New efforts!

[ShadowMokadara]

I'll leave you with this: This was a COMIC BOOK game.

City of Heroes looked like a comic book.

I gotta disagree with this. It was a superhero game. CO is more of a comic book game. CoH didn't look like one, and I'm glad it didn't. CO's cartoony graphics make me want to die a little on the inside.

[AlienOne]

I gotta disagree with this. It was a superhero game. CO is more of a comic book game. CoH didn't look like one, and I'm glad it didn't. CO's cartoony graphics make me want to die a little on the inside.

You do realize superheroes came from...comic books....right?

[mrultimate]

I gotta disagree with this. It was a superhero game. CO is more of a comic book game. CoH didn't look like one, and I'm glad it didn't. CO's cartoony graphics make me want to die a little on the inside.

I think the difference here is comic book versus cartoon. I could relate Paragon to Metropolis and Gotham in my mind. Millennium City looks like something from a bad saturday morning cartoon.

[ShadowMokadara]

You do realize superheroes came from...comic books....right?

To this, I give this in response.

I think the difference here is comic book versus cartoon. I could relate Paragon to Metropolis and Gotham in my mind. Millennium City looks like something from a bad saturday morning cartoon.

[AlienOne]

I think the difference here is comic book versus cartoon. I could relate Paragon to Metropolis and Gotham in my mind. Millennium City looks like something from a bad saturday morning cartoon.

I can agree with that... I am certainly not saying the cell shading style in CO is good (someone else brought that up)--but the look of City of Heroes was supposed to harken back to classic comic book style--even a lot of the main characters had that style going for them...which is why I made my original statement (and still stand by it).

That style would be lost if we switched to some kind of "Crysis" or "Gears of War" look.

[ShadowMokadara]

I can agree with that... I am certainly not saying the cell shading style is good--but the look of City of Heroes was supposed to harken back to classic comic book style--even a lot of the main characters had that style going for them...which is why I made my original statement (and still stand by it).

That style would be lost if we switched to some kind of "Crysis" or "Gears of War" look.

I'm definitely in agreement that if it tried to go fully realistic that the costumes would look a little ridiculous. I realize superheroes came from comic books but it looked like it was more based off just superheroes, not the comic book style they came with. No big "BAM!" "POW!" signs or such. And I'm glad it didn't because I hated that in Champions. I had so much on my screen already.

 I guess it's that for its time, CoH had kind of "realistic" graphics for a MMO back in 2003/2004. And with stuff like building and water reflections as of Ultra Mode, it was catering more to that. That said, it never got out of control in trying to look realistic.

[Ironwolf]

And hopefully City of Heroes never will, but City of Heroes 2....................

[Felderburg]

I think that the gameplay was already changing. With sets like Dual Blades and Titan Weapons using stringed attacks, Dual Pistols using ammo, and what I understood as a desire to move more in that direction, it seems to me that the overall feel of powersets was becoming quite different from the original style of just nine themed powers.

[MWRuger]

Really most of the speculation about what we want vis-a-viv the look, style, with our old toons, COH2, etc is truly pointless and way too ahead of itself.

Until the game is actually bought and under development by the new owners, our views are at best immaterial and possibly harmful to the efforts. What if they look at all this discussion and decide that we would be impossible to please and decide to hell with it?

And really, won't we take our game anyway we can get it?

Let's wait until we have more data to debate this. I have strong ideas about what I would like as well, but to me, this isn't the time to air them. Once we know more, and more importantly once they are receptive to input, we can explain what we would like in nice, reasonable terms that might actually make a difference.  I am sure there will be a time for that. Just not now.


edit: I saw that Ironwolf already said this, I just didn't see it. oops!

[ShadowMokadara]

I think that the gameplay was already changing. With sets like Dual Blades and Titan Weapons using stringed attacks, Dual Pistols using ammo, and what I understood as a desire to move more in that direction, it seems to me that the overall feel of powersets was becoming quite different from the original style of just nine themed powers.

This was a very slow and gradual change rather than a flat out "BOOM EVERYTHING'S CHANGED".

[MWRuger]

BTW, Ironwolf, thank you again for keeping us updated. Any effort to return our City to us has my endorsement and support. I'm loving the hopeful feeling for a change.

[Felderburg]

This was a very slow and gradual change rather than a flat out "BOOM EVERYTHING'S CHANGED".

Fair enough. I still think that all the worry about change is unfounded, since the game had changed (ED, IOs, Incarnate stuff) and was in the process of changing.


As far as graphics go, I think the conversion to Ultra was the best way to go about things at the time. Allow players to keep the old graphics, either for nostalgia or hardware compliance, and then give the option for varying degrees of Ultra graphics. I think Ultra looked great, and I personally don't have a problem with updated graphics. I think a lot of the visual appeal is in the design, rather than the actual pixels on screen.

[mrultimate]

BTW, Ironwolf, thank you again for keeping us updated. Any effort to return our City to us has my endorsement and support. I'm loving the hopeful feeling for a change.

I wholeheartedly second this entire statement!

[MaxEternal]

I wholeheartedly second this entire statement!

Absolutely, as a person that seldom posts, but reads these posts often, I am very thankful for these efforts to return the game as well! 

[Flamazing Sally]

Absolutely, as a person that seldom posts, but reads these posts often, I am very thankful for these efforts to return the game as well!



Ditto ! ! !

[Solitaire]

Really most of the speculation about what we want vis-a-viv the look, style, with our old toons, COH2, etc is truly pointless and way too ahead of itself.

Until the game is actually bought and under development by the new owners, our views are at best immaterial and possibly harmful to the efforts. What if they look at all this discussion and decide that we would be impossible to please and decide to hell with it?

And really, we won't take our game anyway we can get it?

Let's wait until we have more data to debate this. I have strong ideas about what I would like as well, but to me, this isn't the time to air them. Once we know more, and more importantly once they are receptive to input, we can explain what we would like if nice reasonable terms that might actually make a difference.  I am sure there will be a time for that. Just not now.


edit: I saw that Ironwolf already said this, I just didn't see it. oops!

Agree with the above, let's keep focused on getting the game that we ALL love back before debating what should or shouldn't be used or not used, I know we all have different ideas, and this is what made the game so great  Hopefully once the game is back with the fans, the new owners will look to the fans to see what they do or don't want to happen!

BTW, Ironwolf, thank you again for keeping us updated. Any effort to return our City to us has my endorsement and support. I'm loving the hopeful feeling for a change.

Ditto, Ironwolf your doing a great job thank you for keeping the hope alive.

[LaughingAlex]

The game was never frozen or static - but the same game with more options and better graphics in the long run is a good thing.

Now does that mean you can't run it forever on that 10 year old laptop? Most likely in the future - stopping to savor the fact that we might HAVE A FUTURE - the game will require hardware upgrades.

What you have in your memory is an ideal - reality was that the game moved forward to whatever vision the Devs wanted. The original Lead Dev wasn't Statesman. Once the game was sold Positron was the man. But other people did have effects on the game - my own personal contribution was the Super Sidekick. I posted in a threead on how to stop power leveling a simple solution:

Make all players the same level as the mission holder or team leader (in the streets) and then you effectively killed the golden goose. It didn't stop all the Pl'ing - they found other ways but it did fix teaming mismatches. I didn't realize until much later one of the players commenting that was a really good idea - was a Dev!

I guess what I am saying is the game constantly changed but what remained was the core gameplay. I personally think the folks making this effort understand that very well.

Thats what I liked about CoX, was that the developers were very progressive(not the political definition, but in terms of just thinking forward with game design), they always thought about "how can we make this game funner without alienating everyone?".  The super sidekick was the best change they'd ever made.  The fact that new powersets focused on buffs/debuffs and crowd control, the few sets they introduced that did focus on healing even had some mitigation, it was clear they played the game.

I once Rp'd with a gm on Cascavica, said gm got a pretty clear picture of the kind of insanity she had when she spoke of "consuming the minds of others for the heck of it".  Yeah, she's not exactly a hero, he called her on it .

[Nebularis]

And hopefully City of Heroes never will, but City of Heroes 2....................

This sounds almost sinister....  Please explain!

[Kaos Arcanna]

If the game was to come back, I think a different engine is pretty much going to be a requirement at some point. I've said before that I've heard Matt Miller say that he didn't think even if the game was bought and came back he didn't think anyone who wasn't part of the late Paragon Studio would be able to handle the mess the code had become.

So, I think that anyone who did bring the game back would probably either have to hire some of the old Devs or make a deal with Cryptic for maintenance and support which would eat into the profits of the game.

[Azrael]

And hopefully City of Heroes never will, but City of Heroes 2....................

Exactly.

Firstly, I'd like to thank Ironwolf for keeping the Titan Network and CoH fans informed.  It's quite exciting!  'We' have a contact, a price and a meeting.  Amazing news.  Hopefully, things can progress from here.

And if things don't.  I get the feeling we'll know more about 'why not' this time around.

Which means?  The numerous offers of financial help and technical help can be pursued.  And, egos asides..., maybe 'all' can pool their efforts for one giant push to 'persuade' NC Soft that the CoH community can, financially and technically, STEP UP to bring the game 'home.'

To the efforts currently under way, I say...'God speed.'

As for the 'worries.'

I think with any possibly 'buy out' will have to have a basic plan.  It's this...

1. Get the Classic CoH game back up and running. 

(Make it pay.  At least break even.  I once saw 30 thousand subs quoted as the amount for an MMO game to 'break even.'  I think the CoH community will 'walk' that number!)

- Re-launch the game.  Get the community buzzing.
- Hot on it's 'heals?' (heh...)  Finish and put out issue 24 to bring more subscribers on board.
- Develop and finish a probably sketchily finished issue 25.  Introduce the galactic threat...invasion style.
- Develop the galactic threat and the 'Moon Setting' that Matt Miller was talking about.  FINALLY, some more interior mission maps.  Raise the level cap to 60.  Add solo incarnate capability (for those like me who hated Legion hoards of chaos missions...)  And complete the incarnate power tree.  (And, I'd argue, give it a more traditional interface like the one for 1st, 2ndary and tertiary and epic power sets.  The devs' lost the plot on the Incarnate interface.  Deary me...)

What does this do?  This gets the community back on track.  It gets the developers focused.  It brings back subbers who had left the game.  Get the basic subs numbers back up to 100K, easily with this amount of work.  Maybe 125-150k depending on the quality of the issues 24-25 and finally, with the 'Moon base' a proper end game.

2.  CoH 2.

Show the other MMOs WE MEAN BUSiNESS.  Because, YES SIR!  Not only are we keeping the 'Classic game play and game' for those who want to play it... (I'm guessing 75k-100k still will!  Including ME!  That will make the classic game pay over 3 times over...)

We are going to shoot a sidewinder over the parapets of every MMO out there..! 

- Develop Coh 2

- Phase 1.

- Keep Classic CoH gameplay and design.
- Ultra Mode 2.0!  Update all graphics.  All maps, characters, interfaces, game play are THE SAME!  99.9% port efficient.  (See Irish Girl's demo of Oro for how good CoH '2' could look!)
- To achieve this?  Go to the Unreal 4 engine.
- Keep everything.  But ported to the new engine.

Phase 2.

- Raise the level cap to L70.
- Introduce new Power Sets graphical 'particle' effects that show what Unreal 4 engine can really do.
- Introduce new designs of Archetype sets that REALLY show the versality of the new engine.
- Introduce new game play types that take advantage of a more flexible engine.
- Introduce new 'ultra' realistic interior maps that REALLY show what Unreal 4 engine can do.
- Introduce new zones that show what the new engine can REALLY do.

So.

We get:

1. Classic.

We keep 'her' just the way we remember the 'old' girl.

2. CoH 2.

Phase 1.

Ultra Mode 2.  CoH ports to a new engine and puts the 'old' assets in a more polished light.

3. CoH 2.

Phase 2.

Introduces the 'new' augmented game gradually.  New interior maps.  New zones.  New Archetypes.  New Power Sets.  New graphical fidelity.  New play types.  (Inspired by 'classic' mode but not 'constrained' by it.

It keeps those who just want to play classic happy.  (Me.)

Keeps those who want it updated to a new engine happy.  (Me.)

Keeps those who want a game to extend into new territories happy.  (Me.)

You get Vanilla.  You get Strawberry.  And yes.  You get chocolate.


This is a progressive plan.  A sensible one.  You get the game up and running.  You get it making money.  You bring back the community.  The loyal 75-100K base customers who had it closed down on them.  The '50k'+ who had got bored after the launch of CoV with the lack of true end game, lack of new interior maps you can bring back...and give them a reason or three to hang around this time.  i.e.. Proper End game.  Interior maps given a new lease of life.  Raise the Level cap to 60 to get people back and playing with new and proper end game content.  Increase the 'stickiness' of the classic game.

But to poach the MMO players from eve online to WoW to other pretenders?  CoH 2.  Incorporating new engine.  Classic gameplay.  Ultra Mode 2 graphical upgrade.  New CoH 2 based play types, archetypes, maps, zones, power sets to push the game forward.  You get the 'old' but you progress to the 'new' on the same engine.  You can choose classic gameplay in the classic zones given 'buffed up' graphics on the new engine or you can 'try' the new direction with super enhanced Ultra Mode 3 (which really cuts loose on the new engine with the Coh 2 in these new maps, new zones and new archetypes looking more like the tech demos of Unreal4 engine with dazzling particle effects, animation and realistic character geometry/textures!) influenced but not limited by 'classic' mode.  Progressive development into new directions due to the flexibility the new engine gives you.

It goes without saying that the new group would do well to reach out to the community of CoH, ex-developers etc to get the game back up and running and help get issue 24 and 25 out the door within a year of re-launch.

And yes.  The new group, if they succeed, can have my development plan free of charge, Ironwolf.

Azrael.