New efforts!

[GenericHero05]

Always wanted to create a reformed Tsoo/Country Singer mashup:  A Boy Named Tsoo.  (I'll be here all week. Try the meatloaf.)

Part Tsoo, part fish = Tsooshi

[Wyrm]

Though that originating on the CoX forums if I recall.
There was a brief period (not sure it was even a full day) on the official forums where one of the mods altered the language filter so that every letter of a filtered word was replaced with "pancake".

I remember that thread, because I actually got modded in it in a way that bothered me enough to write to Zwill.  I don't remember what it was about, but I ended up being critical of some decision or other and how the game was being run.  (One of a number of things I regret about my old forum persona was that I was as guilty as anyone of not appreciating how great our dev team was all the time...)  One of my posts, which I kind of figured was going to get deleted, didn't - it got changed so that instead of sounding critical, I sounded like I was supporting what I had been criticizing.

So I wrote Zwill and expressed that I didn't mind being modded, because I knew I'd stepped over the line, but that I didn't appreciate Mod5 or whomever changing the meaning of what I posted to make it sound like I said something I didn't and would rather the post had just been deleted.

The tone of the moderation shifted not long after that, with "pancake" making its first appearance, and the overall tenor of the discussion got much more light-hearted.  I'm sure I'm not the only person who was communicating with them about the thread, and they listened.  Andy and team really did a great job of listening to us and letting us have our voices, while keeping things generally civil.  Without a great community team, you don't get a great community. And we have a great community.

[hejtmane]

, but still not benefiting from the resistance layer in front of that absorption, you can see this in the battle station pretty easily).

CoX was, surprisingly, simple.  Chance to hit equaled, roughly, (tohit + accuracy) - defense.  I think, from my observations.  A dev could probably step in and correct me on that.  But combat was designed around layering defenses and resistances, which was how it also avoided the more common mmohtg problems in team dynamics to.

Not sure if you guys should laugh or cry I still have the formulas in a note pad I had with some of the formulas for COH

final CTH = (1 + accuracy) * (base tohit - defense + tohit buffs)

On top of that there was a cap you always had a 5% chance to miss no matter what and always had a 5% chance to hit no matter what

[Azrael]

I missed a part - the code is likely not going to be "worked" developed past Issue 24.

Some of the tools to do so were custom made and not in NCSoft's posession. What would be possible is to run the game at Issue 24 and continue development on CoH 2 using the UnReal4 engine. I think you are seeing some of the posts and reading into them what you want to see. Due to NCSoft linking game accounts across all of their stable of games - account information is highly unlikely to be recovered, it also is information that is 2 years old and many emails and credit information have changed.

The character information is possible but the main point now is NCSoft asked the team to prove they are technically able to run the game. Once that is finished then further bargaining will happen. You can take a seat and heckle if you like but it won't stop me. I know where it all rests right now and either way you will hear what is happening.

So we're in the technical proof phase of the team's credentials?  Then more bargaining.  If the character information...if that's possible.  Worth going for.  Even if we have to pay an additional admin' fee for it.

This deal all sounds very 'doable' Ironwolf.

Well done for being the 'fulcrum shift' in this brokering.

What I did find heartening, a few posts after the one above, is that Iron Wolf further adds a juicy bit about 'Dark Watcher' (D'Amelio) himself reaching out to the team.  If we get just a handful of key developers reaching and helping the new team then it would be an awesome vindication of the game, developer spirit and user base.  It further...shows the potential to reach out to former Paragon Studio employees for help.

Taking on board consultative help from former developers and lead community members with the talent to help the game back to life, backwards engineer it and take it on design wise from the old engine to eg. Unreal 4 Engine while maintaining the thrust of previously planned ideas such as the Battalion and the Moon Base?

Cool.  Calm.  Collected.

August isn't that far away. 

I'm waiting for the shockwave.

Azrael.

[Angel Phoenix77]

Im sad now, listening to Split Infinity radio  :'( remembering listening to this station when I was my brutes and scarppers, I want to go into scrapperlock again, but can't yet.

[Azrael]

Well, mechanically CoX was fairly simple, combat wise.  You had to hit rates and accuracy, which multiplied against each other to determine the "chance to hit", which was then if I recall subtracted from by defense.  To-hit debuffs affected to-hit directly, and thus chance to hit was impacted ect.  It's not like CO where you have "layer, layer, layer, another layer, ok, this layer is in front of layer 1 but is unaffected by layer 3, layer, layer, another layer affected by layer 4 and 2 but not 1 and 3", which was more like sphaghetti(don't have to be a game coder, this is actually just evident in the many damage glitches and whatnot, like protection field for example not benefiting from dodging or resistance in normal circumstances, but strangely benefiting from dodging only when you have post-resistance absorption such as IDF, but still not benefiting from the resistance layer in front of that absorption, you can see this in the battle station pretty easily).

CoX was, surprisingly, simple.  Chance to hit equaled, roughly, (tohit + accuracy) - defense.  I think, from my observations.  A dev could probably step in and correct me on that.  But combat was designed around layering defenses and resistances, which was how it also avoided the more common mmohtg problems in team dynamics to.

CoX combat, while 'surprisingly' simple.  Never felt that way.  It played like a dream.  'Simple.'  But in a team situation...the team dynamics had a lot of different combat strategy and diversity going on.  Mechanically simple?  Maybe. 

But I don't know of any MMO that I have played or would want to play that can equal its feel yet alone surpass it.  Lightning in a bottle.

I think I read in a 'Jack' interview that CoH took a year and a half to develop.  I find that hard to believe.  It's a work of art combat wise. 

'Pitch perfect' combat.  It majestic posture as each battle form executes with silky smoothness...makes CO seem very skittish and jerky and erratic.

CoH was like some superhero ballet.  So much class.

I'd happily play Issue 24 for years upon end.

(If they can port all the art assets, all the animations, all the combat numbers and combat system and interface to a new engine aka Unreal 4?  I'm down for that.  But I want the original 'feel' preserved.)

I liked how in CoH...when you hit with Super Strength it was like you were giving the Helions or Trolls a real pounding...I liked the way...on Striga Warehouse maps you could ratchet the difficulty upto +2x8 and push your alt to the limit.  Mobs and maps full to the rafters...and would swarm you hero as the balance of the fight was put to test.  Bodies flying everywhere...  Team wipes...a valiant tank...taking the last stand.

Such pathos.

From Simplicity came complexity.  That's what I liked about the CoH combat system.  You could push it to the limits.

Azrael.

[Des_Tructive]

Hi, everyone.

I've been giving it some thought and I've come to the conclusion that now's as good a time as any to announce that I am the benefactor looking to buy our beloved City of Heroes.  But before you all get your hopes up any further, I think it's only right that I inform you that I have no intention of re-releasing the game and that the only reason why I'm interested in purchasing CoH is so I can fuss around with the character creator and rework the backstory on my petless mastermind.  Some of you might ask, "Well why don't you just download 'Icon'?" and to which I reply: I tried that and when Windows asked me if I wanted the program to make changes to my computer I accidentally hit "No".  I have no idea how to fix my boo boo so I figured it would just be easier if I just buy the game.  Again, sorry to dash everybody's excitement but if you're still interested I will keep filling Iron Wolf in on my progress so stay tuned right here for all the latest!


Regards,
Some rich guy.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

[Shadowe]

Food for thought post.

City of Heroes was originally just called that: City of Heroes.

When it went F2P, the name changed to City of Heroes: Freedom.

I heard an interesting marketing problem a while ago, which actually relates to tabletop RPGs, but is kind of relevant here:

When Wizards of the Coast released the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 for the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons, something odd happened - they found it more and more difficult to persuade retailers to stock the Dungeon Master's Guide (which is an essential part of the game system, unlike the very optional DMG2), because retailers and distributors saw "DMG2" and assumed that it was an updated version of the DMG, so there was no need to stock the DMG, since it had been superseded by the DMG2, right?

In other words, it's hard to sell an original product if there's a sequel out there, even in situations where the original product is more relevant than the "sequel".

The solution, though, is to not produce sequels with numbers. Give them names. Anyone who played the entire Assassin's Creed series will recognise this tactic from AC:2 - you're playing different games, under the same banner heading, and there is a certain level of encouragement to play the earlier titles, if only to get the complete story of Ezio.

Which, in a roundabout way, leads me back to CoH. We (hopefully) have CoH: Freedom returning (perhaps with a new banner title, like City of Heroes: Revival, though I'm holding out for City of Heroes: Pass the Wakie). What would be a good banner name for CoH 2?

[Angel Phoenix77]

Food for thought post.

City of Heroes was originally just called that: City of Heroes.

When it went F2P, the name changed to City of Heroes: Freedom.

I heard an interesting marketing problem a while ago, which actually relates to tabletop RPGs, but is kind of relevant here:

When Wizards of the Coast released the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 for the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons, something odd happened - they found it more and more difficult to persuade retailers to stock the Dungeon Master's Guide (which is an essential part of the game system, unlike the very optional DMG2), because retailers and distributors saw "DMG2" and assumed that it was an updated version of the DMG, so there was no need to stock the DMG, since it had been superseded by the DMG2, right?

In other words, it's hard to sell an original product if there's a sequel out there, even in situations where the original product is more relevant than the "sequel".

The solution, though, is to not produce sequels with numbers. Give them names. Anyone who played the entire Assassin's Creed series will recognise this tactic from AC:2 - you're playing different games, under the same banner heading, and there is a certain level of encouragement to play the earlier titles, if only to get the complete story of Ezio.

Which, in a roundabout way, leads me back to CoH. We (hopefully) have CoH: Freedom returning (perhaps with a new banner title, like City of Heroes: Revival, though I'm holding out for City of Heroes: Pass the Wakie). What would be a good banner name for CoH 2?

that's the one thing that irritates me about co the name changes, I know it is petty but the name should be City of Heroes/Villains.
For City of heroes/Villains 2 I would think of the name City of Heroes/Villains this time it's Personal :D

[Super Firebug]

that's the one thing that irritates me about co the name changes, I know it is petty but the name should be City of Heroes/Villains.
For City of heroes/Villains 2 I would think of the name City of Heroes/Villains this time it's Personal :D

With better graphics, I'm thinking "City of Heroes: Vision".

[Blackstar5]

Hi, everyone.

I've been giving it some thought and I've come to the conclusion that now's as good a time as any to announce that I am the benefactor looking to buy our beloved City of Heroes.  But before you all get your hopes up any further, I think it's only right that I inform you that I have no intention of re-releasing the game and that the only reason why I'm interested in purchasing CoH is so I can fuss around with the character creator and rework the backstory on my petless mastermind.  Some of you might ask, "Well why don't you just download 'Icon'?" and to which I reply: I tried that and when Windows asked me if I wanted the program to make changes to my computer I accidentally hit "No".  I have no idea how to fix my boo boo so I figured it would just be easier if I just buy the game.  Again, sorry to dash everybody's excitement but if you're still interested I will keep filling Iron Wolf in on my progress so stay tuned right here for all the latest!


Regards,
Some rich guy.

I smell a troll.

[blacksly]

It's already pretty much been confirmed that there will be no developing of CoH.  There's no point.  The goal is strictly to get the game up and running in it's last known working form.  Any development (aside from getting CoH up and running) will be directed entirely at CoH2.  This is the best possible solution to the aging (Read: aged) engine.  Once development begins on CoH2, I'm sure there will be a place express our wants/needs/wishes/ridiculous demands ;)  Seeing as the buyers are described as "just like us", chances are slim they'll ignore the original feel of CoH when moving over to a new engine.  There is a pretty good chance they're going to port over as much of the original game as they possibly can, while most likely adding whatever it is that's going to make it "CoH2".

I really don't see this as reasonable.
There may be no point in developing NEW types of power expressions, but the powers themselves are just entries in a database, and that has to be pretty much some standard format... SQL, most likely. It would be quite possible, for example, to make Issue 25, where they port Cold Domination with 1 or 2 powers changed to MMs, and Illusion to Dominators. Add in some more powerset changes and such, and without new animations, you can probably run several issues.

I personally have several ideas on how to make "sub-ATs" with existing powers that requires nothing more than updating the database for the new sets, and testing for balance (not like balance is all that difficult when re-using existing powers). They could EASILY fill 4-6 issues at 4 powersets per issue.

Now, new coding, I can see that being ignored. And I can see, just maybe, that they might not create new powers that require any different kind of mechanism than already exists in some other power. But moving existing powers around, maybe some new versions that don't exist yet but don't actually use new effects (say, a Wind powerset that uses Hurricane but has Knockdown without the repel), that is easily doable.

Now, add in another possibility: what if they get hold (or find that it's not hard to make) the tools with which to link new mobile statistics to some existing mobile graphics. For example, copy Necromancy, but change the graphics that the henchmen use. I assume that they can definitely access the mob database in some way, so they can then change the stats of the mobs. Presto, you can make a new MM powerset called Ghost Summoning (distinguished from the physical undead summoned by Necromancy).

How much would this cost? Frankly, I'd do it as a part-timer at industry standard rates for a programmer, plus offer a discount. Between a discount and being part-time, figure that's half a normal employee cost. If they add in one other employee who does graphics design (this is a real question mark, though, because the graphics might not be in an easily accessible format), for 1.5 salaries, you end up with enough new powersets for years. You won't get TRUE new issues since there won't be new zones and such, but you can get new development that will easily pay for itself just with the store fees for the new powersets.

[Ohioknight]

I smell a troll.

Whoosh (his hat's blown off and down the street)

I don't think trolls sign their posts "some rich guy"

[Ohioknight]

What would be a good banner name for CoH 2?

Got it! City of Titans! -- oh, wait

[Ohioknight]

Sorry folks we are just in a quiet time while things happen. I haven't been posting this weekend because I have been really busy!

... no news is good news it means things are still moving forward. Once the team satisfies NCSoft they are technically competent then it moves further. It is a step by step process.

August was the goal but that doesn't mean August 1st!

Personally, I hope people remember "August was the goal" doesn't even necessarily mean August -- I could easily see minor and unimportant delays adding a number of weeks to the close (ever closed a house?)

Actually, I'd like to admit my massive ignorance (even though I've spent decades working for major international corporations) on what is actually physically involved with a "close" on a deal like this in the modern world.  If Mr. NCSoft were to say "Okay, my friends, we have a deal and we are honored to do business with such fine people" tomorrow... would a group of people have to get on an airliner for Korea, and personally sign 14 forms in 3 places and initial 57 individual paragraph clauses?  Would lawyers have to sign with a set of witnesses in a room? Or could the whole thing be done over the wonder of the intertubes?

I actually don't expect Iron Wolf to necessarily know the answer on this, but surely some folks on here would.

[Serpine]

... Which, in a roundabout way, leads me back to CoH. We (hopefully) have CoH: Freedom returning (perhaps with a new banner title, like City of Heroes: Revival, though I'm holding out for City of Heroes: Pass the Wakie). What would be a good banner name for CoH 2?

For the original game I like "City of Heroes: Revival". The subtitle is appropriate, and you can sort of pronounce CoHR out loud as "core", which is way better then what you get when you try to say CoX in mixed company. I've also never really been that big on forcing an indicator of City of Villains in there (which led to such constructs as CoX and CoHV) as the orientation of the product has almost always been so strong on the heroic end (they just happen to let us play the other side as well).

As to CoH2, honestly the bulk of your post makes a good point for just calling it "City of Heroes 2", since the new owners would likely just intend it to replace the original game (in minds and on shelves) with the "new improved" version. It doesn't need a subtitle as it is meant to stand alone, not be some new chapter requiring a special label.

Just my thoughts of course.

[MWRuger]

Personally, I hope people remember "August was the goal" doesn't even necessarily mean August -- I could easily see minor and unimportant delays adding a number of weeks to the close (ever closed a house?)

Actually, I'd like to admit my massive ignorance (even though I've spent decades working for major international corporations) on what is actually physically involved with a "close" on a deal like this in the modern world.  If Mr. NCSoft were to say "Okay, my friends, we have a deal and we are honored to do business with such fine people" tomorrow... would a group of people have to get on an airliner for Korea, and personally sign 14 forms in 3 places and initial 57 individual paragraph clauses?  Would lawyers have to sign with a set of witnesses in a room? Or could the whole thing be done over the wonder of the intertubes?

I actually don't expect Iron Wolf to necessarily know the answer on this, but surely some folks on here would.

Probably a team of lawyers and accountant types would work out schedule of assets transfer, when and where it takes place. You don't generally do that until the initial deal is inked.

It's not a summit though so it's possible the deal could be signed, overnighted with the involved parties never meeting. It depends on what the individuals want and whether it is feasible language and scheduling wise. It could all be done via video conferencing. Probably really up to NCSoft as they have the lion's share of control.

[therain93]

Food for thought post.

City of Heroes was originally just called that: City of Heroes.

When it went F2P, the name changed to City of Heroes: Freedom.

I heard an interesting marketing problem a while ago, which actually relates to tabletop RPGs, but is kind of relevant here:

When Wizards of the Coast released the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 for the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons, something odd happened - they found it more and more difficult to persuade retailers to stock the Dungeon Master's Guide (which is an essential part of the game system, unlike the very optional DMG2), because retailers and distributors saw "DMG2" and assumed that it was an updated version of the DMG, so there was no need to stock the DMG, since it had been superseded by the DMG2, right?

In other words, it's hard to sell an original product if there's a sequel out there, even in situations where the original product is more relevant than the "sequel".

The solution, though, is to not produce sequels with numbers. Give them names. Anyone who played the entire Assassin's Creed series will recognise this tactic from AC:2 - you're playing different games, under the same banner heading, and there is a certain level of encouragement to play the earlier titles, if only to get the complete story of Ezio.

Which, in a roundabout way, leads me back to CoH. We (hopefully) have CoH: Freedom returning (perhaps with a new banner title, like City of Heroes: Revival, though I'm holding out for City of Heroes: Pass the Wakie). What would be a good banner name for CoH 2?

City of Heroes: The New Paragons

[Mistress Urd]

Food for thought post.

City of Heroes was originally just called that: City of Heroes.

When it went F2P, the name changed to City of Heroes: Freedom.

I heard an interesting marketing problem a while ago, which actually relates to tabletop RPGs, but is kind of relevant here:

When Wizards of the Coast released the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 for the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons, something odd happened - they found it more and more difficult to persuade retailers to stock the Dungeon Master's Guide (which is an essential part of the game system, unlike the very optional DMG2), because retailers and distributors saw "DMG2" and assumed that it was an updated version of the DMG, so there was no need to stock the DMG, since it had been superseded by the DMG2, right?

In other words, it's hard to sell an original product if there's a sequel out there, even in situations where the original product is more relevant than the "sequel".

The solution, though, is to not produce sequels with numbers. Give them names. Anyone who played the entire Assassin's Creed series will recognise this tactic from AC:2 - you're playing different games, under the same banner heading, and there is a certain level of encouragement to play the earlier titles, if only to get the complete story of Ezio.

Which, in a roundabout way, leads me back to CoH. We (hopefully) have CoH: Freedom returning (perhaps with a new banner title, like City of Heroes: Revival, though I'm holding out for City of Heroes: Pass the Wakie). What would be a good banner name for CoH 2?

Unlike tabletop games you can turn off the old game. Its much harder to force change when people aren't required to move games. Most of the tabletop RPGs force new editions every 6-7 years for money grab.

CoH 2 - Heroes Win

[Serpine]

Got it! City of Titans! -- oh, wait

While they've apparently clearly established that they are not involved with the purchase offer, I do like doing thought experiments about how MWM would approach things like unwinding from their Kickstarter responsibilities if they secretly were part of the buyout team and were just obfuscating to prevent people from asking lots of annoying questions and disrupting the process. I mean, they would make a really good fit considering they love CoH enough that they are building a successor project from scratch, and already have development and planning infrastructure in place from the CoT development so far: It would just have to be repurposed... Likewise anything city construction wise they have developed could probably be repurposed as city expansions or just having an additional city to visit/interact with. And them being involved with the purchase would prevent them from having to actually compete with a resurrected CoH. :)

Kickstarter-wise a lot of it would depend on how much separate money they had available from additional investors involved in the offer being made. Technically the responsibility is to deliver CoT, as that is what was promised, but I've frequently seen projects make adjustments during fulfillment (i.e. this material or miniature won't be available, will you take these instead sort of thing) when required. They would probably have to offer a refund to all existing backers, while at the same time having a list of "But if you stay and accept your pledge as applying to CoH2 instead, this is what your existing backing level / add-ons will get you". A lot of the stuff like default number of subscribed months, designing a weapon or costume pattern, having your hero logo floating in the sky at night, naming/designing an npc that owns a shop or hangout, etc would really apply regardless of the game setting. To make up for the potential shortfall of moneys caused by people who do ask for a refund (I'd imagine they would be few if CoH2 was on the table, but obviously I can't really know for sure) they could reopen pledges via an external pledge manager for people who specifically want to throw money at CoH2, or if they wanted to expand what they pledged for CoT (i.e. I didn't really seriously consider dropping down $500 for the Mogul add-on, but for an actual CoH2 I would be highly tempted to accept the wallet trauma to have a building marked "Quixote Systems, Inc" out there).

These are just thought experiments though obviously: I'm assuming that the statements that they are not involved are factual at this time. But it would be interesting...