New efforts!

[Teikiatsu]

Removing previous comment.

I guess my question would be... what was the real problem since the 5th were considered a Villain Group?  I doubt there were plans for an EAT.

[Medispider Reznov]

I'm just gonna go on the record and say - as a Polish person of Jewish descent, I wholeheartedly think the 5th Column just felt better, and most defiantly looked better.

heck I actually wanted to have a costume power that turned me in to a 5th column trooper. So I'm behind the change here - the 5th Column just felt more imposing, more menacing with it's origins known.

besides we already have a Overarching fascist organisation, that comes from the country of fascism's origin at that.

Arachnos

[Felderburg]

FYI, the quote Irish Girl posted about the Germany release is from the Lore AMA: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#254

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I think the change is indeed a good story - once the game was able to handle it, instead of a wholesale replacement. It also does make some sense - the Nazis were tied to a defunct government from decades ago, whereas The Center is an actual, living leader to rally around.

Of course, his actual philosophy and goals weren't entirely made clear, but they were going to do that: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#38

Additionally, the 5th Column had a moon base: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#285 Perhaps The Council too, but I don't think it's ever stated for sure. Moon Nazis are the trope, after all.

I have always actually wondered if you copyrighted your character and its backstory.  Could you request that someones name be changed if they used it?  Can't name my character Spider-man or any other well known character name.

There's been discussion about this before. As far as I understand, you own the general concepts to characters you make - name, personality, perhaps general backstory. But anything from CoH, like costumes, backstory relating to the universe, etc., are owned by NCsoft. Additionally, you give NCsoft the rights to use your character if they want.

Mercedes Lackey et al. made some superhero stories in a completely different setting with characters created in CoH. That was legal, because they stripped away any CoH specific material from the stories.

[redfalcon66]

IIRC Jim Butcher was told he couldn't run a character named Harry Dresden due to copywriter issues

[redfalcon66]

He never could get them to grasp that he was the one with the character rights

[JanessaVR]

Additionally, the 5th Column had a moon base: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#285 Perhaps The Council too, but I don't think it's ever stated for sure. Moon Nazis are the trope, after all.

Anyone who hasn't seen the film Iron Sky should do so at once - it was hilarious.  I consider it the definitive "Nazis on the moon" film.  I remember watching it thinking "This is totally them - it's the 5th Column!"

[Arcana]

He never could get them to grasp that he was the one with the character rights

The catch was that he would be giving NCSoft an unlimited use license to his "Harry Dresden" character if he played such a character.  That character has significant monetary value, whereas all my mains, say, don't.  That's something of a legal tangle I think NCSoft wanted to avoid.  When Jim Butcher says that because he owns the copyright he's the only one that can play that character legally there's a catch: actually if he was allowed to make such a character, no he wouldn't.  I could, the next day on a different server, and he'd have no legal recourse.

Remember: there's no difference - from a US copyright perspective - between Harry Dresden and (my character) Aurora Vortex.  He owns the copyright to his, and I own the copyright to mine; a copyright I was granted in the US automatically by virtue of creation.

Considering how much misinformation and guessing existed on the forums about the nature of copyright protection and the contents of the EULA, its a sufficiently hazy area that I don't fault the operators of the game for being overcautious.

[JanessaVR]

It was a decision made by Cryptic to do this in order to appeal to the European market...and was completely voluntary on their part. You are making a censorship issue where none existed. Matt Miller has stated numerous times that the change was not something they HAD to do, but something they wanted to do more so out of respect for the European market and not because it was demanded or required. When a company CHOOSES voluntarily to alter their product for commercial purposes in other countries...that is not censorship...it is marketing :)

If that was truly the case, then I call it a rather lame change for marketing purposes - I'm rather tempted to classify it under "pandering" instead.  However, that assertion does seem to conflict with Matt's answer in the Lore AMA.

In any case, I reluctantly acknowledge that Codewalker is right about them being in the game too long to easily retcon out of existence.  That said, essentially banishing them to Striga (offshore, out of sight, out of mind), and leaving no "free range" Council wandering around anywhere else could have been done.  Then just shift any new storylines that would have involved the Council over the 5th Column.  That would be next best thing to a retcon.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

No one was forced to censor anything... it was a decision made by the developers... not a forced mandate.

If that was truly the case, then I call it a rather lame change for marketing purposes - I'm rather tempted to classify it under "pandering" instead.

It is illegal in Germany to buy or sell anything that has Nazis, Nazi symbols, etc. It wasn't pandering, it was a legal issue. Cryptic solved it in pretty much the same way Wolfenstein did: "Lets...make them...NOTzis!".
A little fore sight I suppose could have been had on what regions they wanted to sell the game, but that's not exactly a damning failing. -shrugs-

[Arcana]

If that was truly the case, then I call it a rather lame change for marketing purposes - I'm rather tempted to classify it under "pandering" instead.  However, that assertion does seem to conflict with Matt's answer in the Lore AMA.

Many of the cases of players observing the devs to contradict themselves are the result of the fact that the devs almost never did anything for a single reason.  CoH was developed somewhat collaboratively, and different people brought different reasoning to the table.  Imagine a game feature X that is somewhat controversial to implement in the game, and many of the devs want it for various reasons and many others don't want it for a completely different group of reasons.  Then one day dev Y comes up with a new reason Z for implementing it, and it convinces some of the devs leaning against to lean towards, and now a majority of devs want it and it gets implemented.

You could say that the reason X was implemented was because of Z.  But that would be a very simplistic characterization of events.

Lets take a real world example I'm familiar with.  Real Numbers.  This is the answer to the question "why was real numbers added to the game:"

Real Numbers was added to the game to give players more information about how their powers worked, and some of the mechanics of the game so that players who wanted that information had an authoritative source for them, while players who did not want that information could choose to ignore it or eliminate it from their gaming experience.

This is also the answer to the question "why was real numbers added to the game:"

Real Numbers was added to the game because the developer that wanted it added to the game was able to convince enough other developers of its merits, and was in a position to actually add it to the game, while the developers who did not want to add it to the game did not feel it was important enough to fight that decision.

Those are completely different answers, both true.

I can imagine this day at Cryptic:

DevA: you know, I think we're going to have to remove the 5th Column before we market the game to Germany: I don't think we can have Nazi's in the game if we market heavily there.

DevB: are you sure?  I think that's an urban legend.

DevA: I'm pretty sure.

DevC: you know, I never liked the 5th Column anyway; I wish we could get rid of them but we can't really do that.

DevD: Maybe not get rid of them, but I had this idea for a story where a 5th column *inside* the 5th column stages a coup.

DevB: That's really meta.

DevA: Well, if the 5th gets destroyed by a different group, we could eliminate the problem of marketing to Germany.

DevB: I still think you're making that crap up, but if we eliminate them because of a storyline event it doesn't matter either way.

DevD: Here's an outline for my 5th column idea

DevA: This is pretty cool, and it solves my problem.  Lets do this.

DevB: I think its a pretty cool idea also, I could go along with this.

DevC: Hey anything that gets rid of the 5th is fine with me.

DevD: Sold.


That's actually how MMOs are developed.  Now what was reason for the Council replacing the 5th Column in my hypothetical?  Depends on who you ask.

[JanessaVR]

It is illegal in Germany to buy or sell anything that has Nazis, Nazi symbols, etc. It wasn't pandering, it was a legal issue. Cryptic solved it in pretty much the same way Wolfenstein did: "Lets...make them...NOTzis!".
A little fore sight I suppose could have been had on what regions they wanted to sell the game, but that's not exactly a damning failing. -shrugs-

Then we're back to it being censorship after all, even if it's the "censorship lite" version, namely "let's censor ourselves before the government does it for us."

I personally prefer that game studios be able to freely develop storylines and characters without having to worry about such concerns.  If country X has censorship laws, well don't sell it in country X then.

[JanessaVR]

That's actually how MMOs are developed.  Now what was reason for the Council replacing the 5th Column in my hypothetical?  Depends on who you ask.

I'm going to go bang my head against a wall now.  Call me if downix hears some news...   :o

[FloatingFatMan]

Then we're back to it being censorship after all, even if it's the "censorship lite" version, namely "let's censor ourselves before the government does it for us."

I personally prefer that game studios be able to freely develop storylines and characters without having to worry about such concerns.  If country X has censorship laws, well don't sell it in country X then.

Whilst yes, it is censorship, the Germans have a REALLY REALLY good reason for censoring anything that could be seen as either promoting, or making light of, Nazism.  I'm assuming you're from the USA, yes?  In which case, no offence intended, but there's just no way you could ever understand the depth of feeling against those people in Germany and the rest of Europe.

[Arcana]

It is illegal in Germany to buy or sell anything that has Nazis, Nazi symbols, etc. It wasn't pandering, it was a legal issue. Cryptic solved it in pretty much the same way Wolfenstein did: "Lets...make them...NOTzis!".
A little fore sight I suppose could have been had on what regions they wanted to sell the game, but that's not exactly a damning failing. -shrugs-

Well, not everything.  The law has a specific exception for anything that "furthers civil enlightenment, averts unconstitutional aims, promotes art and science, research or teaching, or reports on current or historical events."  If a law existed that banned *all* commercial use of Nazi symbols it would ban things like documentaries as well, and there's ample proof documentaries that include Nazi symbolism are not banned.

Since video games are not given blanket protection as "art" in Germany, they can ban video games with Nazi symbols if they wish to.  But there's sufficient ambiguity in the law in that area to make it inconsistently enforced.

[Arcana]

I'm going to go bang my head against a wall now.  Call me if downix hears some news...   :o

I've always felt that Rashoman should be required viewing for MBAs and anyone who wants to understand how real organizations work.

[Medispider Reznov]

I am of the Opinion that Hate speech is the inevitable side effect of Free speech - you cannot have one or the other.

So even though I am both Polish and Jewish, I think the Germans are way too oversensitive about this, it's been 80 years since the war started, I think it's about time to put this to bed.

Only ridicule can kill an idea, suppressing and otherwise taking it seriously - bolsters it.



So yeah, Bring on da Krieg helmets :D

I mean honestly, the 5th column doesn't even have a iconography going for it, they don't wear similar uniforms or bare the Swastika or Prussian skullcaps.

[JanessaVR]

Only ridicule can kill an idea, suppressing and otherwise taking it seriously - bolsters it.

This is, in fact, the stated philosophy of Mel Brooks - and he's done a darn fine job of it.  :)

[BadWolf]

DevC: you know, I never liked the 5th Column anyway; I wish we could get rid of them but we can't really do that.

DevD: Maybe not get rid of them, but I had this idea for a story where a 5th column *inside* the 5th column stages a coup.

DevB: That's really meta.

DevE: You think that's meta, I have an idea for a story where the 5th Column let themselves be defeated in the internal coup by the fifth column so that they can then rise again as the 5th Column, a fifth column within the fifth column that overthrew the 5th Column!

DevB: ...are you feeling okay?

[JanessaVR]

DevE: You think that's meta, I have an idea for a story where the 5th Column let themselves be defeated in the internal coup by the fifth column so that they can then rise again as the 5th Column, a fifth column within the fifth column that overthrew the 5th Column!

DevB: ...are you feeling okay?

Ok, I'm sold.  That's so insane I have to see that storyline.  Do us a favor and make that up in AE.  :)

[Arcana]

DevE: You think that's meta, I have an idea for a story where the 5th Column let themselves be defeated in the internal coup by the fifth column so that they can then rise again as the 5th Column, a fifth column within the fifth column that overthrew the 5th Column!

Don't tell me, let me guess.  The story arc involves the hero-side players infiltrating the Fifth Column inside the Council faction bringing down the Fifth Column, and the red-side players bringing down the hero-side players infiltrating the Fifth Column inside the Council faction bringing down the Fifth Column.