New efforts!

[Twisted Toon]

2 men walk into a bar, one mans says "I think ill have some h2o". the second man says "I think ill have some H2O too". the second man died

A Dyslexic man walked into a bra.

[LateNights]

And yes, I'm being deliberately vague because even now I'm wondering if anyone (besides Codewalker of course) knows what this was.  It was really obscure unless you were into the technical minutia of the game mechanics.

Hover really negated it completely?

I suppose the lack of proper animations made it seem otherwise.

As to what it was, I'm unsure - just shocked it was as complete an effect as you say.

(Not saying you're wrong - I only used hover a lot with my EM tank)

[Arcana]

Hover really negated it completely?

I suppose the lack of proper animations made it seem otherwise.

As to what it was, I'm unsure - just shocked it was as complete an effect as you say.

(Not saying you're wrong - I only used hover a lot with my EM tank)

Hover didn't prevent knockback itself.  If you didn't have knockback protection, you would appear to get knocked, and although it was dramatically reduced by hover's inertia you did get shoved a bit.  However, you could still attack or use other powers pretty much unimpeded.

[Codewalker]

And yes, I'm being deliberately vague because even now I'm wondering if anyone (besides Codewalker of course) knows what this was.  It was really obscure unless you were into the technical minutia of the game mechanics.

Shall I place my answer in a sealed envelope?  ;D

Maybe this will suffice... The p---- -u--- would not be --o-e---d if the -n--t- had the -A---O-- s-----c-- --t -e-.

[Soul Resonance]

I have no idea why, but my mind's ah' naggin' me and seeing some things in this thread/around..

This is still a thing right? The negotiations? Thanks in advance :D. Also, isn't it only 3 people who are actually the negotiations team?.

Again, been naggin' myself mentally to ask these ?'s  ;D

[Taceus Jiwede]

I have no idea why, but my mind's ah' naggin' me and seeing some things in this thread/around..

This is still a thing right? The negotiations? Thanks in advance :D. Also, isn't it only 3 people who are actually the negotiations team?.

Again, been naggin' myself mentally to ask these ?'s  ;D

Of all the ways to ask.  That is probably the most polite and respectful way.

I have no involvement so anything I say is simply just second hand information.  As far as everyone knows the negotiation's are still on going.  As to where they are at is unknown, and how much longer they will continue is unknown.  But there has been no official white flag either.  No one has stated or even hinted that the talks are going to cease or have already ceased.  The general, and fairly reasonable, assumption is that unless heard otherwise the talks are still on-going.  There is no reason to believe they wouldn't let us know that the talks are over unless some clause in the NDA states they can't.  A clause that is generally filed under "possible, but probably not likely"

But who is to say for sure.  Some people choose to remain optimistic, some choose to be pessimistic.  Not much more we can do besides those 2 options.

[Arcana]

Shall I place my answer in a sealed envelope?  ;D

Maybe this will suffice... The p---- -u--- would not be --o-e---d if the -n--t- had the -A---O-- s-----c-- --t -e-.

The pagan bugle would not be shovelled if the inmate had the GAZEBOS spherical cat pet?  No, that's why accuracy buffs only stacked with themselves once.

[JoshexProxy]

The KB effect itself doesn't function as a hold.  KB doesn't actually prevent you from acting.  Its actually something totally different that prevents you from acting, and its something hover didn't have.  That's why hover granted something that looked like KB immunity, when it actually granted freedom to act while being knocked.  None of this has anything to do with the physics engine, which handled a completely different aspect of the side effects of knock.

And yes, I'm being deliberately vague because even now I'm wondering if anyone (besides Codewalker of course) knows what this was.  It was really obscure unless you were into the technical minutia of the game mechanics.

I can see you took my remark as a literal, I was going for a non-literal comparison, a metaphor.

I'm not claiming to fully understand how the devs made KB, I'm just describing the predictable interaction. without hover if KB hits, the target cannot perform actions, thus it's functioning as a hold though it's something completely different ( a much easier and simple way of looking at it). the physics motion may be something entirely different in code but during the actual KB it's blended-in and functions as the timer (again just a simple way to mentally code it for ease), when the motions stops and the recovery animation is played then the target can do things again.

[Vee]

The pagan bugle would not be shovelled if the inmate had the GAZEBOS spherical cat pet?  No, that's why accuracy buffs only stacked with themselves once.

Congratulations Arcana for being literally the only person on the internet who'd choose 'pagan' as their 5 letter word starting with 'p'.

[Arcana]

I can see you took my remark as a literal, I was going for a non-literal comparison, a metaphor.

I'm not claiming to fully understand how the devs made KB, I'm just describing the predictable interaction. without hover if KB hits, the target cannot perform actions, thus it's functioning as a hold though it's something completely different ( a much easier and simple way of looking at it). the physics motion may be something entirely different in code but during the actual KB it's blended-in and functions as the timer (again just a simple way to mentally code it for ease), when the motions stops and the recovery animation is played then the target can do things again.

I didn't so much take your comment as literal, as I was reinforcing the point I originally made: if it seemed simple to you, its probably because you were unaware of how it worked.  Since your response to that was an incomplete and erroneous description of how it worked, that basically demonstrates the point.

As I mentioned, the physics engine component is not directly related to the reason why you cannot attack.  It can kinda sorta sometimes be related, but usually when it comes to players it does not have a major effect.  To put it more directly, if you turned the physics engine off completely in City of Heroes, being knocked would still normally prevent you from attacking.

Also, holds detoggle by default.  Holds do more than prevent you from attacking.

Here's a hint as to what's going on.  Poison Trap originally had a lot more damage mitigation than it was intended to.

[Codewalker]

To put it more directly, if you turned the physics engine off completely in City of Heroes, being knocked would still normally prevent you from attacking.

Here's another hint. If you could shapeshift into arbitrary NPCs at will -- any entity in the game, not just enemies -- you might find that it affects whether or not you can attack after being knocked back.

[Codewalker]

Here's a hint as to what's going on.  Poison Trap originally had a lot more damage mitigation than it was intended to.

I'm not sure that was ever completely fixed in the mastermind version. I remember something about /Traps MMs having a chance of preventing Tyrant from using flow lightning in really hard way attempts, especially if multiple were stacked...

[LateNights]

Hover didn't prevent knockback itself.  If you didn't have knockback protection, you would appear to get knocked, and although it was dramatically reduced by hover's inertia you did get shoved a bit.  However, you could still attack or use other powers pretty much unimpeded.

Actually I was more referring to the ability to act unimpeded rather than the knockback itself.

I had always thought there was a (very), brief moment that some mechanic of being KB'd still took effect while hovering, however it was greatly reduced - but like I mentioned that must have been due to the animations not playing correctly?

Here's another hint. If you could shapeshift into arbitrary NPCs at will -- any entity in the game, not just enemies -- you might find that it affects whether or not you can attack after being knocked back.

Rikti drones could still attack after being knocked right?

[Arcana]

Actually I was more referring to the ability to act unimpeded rather than the knockback itself.

I had always thought there was a (very), brief moment that some mechanic of being KB'd still took effect while hovering, however it was greatly reduced - but like I mentioned that must have been due to the animations not playing correctly?

Almost correct.  There was in fact a KB animation that was intended to be played when hovering, it caused the player to do a backflip.  And if you took your hands off the keyboard and let yourself get hit by an attack with KB, it would visually play correctly.  Sometimes it did not visually play correctly, but interestingly that wasn't the cause of the problem but a symptom of the problem.

I consider this to be one of the more profound bugs in all of City of Heroes, because it is a subset of a much more fundamental superset problem that plagued the foundations of how powers were designed and implemented in City of Heroes from the beginning of time, a problem the devs didn't fully appreciate and try to address until years after the game was released.  In fact, of all the ways in which I affected the game, I believe my greatest impact was laying the groundwork for discovering this fundamental problem.

[JoshexProxy]

Almost correct.  There was in fact a KB animation that was intended to be played when hovering, it caused the player to do a backflip.  And if you took your hands off the keyboard and let yourself get hit by an attack with KB, it would visually play correctly.  Sometimes it did not visually play correctly, but interestingly that wasn't the cause of the problem but a symptom of the problem.

I consider this to be one of the more profound bugs in all of City of Heroes, because it is a subset of a much more fundamental superset problem that plagued the foundations of how powers were designed and implemented in City of Heroes from the beginning of time, a problem the devs didn't fully appreciate and try to address until years after the game was released.  In fact, of all the ways in which I affected the game, I believe my greatest impact was laying the groundwork for discovering this fundamental problem.

sounds like an action/effect sequencing/priority problem. I had a few of those so far.

[LateNights]

Almost correct.  There was in fact a KB animation that was intended to be played when hovering, it caused the player to do a backflip.  And if you took your hands off the keyboard and let yourself get hit by an attack with KB, it would visually play correctly.  Sometimes it did not visually play correctly, but interestingly that wasn't the cause of the problem but a symptom of the problem.

I consider this to be one of the more profound bugs in all of City of Heroes, because it is a subset of a much more fundamental superset problem that plagued the foundations of how powers were designed and implemented in City of Heroes from the beginning of time, a problem the devs didn't fully appreciate and try to address until years after the game was released.  In fact, of all the ways in which I affected the game, I believe my greatest impact was laying the groundwork for discovering this fundamental problem.

Ok, so hover completely negated the effect of KB'd in as far as not being able to act / attack or not?

And can you tell us what the difference is between that effect and a true hold or mez?

(The Kb itself not including hover, I think my previous question clears up that point?)

[Baaleos]

I think what he means is that
When you are not hovering, a knockback, or knockup would have the effect of forcing the animation of getting flung backwards on your character.
During the time when you are flying through the air towards the ground, and then going ker-plunk, you are unable to attack or act.

However, when hovering and you get knocked back, the animation is a quick little backwards flip, which does not impede you as much.
Eg: You are able to attack again, almost instantly.

A true hold/mez uses mez/hold protection and cooldown to determine if the hold/mez is applied, knockbacks would be considered pseudo-holds, but they run off knockback/knockup protection, and possibly have their own cooldown on when they can be reapplied.
Pseudo-holds because your not really held, your just delayed in when you can act again - eg: you need to wait for the animation to play for you hitting the ground, then getting back up.

I miss flight and hover.
I remember I used to have friendly fights with my friend in Sirens Call.
I would use Gale from Storm Summoning, and see him flying backwards, or just see him getting knocked back a little while he was flying/hovering.

[LateNights]

I think what he means is that
When you are not hovering, a knockback, or knockup would have the effect of forcing the animation of getting flung backwards on your character.
During the time when you are flying through the air towards the ground, and then going ker-plunk, you are unable to attack or act.

However, when hovering and you get knocked back, the animation is a quick little backwards flip, which does not impede you as much.
Eg: You are able to attack again, almost instantly.

A true hold/mez uses mez/hold protection and cooldown to determine if the hold/mez is applied, knockbacks would be considered pseudo-holds, but they run off knockback/knockup protection, and possibly have their own cooldown on when they can be reapplied.
Pseudo-holds because your not really held, your just delayed in when you can act again - eg: you need to wait for the animation to play for you hitting the ground, then getting back up.

I miss flight and hover.
I remember I used to have friendly fights with my friend in Sirens Call.
I would use Gale from Storm Summoning, and see him flying backwards, or just see him getting knocked back a little while he was flying/hovering.

Actually there's two parts to this, one is hover and why it was useful in regards to knockback - I'm aware of it happening but unsure exactly why.

That leads us to the second part, Arcana and Codewalker have alluded to it, and I'm asking for a definitive answer as to what it is and if it has any relation to the hover "bug".

Also, was the issue itself a bug, or was it a previously unknown mez effect?

But thanks for playing.

[Biz]

However, when hovering and you get knocked back, the animation is a quick little backwards flip, which does not impede you as much.
Eg: You are able to attack again, almost instantly.

I may be remembering wrong, but I believe I actually was able to perform attacks WHILE doing the quick little backwards flip. For some reason I have a very specific memory of the power bolt animation going off while I was mid flip. Maybe I had activated the power right before getting hit with KB and the animation was still underway as I got flipped.

[Soul Resonance]

Of all the ways to ask.  That is probably the most polite and respectful way.

I have no involvement so anything I say is simply just second hand information.  As far as everyone knows the negotiation's are still on going.  As to where they are at is unknown, and how much longer they will continue is unknown.  But there has been no official white flag either.  No one has stated or even hinted that the talks are going to cease or have already ceased.  The general, and fairly reasonable, assumption is that unless heard otherwise the talks are still on-going.  There is no reason to believe they wouldn't let us know that the talks are over unless some clause in the NDA states they can't.  A clause that is generally filed under "possible, but probably not likely"

But who is to say for sure.  Some people choose to remain optimistic, some choose to be pessimistic.  Not much more we can do besides those 2 options.

Thank you :). That's all I ask for really, just to hear this. I personally am optimistic and will be forever, as CoH is too good to be shut down(personally, and I know I might get flak for this) but I think it's good we're going to be stuck at i23/i24(maybe?), Incarnates were, imo, getting waaay outta hand. i23 is great, it finishes the praet. war, it adds a new zone, some QoL things...even a few IOs! :).