New efforts!

[Linuial]

I think it is more likely NCSoft follows the code of Sinanju than Bushido.

Can you expand on that?  The only thing I am finding on it is: "Sinanju is a fictional Korean martial art of a cult paperback book series" (Wikipedia) and mentions of it for Gundam (Google).  I'm not finding any non-fiction information.  Can you refer me to any information on it? 

[Linuial]

My third thought is that the only thing we *really* need to proceed with re-creating CoX as it was at the time of shutdown, is a written (and therefore binding) promise from NcSoft not to SUE anyone, in any court, for using it or any of its copyrighted names.  It could be paid for, but it doesn't have to be.  If we had that, the whole knotty problem of "licensing" would become a non-issue. 

All we have to do is to convince NcSoft to give "us" (someone, anyone) such a piece of paper (or the electronic equivalent), for any price, or none, for any reason whatsoever. 

[Arcana]

Can you expand on that?  The only thing I am finding on it is: "Sinanju is a fictional Korean martial art of a cult paperback book series" (Wikipedia) and mentions of it for Gundam (Google).  I'm not finding any non-fiction information.  Can you refer me to any information on it?

Nope, you got the entire gist of it.

It is highly unlikely that a major Korean company would officially adopt Bushido as its guiding principles, because Bushido is an explicitly and uniquely Japanese cultural concept.  And Korea and Japan have a ... let's say complicated history.  For NCSoft or any other major Korean company to say that they operate by the principles of Bushido would be comparable to KFC flying the Saudi Arabian flag outside of all of its restaurants.  I think a Korean company would sooner claim to be following a fictional Korean philosophy invented by an American than a Japanese martial philosophy.  I could be wrong, though, if anyone knows of a major Korean business that emphasizes Bushido by name.

[LateNights]

There are no shenanigans, at least not in the sense that anyone is acting disingenuously.  At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the negotiations are over and have failed.  I don't think anyone is saying on the record, "The negotiations are over and have failed," because 1) they want to leave the possibility of acquiring the game in the future open, and 2) because that's kind of a sucky thing to hear; it's demoralizing and we don't like being demoralizing.  But I assure you that there is no intent to yank people's... whatever.

Now, having said that, keep in mind that I'm not on the negotiating team, so that is merely my opinion.  Take it as a data point, but don't write it in stone or anything.

Oh, and if you are demoralized, just remember what I keep telling everybody.  They can say no a thousand times, but all it takes is for them to say yes once.

After reading your previous post I'm unsure whether I'm reading too much into your second post or not...

[slickriptide]

Am I completely insane...?  Or "crazy like a fox"?

I might suggest that you spend some time learning a bit more about Korean gaming culture, before you decide on the answer to that question.

Korean gamers as a whole are much more what we would call "mercenary" about their games. They're accustomed to games that come and go, they're accustomed to being shamelessly exploited for profit, and they're accustomed to being highly competitive whether that means playing against each other or it means switching from one game to another as "better" games come out.

We have it on reasonable authority that the management at NCSoft was both confused and a bit taken aback by the reaction of the North American players of City of Heroes, and this gaming culture I've described is part of the reason. Games get shut down all the time in Korea, and new games pop up to take their place.

Heck - just recently, when Blizzard made some significant changes to Hearthstone that made a lot of players unhappy, the Korean players didn't sit around complaining about how "their game" was being screwed up. They organized hundreds, maybe thousands of players to do a mass chargeback of the money they'd spent on the game, which worked because they charged back to Google, who just automatically refunded them and then charged back to Blizzard.

Those players didn't care that their accounts would get banned. They just said, "Sucks to be you, Blizzard." and went on to a new game. Meanwhile, Blizzard had to make some concessions to try and hold on to the players that had not participated in the "event", but only because they had paid Blizzard directly and would have a more difficult time getting refunded.

Korea doesn't see these things the same way we do. Korean companies don't approach the business the way an American company might. Your feelings and mine don't enter into their equations at all. The gaming business is a different business over there, never mind that the culture is a different culture.

From the sound of things, the people pursuing the negotiations, assuming such negotiations are still ongoing, those people are already doing things "the Korean way" as much as they reasonably can. From the sound of things, "waiting around for an answer" is a big part of that "Korean way". I know it's easy to grasp at a straw and imagine that nobody has thought of that before, but believe me - the people who are pursuing this stuff have been doing so since before the game was turned off and if you can think of it, they've already tried it.

[Brigadine]

Thats kind of my thought if thats the case.  It's bad enough for me that I for once think poorly of a game genre in the way that I do mmorpgs.  Even the other genres I'm not fond of, at least they have something to look forward to.  But MMORPGs have nothing.  The scam is up and in the open to me.  Thats why I think the talks have to succeed and there has to be some means to say "they failed".  If NCSoft has an NDA for that, it shows they are underhanded and irresponsible as a publisher.  I am STILL boycotting them, but if the talks failed and they had to cover that up, I won't be spending money on them.  Because it's mmorpg publishers that ensure that mmorpgs cannot ever stand the test of time, because they demand everything be a skinner box clone, and because they STILL refuse to ever do anything beyond that.

Honestly, silence looks a LOT worse than just saying 'yo screw off you measly peasants'. NC cant be that dumb but idk....

[darkgob]

Here's a general question on NDAs: how tongue-in-cheek, "wink wink, nudge nudge" can you be and not be in trouble for violating an NDA?

In the example above, it sounds like darkgob wants the team to say: "Well, we can't say that the talks have failed, because that's part of the NDA. So we're not going to say it. WINK."

I am absolutely not saying that I want the negotiation team to "dance around" the NDA.  What I'm saying is that if there IS no NDA, and they're merely keeping silent to avoid disappointing people, then they need to knock that off and say something.

[Brigadine]

I am absolutely not saying that I want the negotiation team to "dance around" the NDA.  What I'm saying is that if there IS no NDA, and they're merely keeping silent to avoid disappointing people, then they need to knock that off and say something.

Yeah, it hurts worse than knowing the ship is sunk... cause at least then we wont feel bad about swimming to shore...

[RGladden]

I must have missed something;  What is Irish Girl "up to?"

[MaxDefense]

Well If Tony says that he thinks talks are done that's good enough for me

I guess we wait for Nate to confirm and hope that a spiritual successor materializes :)

[ivanhedgehog]

Here's a general question on NDAs: how tongue-in-cheek, "wink wink, nudge nudge" can you be and not be in trouble for violating an NDA?

In the example above, it sounds like darkgob wants the team to say: "Well, we can't say that the talks have failed, because that's part of the NDA. So we're not going to say it. WINK."

if negotiations are 1 email every 2 or 3 months, can you still say they are ongoing? technically yes, but in reality, no

[Felderburg]

I am absolutely not saying that I want the negotiation team to "dance around" the NDA.  What I'm saying is that if there IS no NDA, and they're merely keeping silent to avoid disappointing people, then they need to knock that off and say something.

For some reason I read your initial thing as a situation with an NDA in place. But yeah, with no NDA, no reason to not say talks failed.

[worldweary]

For some reason I read your initial thing as a situation with an NDA in place. But yeah, with no NDA, no reason to not say talks failed.

If there were no NDA in place then they would have given updates.If there is a NDA then Tony and others
have said they would still be able to let us know.

[Thunder Glove]

As noted earlier in this topic, it's possible, but unlikely, that there's an NDA that wouldn't allow them to say the negotiations are done..  However, unless it's ridiculously strict (which is also possible, but even more unlikely), it wouldn't be breaking any NDAs for Nate to say something like "I'm going to go back to working on City of Titans full-time".   No mention of any negotiations, but the implication would be that he's not working on anything else (like, say, negotiations).

And I'd rather know that it's done than have them pretend that it's still going on if it actually ended.

... I just want the game back.  I haven't enjoyed any game as much as CoH.

[Arcana]

Well If Tony says that he thinks talks are done that's good enough for me

I guess we wait for Nate to confirm and hope that a spiritual successor materializes :)

If you actually believe TonyV's supposition is true, and it is a not unreasonable one, then you're not going to get that confirmation.

[MaxDefense]

If you actually believe TonyV's supposition is true, and it is a not unreasonable one, then you're not going to get that confirmation.

If Nate could respond I am sure he would and if the NDA is why he can not then so be it

We wait

[Linuial]

It is highly unlikely that a major Korean company would officially adopt Bushido as its guiding principles, because Bushido is an explicitly and uniquely Japanese cultural concept. 

I am aware of the fact that differing Oriental countries have long and nasty histories between them.  Just try calling a citizen of England a "frog" and watch the fireworks.  :-) 

I mentioned that I had read this.  I was throwing out another hare-brained thought in the forum, that maybe the reason NcSoft refused to sell the IP when all it would be to them was "free money" (and a lot of it!) might be because if they released ownership of the code, it might contain code they are currently using in other active games, which they wouldn't want in anyone else's hands, because it would make it harder for them to defend that code in court if someone stole it (from elsewhere).  Someone chided me, as you are doing here, and told me the explanation about Bushido.  I was using *his* terminology, knowing it was a Japanese word and ideology, as I didn't know what the Korean equivalent would be. 

Nothing I am posting here is fine-tuned, or well thought out.  I'm not egotistical enough to think I, and I alone, can come up with some here-to-fore unconsidered idea, nor with a solution.  All I'm doing is throwing out thoughts, as I said.  Spur-of-the-moment.  Maybe it might trigger another thought, and another...you never know.  Isn't that *why* we all sit around reading and posting?  Because "two heads are better than one"?  And a hundred...or a thousand...should be even better. 

I have been frustrated for years, since the shutdown, because nothing NcSoft did made any sense, nor has any explanation (up until now) been offered that made their actions make sense.  People are offering them vast sums of money, for something they don't want.  Why have they consistently turned it down?  That's been the big question since day one.  Defending ownership of their code is the first idea I've come up with in all these years that actually makes sense.  A "warrior code" of business, like a Korean version of Bushido, would also make sense.  If you have a third alternative explanation, please share it. 

Otherwise, it would seem that the owners of NcSoft are totally insane, something I do NOT believe.  There is a reason for their actions.  If speaking out publicly and giving us that explanation would imperil Titan's ability to negotiate effectively, then I don't WANT them to tell us.  But in the meantime....

IT'S DRIVING ME INSANE.  And I see no harm in speculating, and hearing other CoX fanatics' opinions and alternate suggestions while that is going on. 

[Linuial]

I might suggest that you spend some time learning a bit more about Korean gaming culture, before you decide on the answer to that question.  Korean gamers as a whole are much more what we would call "mercenary" about their games. They're accustomed to games that come and go, they're accustomed to being shamelessly exploited for profit, and they're accustomed to being highly competitive whether that means playing against each other or it means switching from one game to another as "better" games come out.

I appreciate your input.  Here's the thing that is still bothering me...if people in Korea are more mercenary than we are...WHY has NcSoft consistently turned down every offer to buy something that is totally worthless to them?  They don't want it.  They don't want to make money on it.  They don't want to sell it and make money off of it.  They don't appear to have any interest in resurrecting it themselves, so why play "dog in a manger"?  "Mercenary" would imply money-hungry, money-driven.  Their actions indicate the exact opposite.  The "mercenary" explanation doesn't make anything any clearer. 

The "warrior code" explanation someone offered actually made sense.  Someone posted that in reply to *my* suggestion that maybe it might be a copyright issue...that code used in CoX might still be in use in other, still active games, and releasing the code to *anyone* would imperil their ability to defend their ownership of that code in court if it were ever required.  You offer the "mercenary" explanation, but, really, it *doesn't* explain why they would turn down money for something that has no other value for them. 

Any other ideas? 

[Felderburg]

However, unless it's ridiculously strict (which is also possible, but even more unlikely), it wouldn't be breaking any NDAs for Nate to say something like "I'm going to go back to working on City of Titans full-time".   No mention of any negotiations, but the implication would be that he's not working on anything else (like, say, negotiations).

See, that gets to my question about how "sneaky" people can be to get around NDAs (not just here, but generally).

[Excidia]

"Mercenary" would imply money-hungry, money-driven.  Their actions indicate the exact opposite.  The "mercenary" explanation doesn't make anything any clearer. 

Don't think of it in a monetarial sense, think of it as a lack of sentiment.  They don't care who runs the game they are currently playing.  In a week/month/year they will be playing something else.

We want CoX back because we love the game and nothing else is good enough.  They don't have that restriction in their mindset.

Also slickriptide was talking about Korean gamers, not Korean businesses.

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