New efforts!

[LaughingAlex]

I actually had fun with the incarnate trials, but I think it was because they had about the right pace for me to.  Only about half an hour for each of them, save the underworld which to me was a bit to long.  But most of the fun was, well, the various people I got to meet and joke around with :).

Lets be honest, though, a lot of games have something repetitive about it, but they tend to do a good job of making you forget that.  City of was pretty solid at it, at times.  I think it's replay-ability was very high because of the sheer number of powers to experiment with, since a stormer played so differently than a generic blaster for instance.  So because differing sets played differently, it proved an interesting distraction from being repetitive.  Even non mmorpgs can be that way, take fallout 4 and say, the minutemen quests and a few brotherhood radiant quests for example(minus the maybe still buggy babysitter mission everyone kills the npc in).

But fallout 4 often makes you forget that.  Either it's the building system in place, or simply a new character with a different strategy.  Or it may even be mods, which is something mmorpgs never have.  If every character played identically and there wasn't any building system or much of a story, fallout 4 would have been pretty bad, overall.  It avoids feeling repetitive by keeping things diverse enough, though, with details and it's features enhancing the experience rather than simply detracting.

And City of was, well, it let you experiment all the time with new characters and it had a variety of mobs to fight with different tricks.  And the game changed the types of mobs, to, over time for anyone who fought things other than just council.  And the mobs not only have a variety of looks but they also had differing resistances, differing crowd control abilities/debuffs/buffs ect and it made it important to play strategically with them.  Just trying to mindlessly throw ST attacks on that sky raiders boss without dealing with that engineer nearby or his shield bot for instance was going to lead to disaster for most.  Or in the case of a trial, say, the Behavioral Adjustment Facility, letting the reinforcements(I refuse to use the word "adds" because it sounds very stupid to me) build up over time was a recipe for disaster when they buffed themselves to the extremes.  People had to use strategy, rather than just "Stand in this one spot, ok now let tank do al the work of taking all the hits while the healer keeps his health topped off".

That prevalence of using differing and varying strategy in teams in general everywhere rather than the same old trinity helped the game distract people from the repetitive nature to.  People would be awed at what other teammates were doing, rather than just going through the same old routine again and again and again and again and again...........


.....and again and again and agaaaain and agaaaaaain and again and*gets tired and bored of saying and again* againandagainandagainandagain and agaaaaaain.  And again and again and again and again!

Yeah :).

[Arcana]

Incarnate system.  Design disaster.

A disconnected fracture of generic and cheap powers, drill down interface and mega team super grind end game.  -level shifts.  What a botched Frankenstein idea.  A completely jarring non sequitur to the 1-50 game as we know it.  A cheap bolt on not worthy of the end game long promised.  Not a natural successor at all. 

I played the trials.  Far from feeling incarnate I felt less empowered eg. Keyes.  I wanted solo content.  Progression.  Instead, grinding and fiddling with more loot in an unfamiliar and unfriendly interface.

It all seemed to lack any cohesion or progression of the game I loved.  A design annex which seemed to sum up Paragon's limitations or its leadership.

Azrael.

I think there were significant design errors in the Incarnate system, but to qualify as a design disaster it would have to fail its intent, and its intent was to create an optional endgame system targeted at the majority of players that wanted one.  In that respect, I would consider it a qualified success.  By the standard you're using, which is very personalized in your reaction to it, everything in the game was a design disaster.  Far more people complained to the same or higher degree about almost every other major design change in the game than the incarnate system.  The invention system, the architect system, all four versions of the Hamidon raid, the HO enhancement changes, ED, the I5 defense changes, in fact you could argue that both Praetoria and all of CoV were design failures of a significantly higher magnitude than the Incarnate system, as judged by the target audience of those design expansions verses their actual participation.

There should be a distinction made between things we didn't like, and things that were bad for the game.  I didn't like Defiance 2.0, but it was far better for the game than Defiance 1.0.  I didn't like the reward systems in the Architect *and* think they were bad for the game.  Whether I like something or not and whether I think it will be good for a majority of the playerbase is something I always tried to keep independent.

Let's focus on one particular statement: "A completely jarring non sequitur to the 1-50 game as we know it.  A cheap bolt on not worthy of the end game long promised.  Not a natural successor at all."  The devs never promised an end game that was a seamless continuation of the previous game.  In fact, they explicitly promised such a thing would never, never, ever happen.  For years, the devs said that Hamidon was basically "the end game" in the sense that it was the top tier raid, and in most MMOs end game focuses on raids.  The devs didn't want to focus on pure end game raids at the time, so they stated explicitly more than once that Hamidon was basically it: that their focus would be on expanding the conventional game and the task force system, and not on end game raids.  When that attitude changed, and something like the Incarnate system began to become a possibility, their statements changed to be that they were thinking about the end game, but they explicitly were not going to increase the level cap, were explicitly not going to create a pure gear escalation system (because the invention system already was the gear system) and because of the desire to protect the standard 1-50 game and its progression culture the end game was going to be, to the highest extent possible, optional for players to participate in.

They explicitly promised us, unwavringly, an endgame that would be discontinuous from the conventional game, not directly impact the level 1-50 game, not raise the level cap, not introduce significant gear, and yet add something completely new to the game.  That is exactly what the Incarnate system does, and is designed to do.  The rest of your observations are subjective opinions, but the statement that it wasn't what they devs "long promised" is objectively false.

[Arcana]

That prevalence of using differing and varying strategy in teams in general everywhere rather than the same old trinity helped the game distract people from the repetitive nature to.  People would be awed at what other teammates were doing, rather than just going through the same old routine again and again and again and again and again...........

I think we often forget that casual players and power gamers have totally different perspectives on "grinding" and one of them is that for many, if not most players, having a game that doesn't continuously challenge you by altering what you have to do to win is not boring or grinding, but desirable.  More people pay more money to play "repetitive, grinding" games than play everything else.  People want some mental stimulation, but not everyone wants constant mentally taxing stimulation from their entertainment sources.  The fact that City of Heroes could be played "repetitively" if desired is actually something I think helped make it friendly to casual players.  Remember that many City of Heroes players might be signing in once or maybe twice a week, take breaks for a month at a time, take a year to level to 50, play with friends who want to chat as much as blast, and had absolutely no idea what status protection did.  Those people could log in on a Saturday, without having given the game a single thought throughout the week, and jump into a random team playing a mission they had never seen before, and the game would let them drop into their character and play reasonably well.  Again and again and again.

To some of us that might be boring.  I believe to a lot of players it was comforting.

[Abraxus]

Metaphorically speaking, CoH was like the ultimate gaming "comfort food"!  I like that!

[Waffles]

For the love of Manticore's Robin Hood vs Batman Movie Collection...

Are. We. THERE. YET?!!?!?!?!

[Biz]

Nothing hurts a gamer more than opening a window and seeing you have unlocked 1 of 10 things and will NEVER unluck the other 9.

I can't agree with this statement enough.

[Biz]

I think we often forget that casual players and power gamers have totally different perspectives on "grinding" and one of them is that for many, if not most players, having a game that doesn't continuously challenge you by altering what you have to do to win is not boring or grinding, but desirable.  More people pay more money to play "repetitive, grinding" games than play everything else.  People want some mental stimulation, but not everyone wants constant mentally taxing stimulation from their entertainment sources.  The fact that City of Heroes could be played "repetitively" if desired is actually something I think helped make it friendly to casual players.  Remember that many City of Heroes players might be signing in once or maybe twice a week, take breaks for a month at a time, take a year to level to 50, play with friends who want to chat as much as blast, and had absolutely no idea what status protection did.  Those people could log in on a Saturday, without having given the game a single thought throughout the week, and jump into a random team playing a mission they had never seen before, and the game would let them drop into their character and play reasonably well.  Again and again and again.

To some of us that might be boring.  I believe to a lot of players it was comforting.

I believe the "problem" (although I hesitate to call it that), with this type of player representing such a big part of the player base, is that these are often "silent players" in that they wouldn't normally spend any time on the forums, they wouldn't ever communicate what changes needed/could be made. There wasn't any motivation for them to make the game better, because it simply wasn't a place they spent enough time.

It's difficult to help and make changes to the game that will benefit this type of player when all they provide is numerical data in terms of their play experience.

[HEATSTROKE]

Personally I found that the Incarnate system was the perfect way for me to round out some of my characters. It allowed me to add some things to shore up holes. or to make powers work more effeciently or even add a little more OOMPF not only to the powers but the background and origin as well..

For example my character SandStone who was a Dark/Stone tank. I changed the Dark Armor colors to make it look like sand. Incarnate helped him because he was an end draining hog of a character so Alpha Cardiac helped fix that issue. Now with the Interface power I took the Diamagntic effect that added a 100% to hit debuff to attacks. Why?.. His name is SandStone. He is surrounded by swirling sand all the time. You ever get sand in your eyes.. cant see as well can you.. well there is the to hit debuff effect..

Another example is Sureshot my Arch/Devices Blaster has ridiculous accuracy. He can also target shatterpoints.. Areas of weakness in anything... How do I simulate that? Musculature Alpha which increases his damage and Reactive Total Core which is a 75% Damage resistance debuff to his attacks..

This is one of the reasons I loved Incarnate.. not just making them more powerful but helping to round the characters out as well..

[brothermutant]

That's a dam fine way of thinking about it Heatstroke. I like the way you made it your own for what it meant to have a specific Incarnate ability. Very cool and I am totally into themed toons too. Never thought of changing the color of Dark Armor but I did want to change my Dark Melee/Energy Aura/Soul Brute to have all her powers look like bright light (she was supposed to be an Angel, and Darkest Night would have looked epic like that).

[Rejolt]

For the love of Manticore's Robin Hood vs Batman Movie Collection...

Are. We. THERE. YET?!!?!?!?!

I...

/hug

Carry on.

[Remaugen]

Incarnate system.  Design disaster.
<Snip!>. . .

Gotta disagree, lots of things I didn't like about the incarnate thing, but there was more that I loved.

The need for character progression beyond 50 was important for me, and incarnate provided that. I didn't like the proliferation of currency types, I hated the massive trials and being forced into a co-operative (as in non-solo or non small team) path. But I loved the intent, and that was continued character progression, a character has to grow or the game becomes no longer worth playing.

I loved the incarnate powers themselves and the options to customize and tailor each one. So the design was not a disaster, though the execution might have been done better. . .

[Noyjitat]

I loved everything about the incarnate system and wish more mmos had adopted it as the endgame system.

*Rewarded for time spent
*It's the only endgame system I could pug in without fear of wasting my time
*No gear to grind
*converting items into better items or splitting them to make better items
*No rolling for rewards
*A bigger choice of instances to goto from teh start so you're not forced into a 1 at a time progression system.
*Easier to learn game mechanics, not a ton of instant death circles that are hard to spot but still enough danger to where you need to pay attention.

All of the other mmos have a gear grind and you're not guaranteed any kind of reward. Other mmos have so many ways to instantly die that it sometimes takes spending the evening doing nothing but respawning until you figure out the fight.

No sir, the only negative thing I had to say about the incarnate system at start was the huge influence price to convert rares and very rares which they eventually lowered the costs.

[Arcana]

Triumph was a very small server but getting a trial wasn't hard because once one got started, it turned into a marathon. It usually happened from 1600-2100

Also, I dared Snow Globe to get all the tier 4 Lore pets.

[Arcana]

I believe the "problem" (although I hesitate to call it that), with this type of player representing such a big part of the player base, is that these are often "silent players" in that they wouldn't normally spend any time on the forums, they wouldn't ever communicate what changes needed/could be made. There wasn't any motivation for them to make the game better, because it simply wasn't a place they spent enough time.

It's difficult to help and make changes to the game that will benefit this type of player when all they provide is numerical data in terms of their play experience.

You don't really have to make changes that will benefit this type of player.  You just have to make sure the changes you make to benefit other players don't destroy the game experience for this player.  And that's not impossible; dramatic changes like the invention system managed to do that just fine.  The enhancement system became ten times more complicated and a hundred times more diverse, but the players who didn't want to spend any time figuring it out could still practically slot things based on their favorite color and they would still have at least as good performance as they used to have under power-10.  For the min/maxers, the invention system was a god-send.  For the casual players, the invention system was almost a non-event.  All it was, was more drops you could sell for more money, so the main side effect was net positive.

[Ankhammon]

I loved everything about the incarnate system and wish more mmos had adopted it as the endgame system.

*Rewarded for time spent
*It's the only endgame system I could pug in without fear of wasting my time
*No gear to grind
*converting items into better items or splitting them to make better items
*No rolling for rewards
*A bigger choice of instances to goto from teh start so you're not forced into a 1 at a time progression system.
*Easier to learn game mechanics, not a ton of instant death circles that are hard to spot but still enough danger to where you need to pay attention.

All of the other mmos have a gear grind and you're not guaranteed any kind of reward. Other mmos have so many ways to instantly die that it sometimes takes spending the evening doing nothing but respawning until you figure out the fight.

No sir, the only negative thing I had to say about the incarnate system at start was the huge influence price to convert rares and very rares which they eventually lowered the costs.

This.

In particular the no rolling for reward was worth soooooo much to me.

That being said, the only real problem I had with the system is that it was separate from the regular game. It seemed that so much time was being spent there by many of the player base that it was difficult to find a team for any alts you wanted to level up without AE or other PLing (self or other).
Of course, a lot of this was because the player base wasn't all that big by the time Incarnates came about.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I loved everything about the incarnate system and wish more mmos had adopted it as the endgame system.

*Rewarded for time spent
*It's the only endgame system I could pug in without fear of wasting my time
*No gear to grind
*converting items into better items or splitting them to make better items
*No rolling for rewards
*A bigger choice of instances to goto from teh start so you're not forced into a 1 at a time progression system.
*Easier to learn game mechanics, not a ton of instant death circles that are hard to spot but still enough danger to where you need to pay attention.

All of the other mmos have a gear grind and you're not guaranteed any kind of reward. Other mmos have so many ways to instantly die that it sometimes takes spending the evening doing nothing but respawning until you figure out the fight.

No sir, the only negative thing I had to say about the incarnate system at start was the huge influence price to convert rares and very rares which they eventually lowered the costs.

I agree CoH had a really good end game system.  I actually like traditional MMO's as well and enjoy the more traditional raiding that was introduced in WoW as opposed to the 100 person punching parties that were in EQ but CoH's incarnate system I still considered to be a god send.  It fit CoH perfectly.  A more casual endgame experience for a more casual game which meant you could do raids with a PuG or only spend like an hour or so doing it.  Not to mention CoH was great at making you battle these enemies you had spent a long time learning about.  So it always felt like you were fighting some great battle that was a long time coming.

[brothermutant]

Also, I dared Snow Globe to get all the tier 4 Lore pets.

Which two were your favorites and why?

[Vee]

Which two were your favorites and why?

You expect someone to pick only 2 favorite Snow Globe lore pets?

[brothermutant]

what's a snow globe lore pet? Never heard of the "snow globe" part.

[Soul Resonance]

All this waiting..something interesting(and good!) is going to happen soon  8) ;D