New efforts!

[Taceus Jiwede]

And that's why I stopped playing EVE, before I'd even barely gotten through the tutorial.  Never before have I seen so many ridiculous jerks hanging around in newbie areas and provoking them into doing something stupid, then blowing them into dust.  This is not how you encourage new people to hang around.

Like thunderforce says I think you have to be a certain kind of player to enjoy it.  I don't mind dirty PvP but EVE is just a little too dirty for me.  But I think if you are into that more bandit PvP style it is just a matter of toughing out a rough start.  Eventually, you will get to the point where you can defend yourself and then you eventually become the bandit or join up the with the groups of bandit-killers that would inevitably arise.  At the very least like minded players who find safety in numbers.

In games like EVE it almost seems like a rite of passage to be 'rekted' a few times as a beginner player.   That's why it seems to have a somewhat small yet dedicated player base, not a game for everyone but it fills the niche some people are looking for perfectly.

I am with you though, I don't need the frustration of being murdered a bunch early on.  Although I will admit in games like UO I did my fair share of PKing and ganking.  I was rather young though so I wasn't very good at it.

[Arcana]

In games like EVE it almost seems like a rite of passage to be 'rekted' a few times as a beginner player.   That's why it seems to have a somewhat small yet dedicated player base, not a game for everyone but it fills the niche some people are looking for perfectly.

As far as I'm aware, while Eve Online doesn't have mega millions of players, it has several times more players than City of Heroes had at its peak.  By my estimation, Eve Online is a "medium-sized" MMO.

[Taceus Jiwede]

As far as I'm aware, while Eve Online doesn't have mega millions of players, it has several times more players than City of Heroes had at its peak.  By my estimation, Eve Online is a "medium-sized" MMO.

I wasn't quite sure the exact numbers so I decided to use "somewhat small" to provide a little leeway.  Regardless though, there is a reason it is a Medium sized MMO and games like WoW, where you can't be murdered at random, have a much larger customer base.

[Brigadine]

And that's why I stopped playing EVE, before I'd even barely gotten through the tutorial.  Never before have I seen so many ridiculous jerks hanging around in newbie areas and provoking them into doing something stupid, then blowing them into dust.  This is not how you encourage new people to hang around.

The DEVs have determined that the thing you speak of is good for the game.

[Brigadine]

Like thunderforce says I think you have to be a certain kind of player to enjoy it.  I don't mind dirty PvP but EVE is just a little too dirty for me.  But I think if you are into that more bandit PvP style it is just a matter of toughing out a rough start.  Eventually, you will get to the point where you can defend yourself and then you eventually become the bandit or join up the with the groups of bandit-killers that would inevitably arise.  At the very least like minded players who find safety in numbers.

In games like EVE it almost seems like a rite of passage to be 'rekted' a few times as a beginner player.   That's why it seems to have a somewhat small yet dedicated player base, not a game for everyone but it fills the niche some people are looking for perfectly.

I am with you though, I don't need the frustration of being murdered a bunch early on.  Although I will admit in games like UO I did my fair share of PKing and ganking.  I was rather young though so I wasn't very good at it.

I honestly do not know how I have stuck with it for 4 years. Good fights are so rare. Not 5 minutes before writing this I died without ever even getting a chance to fight back. In City of Heroes terms its like being held with no expiration timer and no inspiration break frees. It honestly really isn't fun when 4 of the weakest things in the game can kill a mid strength thing without the mid strength thing ever being allowed to fight back.

[Mistress Urd]

I honestly do not know how I have stuck with it for 4 years. Good fights are so rare. Not 5 minutes before writing this I died without ever even getting a chance to fight back. In City of Heroes terms its like being held with no expiration timer and no inspiration break frees. It honestly really isn't fun when 4 of the weakest things in the game can kill a mid strength thing without the mid strength thing ever being allowed to fight back.

I've had far more fun in PVP in destiny, Different goals, maps etc, even if you get your head bashed in for 10 minutes you have a decent chance of getting a good item so you keep coming back for more. EVE fights are often PVPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP or they scout out what you have and just bring in a superior force. I played EVE and CoH when both game were running. Sometimes I liked taking a break from CoH just to experience something different and EVE was different enough with lots of different things to do.

[thunderforce]

And that's why I stopped playing EVE, before I'd even barely gotten through the tutorial.  Never before have I seen so many ridiculous jerks hanging around in newbie areas and provoking them into doing something stupid, then blowing them into dust.  This is not how you encourage new people to hang around.

Most of the sneakier can flipping provocations went away with the new Crimewatch system (and I think that was a good thing, the old system was pretty opaque), but fundamentally it's expected that most people who try it won't like it, and it's not a deficiency in the game if the people who won't like it find out early. If you want to know if you like Marmite sandwiches, you don't do it by eating ham sandwiches and maybe putting in a bit of Marmite later.

The sort of people who were ever going to like EVE are not discouraged by that sort of thing. They plot to get even.

[LaughingAlex]

Dude, I feel ya.  I've felt much of the same since CoH died and I really don't like it.  I've tried lots of different MMO's since then but, until recently, nothing has sated my "need", as it were.

So what changed?  On a friends encouragement, I picked up a game I've tried a couple of times in the last 2 years, previously without really enjoying it, but decided to give it another go.  What I found has... well, it's cheered me up no end!  Before I was just going through the motions, but this time I actually paid attention to the story and found myself loving it!  It's engaging, fantastically written; has dropped my jaw in several places, left me feeling stunned in others, and a couple of times, has kicked me so hard in the feels that it even brought a tear to me eye! I levelled my way up to the cap, I've started working on various jobs, I've even being doing a lot of raiding and PvP (and anyone who knows me, knows I HATE PvP, with a passion!)

And what is this game, you ask?  Final Fantasy XIV.  Go play it.  The trial is now unlimited and you can get to level 35 in all the classes so you can get a good way into the story AND do some raiding too!

I know, replying about 6 days late here but...

It's not really mmorpgs that i'm really into anymore.  Guild wars had enough pidgin holing and I'm not an otaku.  In other words I'm ultra-tired of things anime in games unless it's something I'd messed with some time ago like say FF7(or maybe an earlier installment I hadn't played).  I mean when I play Skyrim and Fallout 4, mods that I see on nexus(90% of which are bad, and number in the hundreds or worst) seriously turn me off from modern games that are anime themed.  Plus I didn't entirely like the incarnate trials all that much, it was enough to run them to get some tier 3's/4's, but not enough to run them for the sake of it.  Plus DCUO's raid content left me feeling burn out pretty fast and I only ran it's raids a few times.

I really just don't see myself touching another mmorpg.  I don't wish a repeat of the same problems I saw in guild wars of waiting 30+ minutes for someone of a specific role with no friends on and having to pick up sub-par henchmen(or have to use a couple of heroes), of not getting any credit if I decide I play a damage dealer or tank(or anything non-healer).  I don't have that kind of time every day to wait 30+ minutes doing nothing but preparing to have fun.  I admit, I'd pondered looking at GW2 but even then I hear similar problems once again cropped up(only reason I look at GW2 is Arena.net is no longer under NCSoft I hear, I'd have to re-check that to see if thats still true).

I dunno, I am starting to think the genre is not a fit, CoH was an exception because of it's depth, tactical nature and how one didn't have to wait around all day for a healer when trying to do earlier content(looking at you luxon side of guild wars factions that I could never, ever, ever progress with henchmen).

[Arcana]

I wasn't quite sure the exact numbers so I decided to use "somewhat small" to provide a little leeway.  Regardless though, there is a reason it is a Medium sized MMO and games like WoW, where you can't be murdered at random, have a much larger customer base.

Eve Online is unique in many ways, so I don't think you can argue that its success or failure hinges on just one aspect of its gameplay.  But if you choose to do so, Eve Online actually represents the *success* of the open PvP model, in that it is a long-lasting successful MMO that has grown its subscriber base for most of the years of its existence, all while maintaining a relatively laissez faire attitude towards open PvP.  Lineage 2, if I recall correctly, has open PvP, and I believe it has a larger player base than many non-open PvP MMOs.

Probably equally interesting to note is that Eve Online is currently one of the most successful subscription-based MMOs out there.  In a world where F2P is squeezing the subscription market and stealing customers, Eve has resisted most of that pressure in recent years.  It apparently doesn't have quite as much subscribers as it did at its peak, but it is still flirting with around 400k of them.  That's a medium-sized MMO in general, but it is a pretty large subscriber-based MMO.

[Aron]

Probably equally interesting to note is that Eve Online is currently one of the most successful subscription-based MMOs out there.  In a world where F2P is squeezing the subscription market and stealing customers, Eve has resisted most of that pressure in recent years.  It apparently doesn't have quite as much subscribers as it did at its peak, but it is still flirting with around 400k of them.  That's a medium-sized MMO in general, but it is a pretty large subscriber-based MMO.

CCP did introduce a F2P option last year.  Compared to most F2P games though it is highly restrictive in what resources the free mode players have access too.

[Brigadine]

CCP did introduce a F2P option last year.  Compared to most F2P games though it is highly restrictive in what resources the free mode players have access too.

Its basically an unlimited trial. I wouldn't even call it F2p.

[Aron]

Its basically an unlimited trial. I wouldn't even call it F2p.

I don't entirely agree.  While the "Alpha" mode access does keep a player from the best(aka Tech 2, faction, deadspace) equipment and the easiest forms of income generation it is perfectly possible to build combat effective ships for both pve and PvP on an alpha character.  Certainly enough to eventually bootstrap yourself up to purchase the in-game PLEX units so that you can upgrade to full status.  One lucky run into wormhole space and you could probably do it in a few days.  Granted not *likely* but also not once in a blue moon kind of thing.  CCP wants that kind of thing to be attainable for the persistent.

[Surelle]

Its basically an unlimited trial. I wouldn't even call it F2p.

Agreed. I had 5 accounts for years, and tried unsuccessfully to undock with all 5 mains in turn a couple months ago.  I couldn't undock a ship with even one of them.  I couldn't train any skills, either, so I logged off and deleted the install.  It's really just a trial for brand new characters is all.  That's fine; I wasn't sitting around demanding the world for free.  However, CCP is their own worst enemy, and at that Fanfest where Mittani tried to get that fellow player to commit suicide in real life on camera whilst CCP's GMs sat around yukking it up beside him (and Mittens was trying to goad the entire player base to do the same) made me so ill I swore I would never go back anyway.  And CCP didn't even ban Mittens!  But then when players defaced their precious *statue* in Iceland, they perma-banned.  Give me a break!  So it's just as well I guess.

[thunderforce]

Agreed. I had 5 accounts for years, and tried unsuccessfully to undock with all 5 mains in turn a couple months ago.  I couldn't undock a ship with even one of them.

I'm not sure that's that remarkable - you can get a lot done under alpha restrictions, up to flying a battlecruiser (one specific battlecruiser), but if you've been playing for years without any view to those restrictions (since they didn't exist) you're pretty unlikely not to be in a ship or fit that doesn't have _some_ non-alpha stuff. In City terms, the costume creator wouldn't be useless if I could only use red and yellow, but I wouldn't be surprised if none of my existing costumes fit that restriction.

However, CCP is their own worst enemy, and at that Fanfest where Mittani tried to get that fellow player to commit suicide in real life on camera

While Mittens was a complete drunken oaf on that occasion, and was very lucky not to get banned (especially given the bans handed out years later to the "Bonus Room" crowd), I don't think one can really suppose he was literally trying to get anyone to commit suicide; rather, he was making a joke in astonishingly poor taste.

[Victoria Victrix]

rather, he was making a joke in astonishingly poor taste.

Funny thing.  That's exactly what bullies always say.  "It's just a joke!  Can't you take a joke?"

[thunderforce]

Funny thing.  That's exactly what bullies always say.  "It's just a joke!  Can't you take a joke?"

I'm not saying his conduct was acceptable, just that it was not literally an attempt to get someone else to commit suicide. There's plenty of room for conduct to be unacceptable below that bar!

[cmgangrel]

I admit, I'd pondered looking at GW2 but even then I hear similar problems once again cropped up(only reason I look at GW2 is Arena.net is no longer under NCSoft I hear, I'd have to re-check that to see if thats still true).

Nope, Arenanet are still part and parcel of NCsoft, just like Carbine

[Surelle]

I'm not sure that's that remarkable - you can get a lot done under alpha restrictions, up to flying a battlecruiser (one specific battlecruiser), but if you've been playing for years without any view to those restrictions (since they didn't exist) you're pretty unlikely not to be in a ship or fit that doesn't have _some_ non-alpha stuff. In City terms, the costume creator wouldn't be useless if I could only use red and yellow, but I wouldn't be surprised if none of my existing costumes fit that restriction.While Mittens was a complete drunken oaf on that occasion, and was very lucky not to get banned (especially given the bans handed out years later to the "Bonus Room" crowd), I don't think one can really suppose he was literally trying to get anyone to commit suicide; rather, he was making a joke in astonishingly poor taste.

The victim in question was originally mining in-game (using a ship with no attack capabilities and few defenses) and told the harasser he suffered from suicidal real-life depression, wasn't bothering anyone, and just wanted to be left alone.  Mittani afterward blatantly and repeatedly (on camera during the worldwide internet streaming of Eve's Fanfest) not only revealed the victim's real-life and in-game identity to the entire public, but also repeatedly encouraged the entire Eve player base to email and call him, and convince him to commit suicide for real.

He and CCP's jovial GMs only snapped out of it once the mainstream gaming press and horrified onlookers later began calling them out on it publicly.

Joking my foot!  Clearly you love the game, and good for you:  I used to love it too.  However, the contrast between something like 2009's pinnacle expansion Apocrypha, and this cesspool of human degradation CCP has sunk to in more recent years, is something I can't ignore.

[Surelle]

Funny thing.  That's exactly what bullies always say.  "It's just a joke!  Can't you take a joke?"

Haven't certain bullying parents recently had their children taken away from them over abusive videotaped Youtube stunts shielded with that same excuse, too? 

[thunderforce]

The victim in question was originally mining in-game (using a ship with no attack capabilities and few defenses) and told the harasser he suffered from suicidal real-life depression, wasn't bothering anyone, and just wanted to be left alone.  Mittani afterward blatantly and repeatedly (on camera during the worldwide internet streaming of Eve's Fanfest) not only revealed the victim's real-life and in-game identity to the entire public, but also repeatedly encouraged the entire Eve player base to email and call him, and convince him to commit suicide for real.

This simply isn't true, unless I'm very much mistaken (and I've just rewatched the video). No real-life identity mentioned (how would Mittens ever have had it?), not "repeatedly", no exhortation to call or email him (since Mittens never had his real-life contact details), not the "entire player base", since no-one supposes the entire player base watches random Fanfest presentations.

What happened is bad enough without making up extra details. All that's left is the idea that the intention was literally that the other party commit suicide and I really still don't see any reason to suppose that's the case - any more than I think the (utterly toxic) anti-gankers literally want gankers to get cancer, no matter how often they say it.