New efforts!

[JanessaVR]

Other than things I scribble together that is never intended to see the light of day or for that matter anyone else to read, use, or comment on, I believe the number one imperative of programmers is to write clear, readable code.  That it actually works is the second.  If it can't be supported, its not worth the trouble of having no matter what it does.  Most programmers believe they write code for the computer to read.  But in fact for most large scale programs (and most smaller ones also) they should be writing first and foremost for their fellow programmers who have to deal with their work.

I hear you, but I freaking swear we're in the minority.

[Joshex]

As a programmer, I am intensely critical of most other programmers.  I pride myself on code with a standardized structure and naming conventions, clear in-code commented documentation of each section of code, and formalized code documentation files, which are neatly organized and specifically designed to be read and understood by non-techies.

The vast majority of programmers I have ever met fall greatly short of this standard and I consider them to be lazy and undisciplined.

Due to a number of factors, like being sick as a dog, busy with work, and corralled into jury duty, I haven't had much time to spend on my version 0.00000000000000000000001 MMO, so its entirely appropriate that today's MMO development topic is development time, and specifically how long things should take.

Lesson One: everything always takes longer than you think.

Lesson Two: nope, even more than that.

Lesson Three: if you do all that Vanessa said, even longer still than what arcana said.

sadly I am now in that category of three. I keep the ## notes for my own benefit as well as others who may someday have to find something..

[Todogut]

About 18 months ago...

You're a good sport, Arcana.  <sup>*

*</sup> For sake of accurate description, in October 2013, Arcana posted:

... an 18 month cycle is a more appropriate estimate...

Then I sent her a private message, we discussed, and the bet was finalized in November 2013.

[MM3squints]

In other words it sounds to me a lot of programmers would be terrible engineers.  Because the most golden rule of all is KISS.

Engineers have the same issue especially nukes in the Navy. That's why there is a phrase in the fleet, "don't nuke it"

[Eskreema]

I believe the number one imperative of *ANYONE WITH AN IDEA, but especially scientists* is to write clear, readable *STUFF.*  That it actually works is the second.  If it can't be supported, its not worth the trouble of having no matter what it does.

Fixed.

[blacksly]

As a programmer, I am intensely critical of most other programmers.  I pride myself on code with a standardized structure and naming conventions, clear in-code commented documentation of each section of code, and formalized code documentation files, which are neatly organized and specifically designed to be read and understood by non-techies.

The vast majority of programmers I have ever met fall greatly short of this standard and I consider them to be lazy and undisciplined.

Same here. It looks to me as if the majority of programmers considers commenting an UNNECESSARY evil, because most just don't bother.

[blacksly]

In other words it sounds to me a lot of programmers would be terrible engineers.  Because the most golden rule of all is KISS.

No, commenting is separate from KISS. In fact, with some languages (C as a nasty example), you can write a relatively short and direct command, or you can write three lines that do the same thing. But you WANT to write those three lines, plus perhaps another 1-3 lines to comment what you're doing, because reading those 3 commented lines two years later is a LOT simpler than trying to parse a complicated function reference that can be fit on one line.

I've often broken down code into several patch pieces rather than elegantly fitting them together... because like car engines, the more elegantly you fit them together into a smaller space, the more cursing happens when people have to take them apart either to figure them out or to change them.

[Biz]

No, commenting is separate from KISS. In fact, with some languages (C as a nasty example), you can write a relatively short and direct command, or you can write three lines that do the same thing. But you WANT to write those three lines, plus perhaps another 1-3 lines to comment what you're doing, because reading those 3 commented lines two years later is a LOT simpler than trying to parse a complicated function reference that can be fit on one line.

I've often broken down code into several patch pieces rather than elegantly fitting them together... because like car engines, the more elegantly you fit them together into a smaller space, the more cursing happens when people have to take them apart either to figure them out or to change them.

so this

[Arcana]

In other words it sounds to me a lot of programmers would be terrible engineers.  Because the most golden rule of all is KISS.

The KISS principle is a highly abused one, because its not always taught with a guiding principle.  What is "simple?"  For many programmers, the simplest program possible is the one with the least number of lines, or even characters.  For some its the one that contains only the necessary and sufficient constructs to implement an algorithm.  What parameters are you trying to simplify?  For me, the parameter to simplify the strongest is "can this be supported by the people who have to maintain it for the entire realistic duration of its lifetime?"  That's not a question of KISS, its a question of priority.

And as an engineer by education and by self-identification if not always by profession, I believe that's a general engineering principle, not one specific to programming.  In fact, that's why I myself profess to a belief in the distinction between coding and software engineering.  Both involve programming.  One is related to the other as building bonfires is to building jet engines.

On the matter of code comments.  I'm of the opinion its extremely rare when well-written code needs to be commented as to what it does and good comments should usually focus on why its doing it.

For example, you might have a line of code that rounds numbers to the nearest hundredth:

x = int(x * 100 + 0.5)/100

This is usually an unnecessary comment, except for beginners:

# this rounds x to the nearest hundredth

This is an idiotic comment that should get you flogged:

# this multiplies x by one hundred and adds 0.5, truncates to the integer, then divides by one hundred

This is what comments are for:

# the x input is only accurate to 0.01 units, so there's no point in keeping higher precision

Not only does the comment explain why I did what I did, it also suggests when what I did might one day be wrong.  It highlights my assumptions and thought process about what my intent was when writing what I did.  It reveals design intent.  Programs don't come with blueprints.  Comments have to fill that gap.

[LaughingAlex]

So your focusing more on communicating your intentions behind your code, I think I gotcha now.  I can see where your all going with these arguments.

As for defining what simple is, well as with anything there is always more than one solution to a problem.  I could have set up my local area network any number of ways, the ones I had in mind were all simple with some trade or another, to me it was a choice of what I was willing to trade off know?  Hell my troubleshooting varied from time to time in one of my more recent jobs, the solutions I used varied, though one thing I wasn't fond of was troubleshooting some keypad.  The number of steps to fix the thing often left me feeling "they need to switch to something far more practical", since the steps were confusing, at best, for the person I was walking them through(and there was about 30 steps to troubleshoot the damn things).  Like "they should have designed it around allowing for a fast re-install" or "Why didn't they have any means to backup a configuration?".  In a way, the keypads were obviously necessary for the job, but the steps involved with them was a nightmare as to make them just impractical from an efficiency perspective.

[JanessaVR]

This is what comments are for:

# the x input is only accurate to 0.01 units, so there's no point in keeping higher precision

Not only does the comment explain why I did what I did, it also suggests when what I did might one day be wrong.  It highlights my assumptions and thought process about what my intent was when writing what I did.  It reveals design intent.  Programs don't come with blueprints.  Comments have to fill that gap.

^
THIS, YES

[Remaugen]

Now if you'll all excuse me, I have to find a miner's hat, a banjo, eighty-three paper clips, and a bowl of yellow M&Ms.

I Googled that with no results, but it sounds funny as hell. Couldn't find the noodle implements ref either, but for some reason it's got me cracking up!

[Arcana]

I Googled that with no results, but it sounds funny as hell. Couldn't find the noodle implements ref either, but for some reason it's got me cracking up!

Be thankful you missed the noodle implements link.  We can't keep sending search parties to retrieve people who keep falling for that trap.

[Prism Almidu]

That site is so hard to pull yourself away from... but it IS possible.

[GamingGlen]

If you want to be paid as a programmer, your first task is to write code that works.  The client does not care how neat and tidy it looks.  The client does not care about the in-code documentation.  What the client cares about is he getting what he paid for and on time.  Everything else is secondary.  Documentation is great, but not at the expense of on time delivery of working code.

[Azrael]

EULA. 

Sometimes, 'the law is an ass.'

Free services.  Rental software.  Your emotional investment held hostage to fortune.  Your creative work, even.  Use someone's pay service and they can claim license to use your IP because of a paragraph buried in the T&C. 

Increasingly, corporations are rolling out the 'welcome' mat with 'freebies and services', getting you 'hooked' and they can 'yank' said service when they so choose...and 'over reach' in other areas of consumers rights from Privacy, to 'fair use' or their IP.

Since 'tapes' and vinyls (music as I know it...), 'fair use' seems to have gone out the window.

The odds, to me, look increasingly stacked in favour of corporations.

Something can be 'legal' (and yes, be careful of what you sign up for, READ the contract...BUT how many people READ all that legal indicia before clicking 'ok'?) but it doesn't always make it right and corporations know this and have and are taking advantage of it.  People are happy to 'sign right up' with an 'ok' without reading the terms and conditions.

When making a deal or having dinner with the devil use long silver spoons.

Take CoH, for example.  It may or not be 'legal' to use a reverse engineered client of City of Heroes by NC Soft.  But this isn't about us setting up a big honking server to compete with a City of Heroes server that is already being provided by NC Soft.  i.e..  Us depriving them of their rightful profits to the IP.  No.  It's not that.

It's about a community who have had their 'rental' software 'yanked' (even when it was making a substantial profit, it and of itself...) abruptly.  100k paying customers.  Many of whom were hardcore and had played for the best part of 8 years.  They had 'IP' investment, emotional investment in the game and payed substantial monies for said service, the game client and other paid for expansions and 'add ons' from the shop provided.  And now they don't.

The critics may say, 'you paid for what they said you would got and you knew it wouldn't be forever.'  Sure.  That may be true but not everything 'true' is moral or fair.

'Fair use.'  I believe the CoH Community is entitled to a server IF they are willing to support the cost of running the server.  They have an ongoing 'fair use' right to the game client and a server running that game.  Now, if the server was running at a loss?  Sure, we're not entitled to have NC Soft subsidise a loss making server.

However, caveat.  Even in that context.  I believe a provision should be made for a game to be played 'offline', limited 'MMO' LAN capability.  Eg.  For a team of 8 players (so that Task Forces can still be performed and 'teaming' in general.)  A 'micro server' if you will...so that people's investment is protected to a degree.

A compromise?  Sure.  We can't have our cake and eat it.  There was no guarantee that CoH was going to stay popular and expect NC Soft to run it on 10 servers if the population only supported 1.  However, 'fair use', for me, says that Corporations reach a compromise with their CUSTOMERS!  The ones that give them their profits.

'The power of the hand.'  Don't like NC Soft closing your game?  Don't buy their software.  It's the only language many corporations understand.  Don't like their vast  'eastern' style tuppaware of MMOs?  Don't buy their plastic trinity grinds. 

So.  If they're not prepared to be reasonable?  ICON continues its inevitable course of action.  I fully understand Leandro's 'charged' post (it's great to have people so passionate behind 'ICON' and ongoing 'efforts.')  It echoes how I and many others(!) feel about CoH and NC Soft's stance.  Which, I feel, is unreasonable.  In these ever more so, 'corporate' weighted times where privacy and fair use rights are being steam rollered...?  It increasingly feels like the 'Rebel Alliance' vs the 'Imperial Fleet.'

*waves his hand away to people quoting 'the law' on the EULA.

Azrael.

PS.  NC Soft can try and 'remotely' delete software on our machines.  Let them try it.  (Which I don't think is right.)  There will be the almightily mother of fatwa unleashed upon them and their 'push for the mobile gaming market of the USA.' 

PPS.  Does this 'mystery ICON release' affect the 'talks..?'  I don't think so.  I think Codewalker's comments were spot on.  And he was being more than reasonable in what he said.

[Solitaire]

Anyone fancy a "Statesman Task Force"?

For some reason it's all I've been thinking about this morning...

[Noyjitat]

Master of plus rush all 4 avs at once speedrun?

[Risha]

Well, it's been 20 pages and since May 25th that I signed in and looked at this thread.  A book has been finished, another one started and more (my career) negotiations are upcoming later this month.  That said, it's been a hideously wet and gray spring/summer in Denver and I'm missing City of Heroes a lot.

Before shut down I played City of Heroes EVERY DAY, if only for one mission as a work break, or for a bit of adrenaline bump to push me on.  Or hours as I worked through missions while the back of my mind figured some plot point or character motivation out.

I miss the hell out of CoX, and I am not young, and aging as I type...

[Azrael]

I miss the hell out of CoX

 

Aye.  *Boots up ICON for a play...

Azrael.