New efforts!

[Solitaire]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

[Vee]

For me it'd be legacy, Apr, cot, hav, valiance

[darkgob]

I think the question was what do you want from EACH of the games, not which game you want most.  At least that's how I interpreted it.  If not, then...that's a tough one.  I guess as a CoT backer I really want that the most just because I don't want my money to have been spent for nothing.  At a very close second, Legacy CoH, followed in an even closer third by Atlas Park Revival (since it's a taller order than simply bringing I23 back up).  I don't care about Valiance Online and, uh, no comment on that other one.

My original answer:

• CoH Legacy: I23/I24 (both, just because I24 wasn't officially released; consider it a permanent frozen Beta server)
• Valiance Online: Don't care
• City of Titans: A City of Heroes-like that isn't trash (*ahemchampionsahem*).  Improvements on stuff that CoH never fixed either due to low priority or delicate spaghetti code that no one wanted to touch (bases being a prime example), or simply due to the fact that the game shut down before the fixes could be implemented.  Some sort of IP crossover with APR as speculated would be neat I guess but I could live without it.
• Heroes and Villains: lol
• Atlas Park Revival: I guess the ideal would be I24 in a state where continued development could and would occur, along the lines of what we know the devs had planned down the line.

[hurple]

And?*  That doesn't say a damn thing about the prospective new devs.  My point is that this whole "nobody could ever live up to the CoH devs" is complete nonsense because they're weren't some mystical perfect dev team that could only ever happen once (the team wasn't even the same people from the start of CoH to the end).  It's also really bizarre hearing that from avel considering he was arguing against that very idea just a couple pages ago.

*By the way, don't interpret this as me even agreeing with your premise, because the CoH devs objectively did not always listen to the players.  They did at least communicate with the playerbase, for better or for worse (usually for better but not always), which is definitely above and beyond what the devs for a lot of other games will do outside of a community representative (and even then CoH was still better, especially during the Reign of Zwil).

Are there other games where the devs actively play the game on their off-time?  I know of a number of times I wound up on a mission team with a dev or two in it.

I am seriously asking, I am curios about the answer.

[Solitaire]

I think the question was what do you want from EACH of the games, not which game you want most.  At least that's how I interpreted it.

Interpreted correctly, but maybe I didn't phrase the question correctly  ;)

And thank you for the reply, I have similar wishes to yourself darkgob with regards to CoH Legacy & Atlas Park Revival.

[hurple]

Huh? I'm lost. What was I supposed to have been arguing against? The old CoH dev team that existed at the end would be best to pick up the game if we ever got it back because there would be less error in continuity likely and they have more knowledge of the existing software and mechanics (with the obvious exceptions of developers who had previously worked on the game). The only thing I recall possibly arguing against is the old game engine. That's because the old engine was becoming increasingly difficult to support and update and was apparently making some features the dev team wanted difficult or impossible to add. But the engine isn't the game. It's just the means to realize it. Since the source code apparently isn't part of the deal this becomes even more of a problem. I'm not sure if that affects the graphics and other assets as they aren't code. Same for the underlying game mechanic, lore, and story content.

The truth is, what made CoX so "special" that we are all holding on and wanting back so bad is a combination of all of the above.  The devs were part of that, and how they treated the players with respect.  The players were part of that, and how they turned Paragon City into a community.  The gameplay was part of that, how the mechanics of combat, and the economy and the plethora of playstyles allowed, even the look and style of the environment and the huge variations of environments available was part of it (but they needed to add an underwater area and more alternate earths imo).  And, the lore was part of it, the city had a rich, detailed and *interesting* story(s). 

No one part was more important than the others, and most other games fall short in at least one of those areas.

[Ironwolf]

Interpreted correctly, but maybe I didn't phrase the question correctly  ;)

And thank you for the reply, I have similar wishes to yourself darkgob with regards to CoH Legacy & Atlas Park Revival.

Awesome Opossum was a dev that was in our SG!

No one knew until the closure announcement when he came out of the Dev closet.

[Dr. Bad Guy]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

Yes please!

[Vee]

Interpreted correctly, but maybe I didn't phrase the question correctly  ;)

And thank you for the reply, I have similar wishes to yourself darkgob with regards to CoH Legacy & Atlas Park Revival.

Ah yes.  I read  it  as which from the following list did I want most, then ordered them instead of selecting  :).

I want something similar to darkgob as well but in general I want the basics of what made coh different. Things like no holy Trinity, streamlined but deep gear/crafting system with no degrading/repair and no constant gear grind, hidden rolls,  not having to manually pick up drops, gear that doesn't change your look when equipped, power sets that play/feel differently from each other and are all viable, freedom of power selection/direction within sets, double blind market, a leveling experience that's varied and fun, no huge disconnect between leveling and end game, no rush to end game, no super long raids, pick up and play solo/team, global chat/friends across servers/factions, fast travel, wide difficulty range solo or teamed, flashback system, sidekick system, kinaesthetic feel to the combat (tough one there - coh didn't just feel like pushing buttons), bases, ability to go afk on solo mishes without respawns killing me... Could easily go on  ;D

[Angel Phoenix77]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

I want Legacy, Atlas Park Revival, City of titans, VO, and then Heroes and villains.

[duane]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

I would love to send a regular subscription to 4 of those games

[worldweary]

CoH Legacy.The game had many many years left in it.The others will pass or fail based on their on merits not because they have some connection to CoH.Like others have said CoH was a happy mistake.I wonder if people trying to correct too many of them would what they make be as fun.

[darkgob]

CoH Legacy.The game had many many years left in it.The others will pass or fail based on their on merits not because they have some connection to CoH.Like others have said CoH was a happy mistake.I wonder if people trying to correct too many of them would what they make be as fun.

I don't expect that would be any more of a problem than it was for the actual CoH devs, who continually corrected mistakes that were made earlier in the game's development.  Because, you know, that's how active game development works.

The game's mistakes were not "happy mistakes".  They were flaws and the game was successful in spite of them, not because of them.  Take off the rose-colored glasses.

[sindyr]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy - I24 if at all possible, otherwise I23
• Valiance Online - a game as mechanically close to CoH I24 as possible
• City of Titans - a game as mechanically close to CoH I24 as possible
• Heroes and Villains - a game as mechanically close to CoH I24 as possible
• Atlas Park Revival - a game as mechanically close to CoH I24 as possible

I want my CoX I24! ;p

[WildFire15]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

I'm just sitting, waiting and seeing. I'd love to see CoH Legacy being i24 but can live with i23. As for the 'new projects' and Revival, I want to see a few lessons learnt from CoH and other modern MMOs and implemented/corrected. Basic combat, customization and powers were perfect, as was story telling which didn't stick with one big story that covered the whole game with you as the one and only true hero (loving FFXIV at the moment but can't take the story seriously at all) but less environmental repetition (in both instances and main world) and a little more movement in combat (something like FFXIV) would be great.

[Soul Resonance]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

• Legacy
• APR
  
• CoT

[avelworldcreator]

The assertion some have made that CoT cannot possibly ever be a suitable replacement for CoH because none of the original devs are involved, especially if there are people involved who never even played CoH.  In essence, holding them CoH devs up as "the holies" whose work cannot ever be superseded.

I don't know that this is necessarily true, especially since nobody from the shutdown dev team has touched the game code in over 3 years.  There were even large swathes of the code that were not understood by the shutdown dev team because it was old code that was never commented.  Essentially you're arguing that the last active dev team for CoH would be the best candidates to reverse engineer the game despite being 3+ years removed from their work and not having access to any internal Paragon Studios documentation.  This really does not put them at a significantly greater advantage than the most knowledgeable members of the former playerbase (who I hope are actually the ones spearheading this).

It is indeed former players spearheading this. We snagged one or two people later on who never played the game later just for technical things but none of these contribute to the game play mechanics. For example we have an outside contractor to do some work on our toons bodies because he has the technical skills, or just the time, we currently lack. This is normal outsourcing. We give them the specs and they do the work. I would not be surprised if Paragon Studios didn't do that themselves. It's pretty common practice. Remember our original team formed on these very forums months BEFORE the shutdown.

[avelworldcreator]

Wait, now you're throwing around this nonsense too?  The CoH devs were never perfect, sometimes they were even corrected by players about the fundamentals of their own damn game.

Not saying they were perfect just that they already have more direct experience in actually doing doing development work or running it without having to spend a lot of time going over the story plots, lore documents, or even reading an instruction manual. Let's drop you into doing what they did cold turkey and see how well you do.

[Soul Resonance]

Just curious what people want the most from the following, as there seems to be a range of possibilities for the future.

• CoH Legacy
• Valiance Online
• City of Titans
• Heroes and Villains
• Atlas Park Revival

Not sure if this is gonna be a double post but: This is what I feel will be the order in which I play:

• Legacy

- Relaunch until port to:

• APR

-This'll most likely launch hand-in-hand with:

• COT

-Will be played along with APR

• VO

-I mean, there's already CO...Not sure if this game was in early production before CO or after..

[/list][/list][/list][/list]

[darkgob]

It is indeed former players spearheading this. We snagged one or two people later on who never played the game later just for technical things but none of these contribute to the game play mechanics. For example we have an outside contractor to do some work on our toons bodies because he has the technical skills, or just the time, we currently lack. This is normal outsourcing. We give them the specs and they do the work. I would not be surprised if Paragon Studios didn't do that themselves. It's pretty common practice. Remember our original team formed on these very forums months BEFORE the shutdown.

I was not referring to Missing Worlds Media, I was referring to the mysterious would-be devs, whose names I hope soon become known just so I can actually have a specific thing to call them and write my posts less awkwardly.

Not saying they were perfect just that they already have more direct experience in actually doing doing development work or running it without having to spend a lot of time going over the story plots, lore documents, or even reading an instruction manual. Let's drop you into doing what they did cold turkey and see how well you do.

You know absolutely nothing about whoever's on the team that wants to put Legacy CoH up and get APR going (Irish Girl aside), for all you know they do actually have previous game development experience.  You got all prickly when people made sweeping assumptions about the CoT devs, then you go off and make sweeping assumptions about people whose identities are shrouded in NDA secrecy.

At any rate, all of the materials you described will have to be reviewed by whoever puts Humpty Dumpty back together again anyway, because even if the old Paragon gang has reunited they no longer have access to any of that information, it's sitting in an NCSoft vault somewhere, much of it was developed by people who were never even employed by Paragon Studios (i.e., Cryptic employees), and they've been away from it for over 3 years.  Even the active CoH devs by their own admission used ParagonWiki, you can bet a reunited Paragon with only old memories to rely on would have to do the same.  Any other dev team worth its salt will be doing the same.

I do not have any game development experience, in fact if we're being quite frank I don't have very much experience in doing anything successfully or otherwise, so no, I would not be likely to succeed in reverse-engineering the game.  But we're not talking about me (although your attempted ad hominem is admirable), we're talking about what I can only assume are competent individuals who can maybe even spell competent correctly on their first try.

God I don't know what the hell I'm even arguing about anymore, I think I've somehow managed to smoothly transition between several different arguers within the same argument without them realizing I'm still in the previous argument and without me realizing they're not making the previous argument.