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[Thirty-Seven]

I don't think he was arguing that any of the things in his post were "game breaking" but rather that the mere fact they existed left a bad taste in his mouth and that they were continually moving toward a territory he didn't agree with, monetization philosophy-wise.

If that was indeed his opinion, I have to say I agree completely.  I was most vehemently opposed to the idea that bought IOs were strictly better in terms of proccing in many situations.  I was all for the changes to them that were pending in i24 regardless or impact to the numbers simply because they'd finally all be equal again.

[Golden Girl]

I also think that it didn't help that in light of the shutdown, the increasing monetization of the game appeared less like something required to keep it profitable, and more like a final push from the publishers to squeeze as much out of the title as possible before selling or closing it.

[Codewalker]

I don't think he was arguing that any of the things in his post were "game breaking" but rather that the mere fact they existed left a bad taste in his mouth and that they were continually moving toward a territory he didn't agree with, monetization philosophy-wise.

Yes, none of those were game breaking in isolation. All added together? It made quite a profound impact on the way the game was played. If it kept operating that way for another 2, 5, 7 years adding more and more purchasable power creep...?

As noted it didn't begin with Freedom and the F2P model. That was just when the floodgates opened the rest of the way.

[LaughingAlex]

Yes, none of those were game breaking in isolation. All added together? It made quite a profound impact on the way the game was played. If it kept operating that way for another 2, 5, 7 years adding more and more purchasable power creep...?

As noted it didn't begin with Freedom and the F2P model. That was just when the floodgates opened the rest of the way.

I can understand your concern there.  I think they had to draw a line somewhere.  I myself would have suggested, thinking back if the subject came up, nerfing the team inspirations some.  But I didn't see them used very often, as it was I knew how to make teams especially overpowered when everyone was using just SO's or even half unenhanced without anything from the store.  But as I said, I didn't think enhancement boosters really made that much of a difference, in fact I didn't notice it unless it was endurance related(and even then it was slight, I couldn't for example reduce the cost of my time manipulation powers enough to avoid endurance burnout, I still had to get the +end IO's(and I got those without the store), get the accolades, and the cardiac alpha slot, to keep my character from running out of endurance).  And I almost never remembered to use the mutation power even though I had it.

I didn't use ninja running 90% of the time, as it couldn't be enhanced.  Often I used flight with afterburner, actually.  Because I had to deal with enhancement slots.  More powers can mean less enhancement slots per power, which hurt IO's at times.  Time manipulators needed 5 per power, if you couldn't get that due to to many powers you had to toss something, and often I'd toss for a travel power or something like recall friend(even if I didn't need it).  Heck, even when i did use ninja running, I had super speed at a minimum, ninja running was only used as a vertical travel power I used in place of a jetpack that I could buy for 10,000 influence.  So I got to save 10,000 influence per two hours vertical travel time, when I made over 700,000 influence an hour of play doing normal missions....yay..... :).  Not to mention maybe, the 5 minutes travel time to go and buy said jet pack and only buying once per like, 2-3 weeks?

Thats, kinda my experience talkin there :).

[Codewalker]

The killer app for boosters is for powers that you wanted to fully enhance a single attribute of and nothing else.  Stamina, Hasten, Rage, sometimes Build Up if you only want recharge, etc.  You could hit the ED cap with 2 +5 boosted common IOs rather than 3 unboosted. Saving a slot may not sound like much, but do that for 3 or 4 powers and suddenly you've got several extra enhancement slots to put procs in, get extra set bonuses, and so on, going from a very tight build to one with lots of room to do creative things.

Given how crazy people were going for a mere 3 extra slots that were experimented with during beta but got rolled back due to not working right, trimming that off a build is a big deal indeed.

That's just one potential use of them. Using them effectively with sets was more difficult, but I know people who took full advantage of it. That gets more into the uber min/max territory than I usually delved.

Also: The speed of Rocket Board/Magic Carpet/Void Skiff/etc is over the flight speed cap. It's faster than Fly. It's faster than Fly+Afterburner. You *might* be able to touch it with a fully slotted fly, swift, and afterburner. I take issue with something that lets you break the rules set by actual travel powers.

[LaughingAlex]

The killer app for boosters is for powers that you wanted to fully enhance a single attribute of and nothing else.  Stamina, Hasten, Rage, sometimes Build Up if you only want recharge, etc.  You could hit the ED cap with 2 +5 boosted common IOs rather than 3 unboosted. Saving a slot may not sound like much, but do that for 3 or 4 powers and suddenly you've got several extra enhancement slots to put procs in, get extra set bonuses, and so on, going from a very tight build to one with lots of room to do creative things.

Given how crazy people were going for a mere 3 extra slots that were experimented with during beta but got rolled back due to not working right, trimming that off a build is a big deal indeed.

That's just one potential use of them. Using them effectively with sets was more difficult, but I know people who took full advantage of it. That gets more into the uber min/max territory than I usually delved.

Also: The speed of Rocket Board/Magic Carpet/Void Skiff/etc is over the flight speed cap. It's faster than Fly. It's faster than Fly+Afterburner. You *might* be able to touch it with a fully slotted fly, swift, and afterburner. I take issue with something that lets you break the rules set by actual travel powers.

I recall people only recorded like 60 some speed with rocket board/magic carpet, I was getting about 85 speed with afterburner + fly.  I am beginning to think your exagerating.  Also I didn't have many characters who had that many powers where I could get 3 enhancement slots from just using boosters.  I primarily played toons like corruptors.  Seriously though your really making a slight thing look overpowered.  One IO set by itself wasn't going to make the difference in a competitive team thats soft-capping defense or even going beyond soft-cap with just buffs alone.

Edit: And if it was, it'd have been nerfed.  Like the IOs were.

[JanessaVR]

I had no problem with any of the store items or powers.  As someone who spent thousands of $'s on CoH over 4 and half years in the game, always as subscriber, even after Freedom, why shouldn't I get some bennies for that much extra cash beyond my subscription fee?

I had no problems at all with the cash shop - I loved every minute of it and wanted more.

If you contribute more money to the people making and maintaining the game, you should get more in return.  For instance, why am I getting my own building in City of Titans?  Because I paid an extra $500 for the privilege of doing so.

[Fanta]

Also: The speed of Rocket Board/Magic Carpet/Void Skiff/etc is over the flight speed cap. It's faster than Fly. It's faster than Fly+Afterburner. You *might* be able to touch it with a fully slotted fly, swift, and afterburner. I take issue with something that lets you break the rules set by actual travel powers.

Meh, had the Rocket Board and never cared for it due to having to toggle everything back on(no stealth/invis). I'm lazy that way.

[JanessaVR]

Also: The speed of Rocket Board/Magic Carpet/Void Skiff/etc is over the flight speed cap. It's faster than Fly. It's faster than Fly+Afterburner. You *might* be able to touch it with a fully slotted fly, swift, and afterburner. I take issue with something that lets you break the rules set by actual travel powers.

A situation that was more than balanced by the fact that it cancelled all of your powers while you were riding it.  I can't count the number of times I got shot at while riding the board or the carpet and was frantically turning it off so that I could re-toggle defensive powers and then start shooting back.

[Mistress Urd]

When I talk about "Pay 2 Win", I'm not talking about free-to-play or IOs or Incarnate powers. I'm talking about things that a paying subscriber could only get by paying more on top of their subscription and would put them at an advantage when compared to someone who didn't.

Off the top of my head:

• Enhancement Boosters. Can only be bought in the store or via super pack. Whoever came up with them is just plain bad at math. They're ridiculously overpowered and using them can completely change a build due to how much more efficiently you can slot it.
  
  
• Team Transporter. Almost completely eliminated travel time, making some taskforces completable in as much as 33% less time (maybe even 50% for something like Dr. Q) than people without them. That translates directly to an increased rate of earning rewards.
  
  
• Buyable travel powers that free up a slot in your build for a combat power. Hope you didn't have a character concept or anything, but feel free to gimp yourself if you do.
  
  
• XP Boosters. Besides the obvious application of leveling faster, also boosted influence gains for farming/TFing at level 50, giving people who had them an advantage at bidding for IOs and other shiny things.
  
  
• Though they weren't very popular outside of super packs due to the price point, team inspirations were really, really brokenly good. Might as well put some I win buttons in the package.
  
  
• ATOs at first, though they eventually relented and made these buyable with Reward Merits. The procs and special ATOs are game changing for some archetypes.
  
  
• In I23, store-bought enhancements often had better proc rates than the crafted versions. Fortunately, this was changing in I24.
  
  
• I'd put some of the vet rewards in this category, since post-freedom you could buy your way into them. Return to Battle is a very big one. There was a second self-rez from the holiday pack that fortunately never made it live, because it would have been just plain ridiculous to have 2.
  
  
• There are indications in the client files that they might have been about to start selling accolade powers (Atlas Medallion, Task Force Commander, Portal Jockey, etc. etc) in the store as well. Can't say for certain if that would have happened, but the pieces were definitely in place for it to.
  
  
• I can't think of a team I was on in the last year of the game where everyone didn't have a mystic fortune buff and many people had secondary mutation.

Some of those could eventually be acquired with the point stipend if you were patient enough, except that you couldn't really because the game closed before there had been enough time to get them all that way. Even then, it's an additional metagame step that you had to do in order to keep up with people who bought the items from the store.

Even things like inventory increases that are arguably strictly a convenience thing make a big difference.

Regardless of what this group does, when there are private servers that unlock all the microtransaction stuff for everybody, hop on one and try it out. The haves were playing a completely different game than the have-nots. I say that as a 'have' who bought almost everything because I wanted to support the studio even if I didn't fully agree with their direction.

Well, there has to be some "perk" in paying for the game sub or I would just play for free.

[LaughingAlex]

Meh, had the Rocket Board and never cared for it due to having to toggle everything back on(no stealth/invis). I'm lazy that way.

Well geesh, if that was the case then, how is it op?  *rolls eyes*.

[JanessaVR]

Well, there has to be some "perk" in paying for the game sub or I would just play for free.

Exactly!  People complaining about "discrimination" against free players are rather missing the point.  Nothing is free.  If I'm actually putting $ in the pockets of the people making and maintaining the game, I deserve more in return than the freeloaders.

[LaughingAlex]

Exactly!  People complaining about "discrimination" against free players are rather missing the point.  Nothing is free.  If I'm actually putting $ in the pockets of the people making and maintaining the game, I deserve more in return than the freeloaders.

Wouldn't use the word freeloader myself considering even paying the monthly fee and having stipend and whatnot I still didn't use alot of the things Codewalker speaks of.  Because i didn't see the practicality of it.  I always kept my builds practical and effective.  The only time I ever made a build with lots of purple IOs was a fortunata, and only reason I used purples, well, take a guess, I didn't use the most expensive sets, in fact I was able to shave off a good portion of the influence cost(about 60%) of such a build using the confusion set and hold set due to her build.  ALL of my builds tended to use orange IO's, as it was practical and I still got the results I needed.

Quick Edit: What I saw instead as an impractical build idea.  I saw most purple builds, even, as "Awesome yet impractical" at best.  At worst I saw "Ok so you got a ton of recharge but what of defense?".

[Fanta]

 ;)

Well geesh, if that was the case then, how is it op?  *rolls eyes*.

;)

[Codewalker]

I recall people only recorded like 60 some speed with rocket board/magic carpet, I was getting about 85 speed with afterburner + fly.  I am beginning to think your exagerating.

Right, because I have absolutely no idea how the mechanics of the powers work. If only someone had put together a database or something of them.  :roll:

Afterburner and the travel temps both give the same Max FlySpeed% and Max Fly. Rocket Board has a higher base +FlySpeed%, but Afterburner can be enhanced. So if you spend 3 power picks to get afterburner and buy 2 SOs, you can go faster than the Inherent at level 50.

Fly speed caps and modifiers vary by level, so the advantage of Rocket Board grows as you approach level 1. Below level 30-ish IIRC, you physically cannot go as fast as the purchased inherents with the flight pool.

The downside of course is that it annoys toggle-heavy builds by dropping them (and boy did people whine about that on the forums!). You can't attack with either power. But I find melee classes with a whole powerset that does nothing but defense incredibly boring and very rarely played them. :P

I could go on, but nitpicking over details isn't why I was posting. Neither were free players, I was only talking about the advantage one subscriber has over another due to extra store purchases. It changed the core premise of the game, and not in what I think is a good way.

One need not look any further than this very thread at the sense of entitlement people still feel for the purchases of virtual items from a company that no longer wants anything to do with them, for something that amounts to no more than a few bits in a database somewhere (that may or may not even still exist).

[FloatingFatMan]

Didn't you guys just like, play the game for FUN instead of all the silly min/maxing?

[Skull Thuggery]

For plenty of people, silly min/maxing WAS fun.

[FloatingFatMan]

Meh. I was having too much fun playing the game and beating mobs to waste my time fiddling with trying to get just 1 more DPS.  My triform PB could steamroll anything that got in my way, that was enough for me.

[LaughingAlex]

Right, because I have absolutely no idea how the mechanics of the powers work. If only someone had put together a database or something of them.  :roll:

Afterburner and the travel temps both give the same Max FlySpeed% and Max Fly. Rocket Board has a higher base +FlySpeed%, but Afterburner can be enhanced. So if you spend 3 power picks to get afterburner and buy 2 SOs, you can go faster than the Inherent at level 50.

Fly speed caps and modifiers vary by level, so the advantage of Rocket Board grows as you approach level 1. Below level 30-ish IIRC, you physically cannot go as fast as the purchased inherents with the flight pool.

The downside of course is that it annoys toggle-heavy builds by dropping them (and boy did people whine about that on the forums!). You can't attack with either power. But I find melee classes with a whole powerset that does nothing but defense incredibly boring and very rarely played them. :P

I could go on, but nitpicking over details isn't why I was posting. Neither were free players, I was only talking about the advantage one subscriber has over another due to extra store purchases. It changed the core premise of the game, and not in what I think is a good way.

One need not look any further than this very thread at the sense of entitlement people still feel for the purchases of virtual items from a company that no longer wants anything to do with them, for something that amounts to no more than a few bits in a database somewhere (that may or may not even still exist).

I was getting 85 speed with no slots spent on fly or afterburner, just one IO in each of them and even then your looking at a 35 IO.  Thing was, bottom line, I didn't take every power from a set most the time, but I didn't see the practicality of taking say, leadership with a powerset set.  This was especially true with more expensive sets or perhaps sets with features already built in.  Time manips for example didn't need leadership: Tactics, because they had a hefty +tohit buff.  So on toons like that, I had the slots left over but even say no reason to take, say, tough/weave.  So I had some power slots with no use, so I took fly + afterburner.  Even though I had ninja running, I still took the combo.

I agree with you on the entitlement part with some people saying things.

If thats how you feel about things, it's how you feel about em.  I didn't feel to negative either way.  The inspirations, perhaps, but even then, I already saw teams that were curb stomping things long before that cause they were using their own powers correctly. 

[Codewalker]

What's funny is I CAN min/max, but the majority of my characters just ran SOs slotted on the fly because I couldn't be bothered to take the time to plan it...

The real goal here is of course to break 125 pages of the thread. Gotta derail it with something until there's more actual news.