New efforts!

[MWRuger]

It is common when dealing with public companies like NCSoft that they set down particular requirements before a sale of property. Making sure the other company has a suitable organization, has sufficient assets to back production, has the right talent to support it, and so forth. The reason why is that if the company they did business with goes under unexpectedly, or worse is a fly-by-night operation, then the public company would get a massive hit on the stock price. It makes them very cautious.

Speaking as someone who worked for a company which was part of such deals in the past. We had to have complete audits, even of the items we had at our cubicles. Even a smartphone out of place could get you fired, they were that afraid of the wrong information leaking during the negotiations and killing the deal.

Yeah I skipped all of this level of detail because most of it happens after the major stumbling points have been ironed out. No point in paying for expensive audits when a deal killer is still sitting there to be dealt with. This part comes after that and before the meeting to ink the final deal takes place. It's call "due diligence" and you want to be careful. Doing this wrong can cost a lot a people their jobs when you accidently open your company up to unassessed liability. The good news is by the time you get to this point b oth parties have been working together for a while and know what to expect.

[MWRuger]

This. So very much this.

The market never really bothered me, but it sure did confuse the heck out of me for a long time. Then one day I got tired of being poor, and decided it was time to read those guides and see if they worked.

And hooey boy, did they ever work. Once I started actually doing what they were recommending, I began bringing in hundreds of millions of inf at a time. You're so right that many of the experts were very helpful; they wanted to see you making gobs of inf too, because they knew there was plenty enough to go around.

Just like with using IO sets, the only difficult thing about the market was the learning curve. Figuring it out the first time could be tough, but once it 'clicked' and you saw how simple it really was, it was hard to want to do it any other way.

Yeah, sometimes you marketed without even realizing it. (NOT KIDDING) You hit level 25 or so have 500 million and go "huh. I do just a little marketing and I/O this guy out by 35 or 40!" You don't even remember where it came from!

[Tubbius]

Nice to see an update from Ironwolf.  Glad to know things are still potentially going.  Keep strong, folks.  Hold torches, and all that.  :)

[Solitaire]

*UPDATE*

I don't have a lot of news but they are threading through the Corporate hoops and at least have a person who knows NCSoft well to try and make it easier. I know I have said this before but with big companies it really is part of their process. It could take a while - sorry to say. I have an idea to try that might cut through some of the red tape and have the approval to try it. The business side of things is a vastly different world from what most people have experience with.

Folks here is the reality of what is happening: NCSoft and Cryptic will insist their logos remain on the game as they want recognition for their efforts in the past. Due to this they do not want their name on a product run by a group who will not do it justice. This did stop at least 2 different groups from acquiring it in the past, that had money but no true studio. These delays and hoops to jump through are part of the vetting process. It is going to take time to let them see the group making the offer is serious and does have the resources to pull it off.

Like them or loathe them NCSoft has actually done well in choosing the studios for games - the track record on the games isn't as good as the companies they pick. The folks are working on it and may need to make adjustments to reflect what NCSoft wants to see. You can be assured silence is not reflecting a lack of effort.

Thank you for the update Ironwolf, will continue to monitor patiently with fingers crossed all goes well for the team, off back to Mids & Icon.

[thunderforce]

This post has me somewhat in a quandry.. and its probably because I dont understand how the corporate structure works..
They were given a price.. and a meeting was to take place...
so why are they threading through "corporate hoops"
Im not really asking the why.. its more help me to understand the process of how the structure works..

Well, it's not like buying a lump of coal (or even a thousand tons of coal). Once I've sold you the coal, it's gone. There's no follow-on effects. The game's being licensed, not sold; that creates an ongoing relationship, and immediately raises the question of what exactly is being bought - defining exactly what the successor group gets and can and cannot do is complicated.

Likewise, this logo question: City of Heroes is, like it or not, associated with NCSoft. They'll want to get as much good publicity out of that association as possible. So, for example, they won't want the successor group to be called "Screw you NC, Inc."; they will want a series of nice fluffy press releases where the successor group talks about how marvellous they are. And yes, they'll want their logo plastered on it if they can get it. The quid pro quo, of course, is that the price might thereby be reduced, or the successor group might (will, I hope) aim to write a contract that makes it impossible for the game to be shut down six months later.

Back to the regularly scheduled off-topic:

"Ebil marketers" was a designation marketers revelled in, and no wonder - "marketers are evil" is obviously false, and by concentrating on those very extreme accusations, they made their opponents look ridiculous (as the ones who claimed that they were evil were).

"Marketers are a bit of a nuisance for non-marketers", that's a bit trickier. That might raise awkward questions about how the auction house mechanics could be changed to discourage marketing.

I notice we've had about sixteen iterations of "why should I care how someone else plays the game". You should care when it affects how you play the game, which often it does. Give someone a "level me from 1 to 50 now" button, I don't care... until I end up on a team with them, clock ticking in the Cavern of Transcendence.

[darkgob]

I notice we've had about sixteen iterations of "why should I care how someone else plays the game". You should care when it affects how you play the game, which often it does. Give someone a "level me from 1 to 50 now" button, I don't care... until I end up on a team with them, clock ticking in the Cavern of Transcendence.

What a ridiculous argument.

No one ran Cavern of Transcendence.  :P

[thunderforce]

No one ran Cavern of Transcendence.  :P

I had nine copies of the badge (and yes, I still have my badge tracking file, don't we all?) and I'm sure I ran one or two more just to make up the numbers. Of course, most of those would have been with people from a badgehunting channel who could be relied on not to be idiots, but presumably there are quite a few extra runs earlier in my CoX life where someone goes "uh sorry guys I gtg" or a series of comedy wipes ensued or the early exemplaring implementation flaked out and kicked someone or...

[silvers1]

What a ridiculous argument.

No one ran Cavern of Transcendence.  :P

I never ran it that I recall, and I was around since pre-order beta.  :)

[Ironwolf]

I'll see if I can explain this. What probably happened is something like this. They informally asked NCSoft what they wanted for the property, engine or whatever. NCSoft said 7,509, 266 Quatloos. Unknown investor group says "doable". That was the easy part.

You ask that first, because there is no point in going through the hassle of hiring attorneys, checking for right clearances, arranging a meeting, hiring translators if both parties can't even get into the same area on price.

Now both sides will look for deal breakers. What could derail the entire process? If either side finds a potential one, they won't talk about it, but their negotiators will see what kind of wiggle room there is and what both parties will accept to overcome the obstacle.

Take this Cryptic question. In NCSoft's mind this might be something they want so that Cryptic can't come back and cry foul. When that deal was done, it is likely that neither party envisioned a future sale of the property, so likely there is no language in the contract. So the negotiators will discuss with the unknown buyers "would you have a problem keeping Cryptic's name on there?" Unknown buyers signal "Yes or No". If they say yes then NCsoft will likely contact Cryptic and ask if they feel like they are entitled to keep the name on the game if it's sold. Their lawyers will look at the sales agreement and see if they can or should force the issue. Eventually someone at Cryptic will say yes or no. Depending on the answer negotiators will try and figure out an agreement that everyone can live with to avoid litigation. But if two parties become intractable, the deal's off.

You also have to consider strategy. Maybe you give on the Cryptic thing because you know of some other hurdle. You can use the give and take to soften the other sides position. Sometimes you argue hard knowing you are giving in so the other side feels like they have rung a concession from you.

There is no way we can know from where we are how many issues like this must be resolved.

BUT, once all the points have been settled and draft agreements have been typed, read by both sides, vetted by the lawyers then and only then will the actual buyers and the actual sellers meet. This can be the most delicate moment of the entire deal. If either side gets jittery the entire thing can collapse.

Assuming that doesn't happen, both sides sign the deal (also assuming no governmental authorities throw up a roadblock). Then a new round of negotiations will start about the timetable and the transfer of assets.

Then once the considerations are met, payments made, assets transferred, implementation debugged, we are ready for a new closed beta.

Keep in mind that secrecy is vital at most stages because you don't want to tip your hand to the other side. AND this assumes a relatively straight forward deal. Numerous complications can arise. Suppose another interested party comes out of the wood works? Suppose the former Paragon Devs feel that their contracts entitle them to some cut? (just an example)

Anything that has to be adjudicated adds final cost to the deal and both parties will assess whether they want to move forward. Since it is an international deal, which court will you file in, the counter motions alone can be expensive as well as jurisdictional disputes.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but these are the kind of things that have to be dealt with and it takes time and money. The more money involved, the more careful everyone wants to be. In a case where both sides are motivated and mostly in agreement, it can go pretty fast. If not, then it can take longer. But everyone needs to understand that it's not a simple deal where someone says "Wanna buy a MMO?" and the other guy says "Take my Money!" and they celebrate.

PS. NO, I don't know that any of these things are actual issues since I'm not involved with the project, but they might be, so be patient.

I would say this about nails it. Remember nothing is easy once the lawyers get involved.

[batgirl]

Amazing.  thanks the devil I know :)

[Mindshadow]

So they did a guide that showed mission by mission, with screenshots showing what dropped and how they sold it and so on. You would think, that after all that, players would finally say "Huh. I guess you can make money pretty easily"

Nope, just like trying to corner the market, it didn't do a bit of good. People still wouldn't believe it, even with screenshots.

But really, overall, they were some of the nicest and most helpful people I ever met, in game or out, despite being reviled by a large amount of the player base.

Though one of the reasons it was so easy to share that information was that you could tell it to people and they usually wouldn't believe you.  :D

[Ironwolf]

I hope after Devil's post you understand a bit more as to why I have kind of been a volunteer PR flunky.

I have also passed on any offers of help or funding I have recieved without giving the details of who they go to. I do work for a large company and I know how the layers of the onion need to be peeled. We absolutely don't want a second offer to hit the table and extend the period by months. We don't want a letter campaign saying sell the game naow!

It is a process where each side not just NCSoft may have issues that need to be resolved. It isn't an impossibility that NCSoft may offer the same deal Cryptic did - where they profit share for a time so that they are sure they game is in good hands for a while before turning over full ownership. There are a lot of hurdles but again the folks who are doing it love the game and want it back as much as we do - maybe more because they are putting their time and money into it.

[Harpospoke]

Folks here is the reality of what is happening: NCSoft and Cryptic will insist their logos remain on the game as they want recognition for their efforts in the past. Due to this they do not want their name on a product run by a group who will not do it justice. This did stop at least 2 different groups from acquiring it in the past, that had money but no true studio. These delays and hoops to jump through are part of the vetting process. It is going to take time to let them see the group making the offer is serious and does have the resources to pull it off.

Ok...that's good info and makes sense from NCSoft's position.  (We rarely get anything from their point of view)

[Harpospoke]

When it's Malta - Sappers DIE First.

Ghost widow - Never figured a good strategy for her. That hold and kill you attack that never seemed to fail was literal murder.

Hee hee...I was one of the people who loved Malta.   Just a lot of fun to kill (arrest?) them because they were a pain in the butt.   I held grudges and could not see them fall enough.   ;D    The Sappers were toast...everyone wanted them dead first.   Kinda funny.   I was usually a Controller so they got held before they could get a shot off.   Those darn Gunslingers were next on my list.

Never got tired of defeating GW either.   You earned it when you beat her.

[MWRuger]

Though one of the reasons it was so easy to share that information was that you could tell it to people and they usually wouldn't believe you.  :D

To be fair, if some one was working a particular niche, like say level 15 stealth procs, they wouldn't mention it on the forum. Not because of non-marketers, but because they were competitive with each other.

They talked about strategy in general terms. In the case I mentioned of screenshots, they showed things that illustrated the point but didn't give away and personal niches. I never asked, but I also didn't volunteer my personal strategy.

But if/When we get the game back, I'm sure there will be a market forum. There will be people that you can either yell at for being ebil or that you can ask questions of or get help. It is entirely your choice.

Lots of choices made this a great game.

[MWRuger]

Amazing.  thanks the devil I know :)

You're Welcome! I'm glad it was useful.

[Harpospoke]

Absolutely, I really don't care if folks power level, farm for loot or XP, or if they sell influ. I have PL'd more than a few toons myself, some were mine and some were friends. I even bought influ, once redside and once blueside to fund the creation of my own SGs, VGs and bases. I had two accounts so that I did not have to depend on someone else to invite my toons to the S/VGs. I did tons of solo runs and duo's with one of my other accounts toon's in tow.

Yet another thing I did.   Dual-boxing two accounts.   I had so many different characters that trying new combinations were endlessly fun.   Put one on follow with a useful power on auto....like a Tanker taunting or a Controller single-target hold.   (You just had to be careful about not selecting a target until you were ready for the 2nd character to engage)

[Harpospoke]

I notice we've had about sixteen iterations of "why should I care how someone else plays the game". You should care when it affects how you play the game, which often it does. Give someone a "level me from 1 to 50 now" button, I don't care... until I end up on a team with them, clock ticking in the Cavern of Transcendence.

I tried that one once and it failed badly...with a team of players with all the badges.   Seemed really hard to get everyone on the same page.   It was just hard to do.  I noticed that any type of failure in the game was attributed to PL'ers so I'm sure quite a few people assumed their CoT failed for that reason too.   8)

I played on Freedom and never noticed any effect on my experience from PL'ers.   Probably helped that I ran my own PuG's.   Being the leader of the team really helps you play the way you want.   ;D

[Harpospoke]

Lots of choices made this a great game.

Preach on, brother!

[MWRuger]

I tried that one once and it failed badly...with a team of players with all the badges.   Seemed really hard to get everyone on the same page.   It was just hard to do.  I noticed that any type of failure in the game was attributed to PL'ers so I'm sure quite a few people assumed their CoT failed for that reason too.   8)

I played on Freedom and never noticed any effect on my experience from PL'ers.   Probably helped that I ran my own PuG's.   Being the leader of the team really helps you play the way you want.   ;D

I had the same experience. we failed because we didn't know what we were doing. PL'ing had nothing to do with it. Nobody had done it, they were doing as a favor to me and half the team was a PUG. Can you imagine a worse mix?

But i also ran it twice more with people who knew how. It was actually the easiest trial in the game. The trick is that you needed someone who had personal stealth and recall friend. With that it is easy.

1. Party starts trial and enters Tunnels of Trolls.

2. Stealther goes to entrance of main room, teleports everyone there.

3. Everyone enters the main room. You do NOTHING. Sit Tight.

4. Stealther goes to each obelisk, teleports each party member to an obelisk. You do NOTHING. Sit Tight.

5. Leader says when the timer reaches a set point click the obelisk. If you screw up, then repeat.

6. Giant monster summoned.

7. You Kill it!

8. Afterwards kill igneous bosses for the defeat badge if you are a badge whore (like me).

9. You're done! enjoy a frosty beverage!