifed us in the back.  I will NEVER spend another dime or second on them only due to the fact that any "friend" that turns on me gets left behind and never regains my trust.

[Ironwolf]

When you fight a war the first thing you want to establish is what the point of the war is. Not to start a political issue just using it as an example :

The US war with Afghanistan. We had a countries government acting as a haven for terrorists to plan acts in other countries. The USA countered after an attack by the terrorists with an act of war. They did not have a plan for victory. They didn't intend to occupy and make it American territory. They wanted a new government that they are now finding out is not much different from the old one.

So, my point is if you plan a war with NCSoft - what does victory look like?
 
Does it get them to sell the game but drives players away because they think those CoH players are nuts?
Do we win by constant positive action - in which we act as heroes and make even our enemy feel he was wrong?
Do we listen and make welcome even dissenting opinions as long as they also offer a positive solution?

We have an opportunity now to make a difference even more than in the past - lets show BOTH companies love for restoring our City.

[JaguarX]

When you fight a war the first thing you want to establish is what the point of the war is. Not to start a political issue just using it as an example :

The US war with Afghanistan. We had a countries government acting as a haven for terrorists to plan acts in other countries. The USA countered after an attack by the terrorists with an act of war. They did not have a plan for victory. They didn't intend to occupy and make it American territory. They wanted a new government that they are now finding out is not much different from the old one.

So, my point is if you plan a war with NCSoft - what does victory look like?
 
Does it get them to sell the game but drives players away because they think those CoH players are nuts?
Do we win by constant positive action - in which we act as heroes and make even our enemy feel he was wrong?
Do we listen and make welcome even dissenting opinions as long as they also offer a positive solution?

We have an opportunity now to make a difference even more than in the past - lets show BOTH companies love for restoring our City.

+1.

I will add that a positive solution do not always equals the solution the person is looking for or wanting to hear or a solution they agree with.

[Lightslinger]

Being heard is the main thing we're after actually, and I'm just wondering...

We've all been part of criticizing NCsoft for not promoting CoH like it should have been. Because of a lack of money spent on advertising CoH did not grow to its full potential.

Now here we are, the only group fighting for CoH. If we stop, there will not be a single group effort left attempting to revive CoH...and are we spending any money to promote that fight?

What I'm asking; is it time we put our money where our mouths are? Should we be pooling together resources to buy ads on MMO sites and MMO magazines? Imagine if every time NCsoft had an article up promoting Wildstar they saw YET ANOTHER Save CoH ad.

It's a lot of money and I have no clue how to go about it, but if we want to be really heard, we've got to get our message out in front of NCsoft's, and there's no way to do that but pay.

[Quinch]

It's been mentioned before, actually but... nobody stepped up to the plate of organizing. Frankly, the idea of being responsible for other people's money gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies. But I would be willing to chip in, should something serious come of it.

[Lightslinger]

It's been mentioned before, actually but... nobody stepped up to the plate of organizing. Frankly, the idea of being responsible for other people's money gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies. But I would be willing to chip in, should something serious come of it.

Yeah and I won't pretend I'm willing or even able to manage something like that, just brainstorming. I've got two small kids, a full time job and a small business I run on the side...pretty sure wife would kill me if I try to "entrepreneur" anything else, lol.

However, if someone were able to manage something like that, I think it could be immensely powerful IF we knew a buyer was waiting. For example: if we talk to Jack and find out that, even unofficially, he and Cryptic were open to the idea of buying CoH, THEN we start a big campaign to get the word out. If we don't know of a real buyer ready to buy CoH...then there's really no point in advertising.

[Ironwolf]

I am willing to try and find out the cost of advertising on a few websites. I will post what I find and if we then can get a serious buyer - like Cryptic - we can put the pressure on. Until we have again as I posted an end to our war - we can't fight.

I personally would be willing to buy an add depending of course on the price. I am not good with making the ad however so I would come here for ideas - all credit freely given for the artwork.

[Ironwolf]

One further thought - how about this angle:

A picture of a character from City of Heroes with a suitcase saying - I am still looking for a home!

#SaveCoh
NCSoft please call Jack.

Or something like that?

[dwturducken]

I know this has been floated before, but what about a print ad in an industry magazine. Game Informer is the only that comes to mind that's still in print, but I'm sure there are options for this.

(Scratch Game Informer, short term: a half-page black and white ad is over a $100K, and a full page color ad is nearly double that.)