Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7293945 times)

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17680 on: June 09, 2015, 11:14:11 PM »
^ I don't know about American law, but in the EU, accessing someone's computer without their permission is very illegal.

you most likely gave permission when you agreed to the EULA. if they touched ANYTHING else on your machine they could be in deep doodoo.

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17681 on: June 09, 2015, 11:43:06 PM »
you most likely gave permission when you agreed to the EULA. if they touched ANYTHING else on your machine they could be in deep doodoo.

yep, they own the client and it's content. so even in the EU the client itself is not protected even on your machine.

the ToS is very clear that we own our characters and the right to buy Subscription time and store points as available. and we have a right to that time and points that we gain or the equivalent value thereof if they wish to reimburse you and reclaim them.

We may have the content on the disks, but even the boxes do say clearly that subscriptions are required to play..

I was thinking a long while back that we could sue for the IP (or at least force them to run the server) because they sold us physical disks with the client to a game, on the grounds that when we purchased the disk they have certain responsibilities to ensure that the sale of the product is not damaged by a lack of a running server, aka we purchased the right to have access to play the game for which we bought disks.

however people here were VERY clear, that it would not fly. IF it did go to court NCSoft would probably structure the suit to end up that they pay us back for the physical disks or do a recall.

it's not as easy to sue for the online content superpacks ETC. thats a big legal grey area, for example online gambling is illegal (for the companies to allow customers from that region) in parts of the USA, however you can still buy AeriaPoints (Aeriagames) and spend them on in-game item lotteries from which you are not guaranteed an item but a chance to get an item.

gambling? online sales? game store currencies? content packs?

GREY AREA

the courts would never hear it.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17682 on: June 10, 2015, 12:24:04 AM »
^ I don't know about American law, but in the EU, accessing someone's computer without their permission is very illegal.

All NCSoft needs to do, in the scenario being discussed, is update a manifest file on their own update servers.  They aren't directly accessing your computer.  The updater is, but there exists no law I'm aware of, even in the EU, in which it is illegal to instruct a program that people willingly installed and run to do something that will make people sad.  But then again, given the legal system in the EU, its possible I might have missed that precedent and would be happy to be referred to one.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17683 on: June 10, 2015, 12:39:53 AM »
I was thinking a long while back that we could sue for the IP (or at least force them to run the server) because they sold us physical disks with the client to a game, on the grounds that when we purchased the disk they have certain responsibilities to ensure that the sale of the product is not damaged by a lack of a running server, aka we purchased the right to have access to play the game for which we bought disks.

however people here were VERY clear, that it would not fly. IF it did go to court NCSoft would probably structure the suit to end up that they pay us back for the physical disks or do a recall.

We purchased the right to access the game servers, for as long as the company was willing to provide game servers.  Nowhere did the company promise the contents of the box would contain something we could use forever.  In fact, the EULA explicitly states the company could revoke our rights to use the contents of the box at any time unilaterally.

Quote
it's not as easy to sue for the online content superpacks ETC. thats a big legal grey area, for example online gambling is illegal (for the companies to allow customers from that region) in parts of the USA, however you can still buy AeriaPoints (Aeriagames) and spend them on in-game item lotteries from which you are not guaranteed an item but a chance to get an item.

This came up on the CoH forums as well, with people suggesting superpacks were illegal because they were "gambling."  The problem is that "gambling" is a colloquial word, but in the law "gambling" is always explicitly defined.  It varies by jurisdiction, but in the State of Hawaii (where I am a resident) "gambling" is defined as:

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. Gambling does not include bona fide business transactions valid under the law of contracts, including but not limited to contracts for the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, and agreements to compensate for loss caused by the happening of chance, including but not limited to contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life, health, or accident insurance.

"Something of value" is itself defined:

"Something of value" means any money or property, any token, object, or article exchangeable for money or property, or any form of credit or promise directly or indirectly contemplating transfer of money or property or of any interest therein, or involving extension of a service or entertainment.

The contents of CoH superpacks did not contain any money or property as the law defines property, or anything exchangeable for money, or any promise of transfer of money.  About the only thing that skirts this definition would be cases where its possible to gain awards which provided subscription time, like some games do.  This particular element of the law hasn't been tested to the best of my knowledge (and I don't think anyone is particularly interested to do so in this area).

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17684 on: June 10, 2015, 12:49:47 AM »
If NCSoft pulls the plug on negotiations because of a hint of an upcoming project (that in our best estimate use of does not violate the EULA), and which details have not even been revealed yet... well I'd say they were not negotiating in good faith to begin with.

If we defer its release indefinitely because of the possibility of negotiations, then I'd say that the tactic of stringing people along with no intent of following through to keep them quiet and under control is working wonderfully.

Since we are approaching the one year mark on the announcement of the negotiations and no more news I have been wondering if this is just a delaying tactic on NCSofts part. An attempt to wear any buyers down.
 If the news of your project upsets NCSoft  the answer is simple - sell the IP and they are out of it.

Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17685 on: June 10, 2015, 12:58:40 AM »
Wait, didn't we all kick the NCSoft game launcher off of our machines shortly after shutdown, due to the fact that when the launcher updated it would automatically remove the game from our machines?

I could swear I remember that. Anyhoo, their launcher hasn't been on my machine for years. So I guess good luck to them, trying to infiltrate my machine. I guess they could do it somehow, but my second guess is that we are no more to them than ants at a picnic would be to us.

Unless money enters the equation. That and that alone would get their attention.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17686 on: June 10, 2015, 02:24:57 AM »
Wait, didn't we all kick the NCSoft game launcher off of our machines shortly after shutdown, due to the fact that when the launcher updated it would automatically remove the game from our machines?

I could swear I remember that. Anyhoo, their launcher hasn't been on my machine for years. So I guess good luck to them, trying to infiltrate my machine. I guess they could do it somehow, but my second guess is that we are no more to them than ants at a picnic would be to us.

Unless money enters the equation. That and that alone would get their attention.

Yeah, this.  I haven't seen hide nor hair of their launcher since I got a new computer a year and a half ago.  No infiltrating of my machine will be going on either.   :)

Thanks again, Codewalker, Leandro and whomever else is helping.  As long as no one trumpet blares our every movement, no one is going to care about anything.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17687 on: June 10, 2015, 02:56:57 AM »
Wait, didn't we all kick the NCSoft game launcher off of our machines shortly after shutdown, due to the fact that when the launcher updated it would automatically remove the game from our machines?

Some people did so, on the belief that could happen, but I am unaware of anyone demonstrating proof that such a thing did in fact happen or that NCSoft caused it to happen.  At some point, long after shutdown I accidentally fired up the updater in a virtual machine and at that time nothing happened, as in it had nothing to connect to.  I'm unaware of what would happen if someone were to fire it up today, but I suspect a lot more nothing would happen, because NCSoft just plain ol' shut everything down associated with the game.

Aggelakis

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17688 on: June 10, 2015, 03:09:00 AM »
Wait, didn't we all kick the NCSoft game launcher off of our machines shortly after shutdown, due to the fact that when the launcher updated it would automatically remove the game from our machines?
If you did that, for that reason, you did it for a non-valid reason. *shrugs*

The launcher does nothing now.
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Drauger9

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17689 on: June 10, 2015, 04:44:47 AM »
OH :( I've tried installing Icon before but for what ever reason (I think I didn't have i23- or i24) it didn't work. I guess, I'll try again *crosses fingers*



*edited to add: I think it's working this time. :) TYVM everyone that made ICON possible!*
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 05:10:49 AM by Drauger9 »

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17690 on: June 10, 2015, 05:50:38 AM »
you most likely gave permission when you agreed to the EULA. if they touched ANYTHING else on your machine they could be in deep doodoo.

That EULA became null and void when they terminated their side of the agreement by closing the game down.

Also, in the EU, EULA's are not legally binding documents.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17691 on: June 10, 2015, 06:26:33 AM »
That EULA became null and void when they terminated their side of the agreement by closing the game down.

Also, in the EU, EULA's are not legally binding documents.

the eula becomes invalid on dates that vary due to the wording of the eula. if they put clauses extending it to perpetuity and you agree then it will never expire. its a contract, nothing more and nothing less. contract law varies from place to place.

AnElfCalledMack

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17692 on: June 10, 2015, 07:16:10 AM »
the eula becomes invalid on dates that vary due to the wording of the eula. if they put clauses extending it to perpetuity and you agree then it will never expire. its a contract, nothing more and nothing less. contract law varies from place to place.
The EULA states that it is binding as long as the servers are running. The servers are not running, so the EULA is not binding. Now, there's an argument that this means we no longr have a license to use the software in any form. In the case of a big lawsuit, I don't know how that would go down, or even which jurisdiction it'd be tried in. But I think that, barring a full-scale reverse engineering of the server software, it's unlikely that NCSoft wants more bad publicity over a game that's not making money. If we're not making front pages ourselves, the execs probably don't want to push us there by attempting to find the precise limit of a EULA.

Blackgrue

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17693 on: June 10, 2015, 09:51:34 AM »
The EULA states that it is binding as long as the servers are running. The servers are not running, so the EULA is not binding. Now, there's an argument that this means we no longr have a license to use the software in any form. In the case of a big lawsuit, I don't know how that would go down, or even which jurisdiction it'd be tried in. But I think that, barring a full-scale reverse engineering of the server software, it's unlikely that NCSoft wants more bad publicity over a game that's not making money. If we're not making front pages ourselves, the execs probably don't want to push us there by attempting to find the precise limit of a EULA.

The jurisdiction may have issues with international treaties as well, especially with the Trans-pacific partnership which is rumored to make certain international lawsuits be handled by an international court.
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Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17694 on: June 10, 2015, 11:26:00 AM »
The EULA states that it is binding as long as the servers are running. The servers are not running, so the EULA is not binding. Now, there's an argument that this means we no longr have a license to use the software in any form. In the case of a big lawsuit, I don't know how that would go down, or even which jurisdiction it'd be tried in. But I think that, barring a full-scale reverse engineering of the server software, it's unlikely that NCSoft wants more bad publicity over a game that's not making money. If we're not making front pages ourselves, the execs probably don't want to push us there by attempting to find the precise limit of a EULA.

Technically it's not an EULA, we call it that but it's a terms of service contract. it is very clear which portions of it apply to our access to the game and which portions establish their rights indefinitely.

if the ToS was invalid the moment they shut down the servers then the little part that says they own the characters and code would also be void allowing us to just up and claim it with no hassle.

But , that is not the case. that part of the ToS which gives them claims to the client software, it's content, the official game characters, story-lines and any code associated there with. Yeah, that's still very much in effect. They made it, they legally bound it to their company, they denied us ownership of it at any time, they 'leased/licensed' us the ability to use it during the time that the servers were running,  they own it.

they can do what they want with their property regardless where it is. even without the launcher they have legal precedence if they want to be (but most likely wont go that far) a stiff corporate puckered opening on the reverse side of the average body between two possibly dirty cheeks, then they could walk into their law office and put forth an immediate request for all players to cough up the client/uninstall it from their system. after that time it would be illegal to own an installed copy of the client.

again, they probably wont go that far, but they could and have every right to. yeah it would definitely P-off a lot of gamers if that got in the news "Former COH player arrested for having client installed after recent legal uninstall deadline"

heck there'd be riots, and NCSoft knows that, which is probably our reassurance that they will never do that. just saying they technically have that legal ability.

if we push Rev eng stuff too far they will defend their IPs, typically C&D is what they do, but if for example someone made a P2P CoH server which runs from the client side of every player, a C&D would not be effective enough cause they'd have to do one per player. It's in those circumstances where they might pull the above irregardless the consequences.

The only legal way I can see to make a CoX server that we can use, is to make an entirely new and different MMO but keep the stat system and game play and deflection geometry the same, obviously names and text would have to differ, but players could install a contextual interpreter which intercepts the text and replaces it with CoX text from the mission text archives (which everyone would need a copy of) then sends that to the client. In that way we'd have the defense that the server is intended for 'lawyers the MMO' and we have no control over players doing -auth to connect CoX clients to our server as we use a similar encryption method and a similar authentication method.

but that, would be a lot of work. What plan Designation should we give it? Plan ZY? ZOMEGA?

it's a last resort if negotiations wont work.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17695 on: June 10, 2015, 01:56:07 PM »
That EULA became null and void when they terminated their side of the agreement by closing the game down.

Also, in the EU, EULA's are not legally binding documents.

Not that it really matters anymore, but there are two agreements.  One is for Coh, and the other was for the launcher.  Originally CoH had it's own launcher, which would have fallen under the CoH agreement.  By the time of the shutdown, it had moved to the common NCSoft launcher, which is separate from any particular game. 

So, the EULA for CoH itself may not apply, but the launcher is a current live, supported product, so you are agreeing to allow it access and modify your system.  I'm not a lawyer, so I suppose there is a possibility that you could say they would overstep their bounds by modifying a game that they no longer operate, but I think you would be hard pressed to make it far in court using that argument.  Unless the launcher just indiscriminately deleted the entire CoH folder, since it is conceivable, and even likely that you have non-NCSoft files contained there.  But if the launcher merely removed the executables and even PIGG files, that would be enough to prevent you from using the client, and would not violate any laws, whether US or EU.

Again, it isn't like it matters, since none of that is happening anyway.  Just a thought exercise sort of thing.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17696 on: June 10, 2015, 02:40:06 PM »
I wish that I never played COH for the simple fact that it really was a good game. A game that caused me to drop my other games because it was so fun. Now that it is gone, it still reminds me how superior it is to other games out on the market even today(including other super hero games). It's already been close to a year and I'll wait at least another year, but must admit that if something doesn't get done in another year then NcSoft IS stringing us along and just wants us to hush and go away. If this happens then yes I will continue not to touch another NcSoft game.

Voltixdark

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17697 on: June 10, 2015, 03:02:58 PM »
I wish that I never played COH for the simple fact that it really was a good game. A game that caused me to drop my other games because it was so fun. Now that it is gone, it still reminds me how superior it is to other games out on the market even today(including other super hero games). It's already been close to a year and I'll wait at least another year, but must admit that if something doesn't get done in another year then NcSoft IS stringing us along and just wants us to hush and go away. If this happens then yes I will continue not to touch another NcSoft game.

I agree. The best game. For the simple fact that not only could we do missions, we could talk and chill and play around. Go Trick or treating and and fight with your friends. Customization plentiful and creative. This is the best game because it is a diverse game with many options of play and themes. You can't really find that in another mmo. I honestly wish Paragon studios could come back and get to creating more content, but that ain't going to happen.

pinballdave

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17698 on: June 10, 2015, 03:10:12 PM »
I had so many characters across three accounts that I am not sure I can remember all of them. Probably half (or more) of the way more that 50 toons were between level 10-30, but every single one of them had the last name "Remaugen". I will try to remake the core toons first, there were some of them that were more important to me. . .

Some of us made spreadsheets :)

Remaugen

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17699 on: June 10, 2015, 03:21:51 PM »
Some of us made spreadsheets :)

That smacks of far too much effort!
Generally speaking, I am far too lazy for that. . .
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.