Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7294380 times)

Surelle

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27400 on: April 24, 2017, 02:30:12 PM »
Why does everyone feel that the appearance of Statesman in MxM is a sure sign of the deal being dead?  I though the "deal" was more a licensing deal rather than a direct purchase of the IP.  If that's the case, can't characters be licensed to multiple different companies?

I just feel that if the deal was truly-100%-No Hope "dead", someone would have leaked it.

You're assuming the group that was trying to lease it even knows what CoH Titan even is or cares.  Nate only introduced them to an NCSoft contact, and nothing more.  They're not going to trumpet the fact that they tried a deal that failed to gaming media outlets, either.  What good would it do, but make them feel embarrassed?  Not that many people even knew a deal was being attempted.  And that was in 2014.  It's been...years now.  I doubt any of it is on their minds anymore.

Power Gamer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27401 on: April 24, 2017, 03:23:29 PM »
I'm guessing that we don't really know which way the door is swinging on this because no light has been shed on this due to the NDA.  :-X

It could go a number of different ways, so the best/worst we can do is speculate.
People are letting off steam and for better or worse it demonstrates the passion
we have for CoX. I'd caution against dismissing the outcry as simply reactionary.

For my part, adding States to a game I have no interest in playing is not encouraging.
Yet I can see some positives to the move. But that road is so winding and has many branching avenues
that I will not try to examine it here.

Paragon Chat slakes my thirst for nostalgia, I can at least pick up badges, make quips and snappy comebacks
all day long. And that is a big chunk of what I found enjoyable about CoX. And yes, I would play that game
in a heartbeat, picking up at least two accounts since my wife will join me.
And I know others in my network who feel the same, they just don't want to be reminded of what was lost.

If CoX came back today, I am sure I could bring in a bunch of accounts in the first week. Now multiply that by
their networks, and by every other dedicated fan here. By the end of the anniversary of the reopen, the number
of subs would rival or surpass the halcyon days of this IP. IMHO.  ;)
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Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27402 on: April 24, 2017, 03:31:11 PM »
Well this is the company that tried to give Richard Garriott the business as the old saying goes....
True. At some point they need to be held accountable in the court of law.

Surelle

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27403 on: April 24, 2017, 03:59:37 PM »
True. At some point they need to be held accountable in the court of law.

Richard Garriott won about 30 million dollars in a lawsuit against them over Tabula Rasa's scammy shutdown (NCSoft forged Garriott's signatures on the closing paperwork while he was away).

MegaWatt

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27404 on: April 24, 2017, 05:33:12 PM »
Richard Garriott won about 30 million dollars in a lawsuit against them over Tabula Rasa's scammy shutdown (NCSoft forged Garriott's signatures on the closing paperwork while he was IN SPACE).

sorry i dont normally do that 'i fixed it for you' but.....its important to note WHERE he was at the time they did that......because it makes the situation all the more insane.
If we set it on fire it'll burn....but that'd leave evidence...I KNOW ! COMPLETE ATOMIZATION! WOOOO!

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27405 on: April 24, 2017, 05:47:01 PM »
sorry i dont normally do that 'i fixed it for you' but.....its important to note WHERE he was at the time they did that......because it makes the situation all the more insane.

I think thats what speaks volumes about NCSofts behavior and deserved rep as a "Game killer".  The fact they could do what they did while the guy was at space camp promoting the game certainly sheds a light on the kind of company they can be.  If it isn't some ultra popular WoW killer they want to be rid of it.  Even if the game is expecting a huge update(like CoH was) they still won't change there minds and look for a way to get what they want.  They have zero patience.

Only people with no patience take bad actions in haste at the worst of times to do so.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LateNights

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27406 on: April 24, 2017, 06:14:20 PM »
Only people with no patience take bad actions in haste at the worst of times to do so.

Maybe we'll get lucky & Kim Jong nukes them accidentally...

cmgangrel

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27407 on: April 24, 2017, 06:21:52 PM »
Richard Garriott won about 30 million dollars in a lawsuit against them over Tabula Rasa's scammy shutdown (NCSoft forged Garriott's signatures on the closing paperwork while he was away).

The court case was over if he had resigned or been pushed out of the company, and basically dictated how his stock options would have vested themselves.

Link to Garriot/NCsoft complaint
Judgement
Appeal Verdict

He never signed his resignation papers (which would have meant that he left willingly and wasn't forced out of the company), and actually *approved*  the "Letter to the players" (which is the one that NCsoft put his signature to), although his does admit that this was probably a bad idea in and of itself. The above links have a whole lot more information.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27408 on: April 24, 2017, 07:10:28 PM »
Okay, first things first, I didn't copy your entire response as I understood the first and last parts, but I didn't quite understand what you meant by this second part. Lemme see if I can make sense of it, what you're saying is that ultimately, superhero movies aren't actually drawing people to be interested in superheroes unless they're in movies right? So, like, for example, say, I've never played or seen CoH/CoV (but I've heard of it), the chances of me actually trying out CoH/CoV after watching twenty superhero movies would stay the same as the chances of me actually trying out CoH/CoV after not watching a single superhero movie. Is that pretty much what you were going for?

Not quite.  More something like this.  We assume if a million people watch Iron Man, some percentage of them will obviously be interested in playing a video game about Iron Man, or other superheroes.  So if Disney is getting thirty million people to watch movies with Iron Man, that's better for superhero video games because the same percentage of that number, even if the percentage is low, is still more people.  But that presumes the percentage stays the same.  What if the very reason Disney is so successful is because in a way difficult for us to articulate with certainty their movies are specifically drawing in people who aren't interested in superheroes at all, but just happen to like the Marvel movies in particular?

Lets really oversimplify just to make things easy to explain.  Suppose the entire success of the entire Marvel franchise is due to the fact that millions of people love Robert Downey Jr.  We wouldn't automatically assume that a massive influx of Robert Downey Jr. movies would translate into increased success of superhero games, right?  The two have nothing to do with each other.  Well, what if the collective set of things that are the keys to Disney's success with the Marvel movies doesn't include the fact that they are about superheroes?  What if they aren't superhero movies at all, but Marvel movies that just happen to be about superheroes?  Then once again, we would not expect that to translate into superhero gaming success.

What if the majority of people going to see Marvel movies aren't seeing it because they are about superheroes, but *in spite* of the fact they are about superheroes?  There are lots of people who do not like scifi/fantasy but love the Star Wars movies.  Some movies transcend the genre they are superficially within.  In that case, Disney might actually be creating an audience of millions of people who like the MCU itself, and dislike everything else as a matter of taste.  That could actually hurt a superhero game trying to launch now unless they can somehow hit that same sensibility.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27409 on: April 24, 2017, 07:50:19 PM »
What if the majority of people going to see Marvel movies aren't seeing it because they are about superheroes, but *in spite* of the fact they are about superheroes?  There are lots of people who do not like scifi/fantasy but love the Star Wars movies.  Some movies transcend the genre they are superficially within.  In that case, Disney might actually be creating an audience of millions of people who like the MCU itself, and dislike everything else as a matter of taste.  That could actually hurt a superhero game trying to launch now unless they can somehow hit that same sensibility.

On the whole star wars part, star wars is not quite science fiction, but more "Science fantasy", it's got all the same elements of a fantasy story just lasers and light sabres.  Even has "Melee beats guns!" and "Jason vs goliath!" in it.  A lot of people though don't like fantasy as it comprises often of unicorns, dragons and hobbits.  Some people enjoy generic action movies but hate say lord of thee rings, probably because those to are fantasy.  The matrix, even, can be seen as a more fantasy than a science fiction, because in science fiction the high-tech fancy stuff is actually very mundane to the characters.

Science fiction see everything is mundane, as a way of wowing the audience that "oh hey society moved on in this world we are looking into".  Teleporters to the characters are boring, so are shuttles, warp speed ect.  I mean heck the modern star-trek(well, modern star trek to me), westworld, has numerous science fiction elements inspite the "adventure" the main character goes on.  Both star trek and westworld render the fancy high tech very mundane in the characters perspectives.

If star trek say had anything like a death star, the "death star" would be very, very common place and people wouldn't react the same way to it in the story.  They'd be 'oh, another doomsday device the size of a small moon'.  Star wars had a death star to make it feel more adventurous and fantasy like.  Star trek's doomsday machine was more in response to the philosophical question of it's day with the presence of nuclear weapons and the "MAD strategy".  In the episode the doomsday machine had already killed both it's own creators and whoever it's creators were threatened by.  It isn't the actions of kirk which are a highlight in the episode, so much as the episode was focusing on WMD's, even the use of one(well, in practice) to stop a WMD.

Star wars is just not the same as other science fiction because, well, it never was science fiction, it was science fantasy.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27410 on: April 24, 2017, 09:06:36 PM »
Maybe we'll get lucky & Kim Jong nukes them accidentally...

First off, lol that's pretty funny.  It got a good chuckle out of me.

Second off, let's hope not......

Figured I would show my appreciation of a good joke before saying "But srs hopefully not"

sorry I don't normally do that 'i fixed it for you' but.....its important to note WHERE he was at the time they did that......because it makes the situation all the more insane.


It really does make it that much more insane.  I just wonder if they developed some crazy logic of him being in space made it less shady.  "Your honor this man wasn't even on EARTH when we did this.  You know who else isn't on earth?  Aliens!  ERGO Richard Garrot was an alien while in space!"

Besides the 30 million Richard Garrot got, he also has one hell of a story.  How many people can say "One time this huge publishing company  tried to forge my name to shut down a game while I was in space, so I sued them for 30 million dollars"

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27411 on: April 24, 2017, 09:33:25 PM »
On the whole star wars part, star wars is not quite science fiction, but more "Science fantasy", it's got all the same elements of a fantasy story just lasers and light sabres.  Even has "Melee beats guns!" and "Jason vs goliath!" in it.  A lot of people though don't like fantasy as it comprises often of unicorns, dragons and hobbits.  Some people enjoy generic action movies but hate say lord of thee rings, probably because those to are fantasy.  The matrix, even, can be seen as a more fantasy than a science fiction, because in science fiction the high-tech fancy stuff is actually very mundane to the characters.

Science fiction see everything is mundane, as a way of wowing the audience that "oh hey society moved on in this world we are looking into".  Teleporters to the characters are boring, so are shuttles, warp speed ect.  I mean heck the modern star-trek(well, modern star trek to me), westworld, has numerous science fiction elements inspite the "adventure" the main character goes on.  Both star trek and westworld render the fancy high tech very mundane in the characters perspectives.

If star trek say had anything like a death star, the "death star" would be very, very common place and people wouldn't react the same way to it in the story.  They'd be 'oh, another doomsday device the size of a small moon'.  Star wars had a death star to make it feel more adventurous and fantasy like.  Star trek's doomsday machine was more in response to the philosophical question of it's day with the presence of nuclear weapons and the "MAD strategy".  In the episode the doomsday machine had already killed both it's own creators and whoever it's creators were threatened by.  It isn't the actions of kirk which are a highlight in the episode, so much as the episode was focusing on WMD's, even the use of one(well, in practice) to stop a WMD.

Star wars is just not the same as other science fiction because, well, it never was science fiction, it was science fantasy.

I specifically referenced "scifi/fantasy" because of this general topic, but since you mention it: there aren't really any rock-solid definitions of science fiction and fantasy as they pertain to fiction, only historical norms and the obvious evocation the terms bring about.  But I think the centroid of each type of fiction is best explained not by the trappings of the work but rather by the way the trappings are leveraged.  Both science fiction and fantasy fiction rewrite the rules of the world.  So called "normal" fiction will fictionalize details of the world, but they are generally set within the "real" world.  If one day we build colonies on Mars, Martian colony stories will be "fiction" and not "science fiction."

The difference is in *why* a story rewrites the rules.  So-called science fiction tends to rewrite the rules to examine how the world fills in those new rules.  We rewrite the rules to say that warp drive exists, and now we see what the ramifications of that rule change are.  Fantasy stories, on the other hand, tend to avoid actually examining the rule changes themselves, and instead explore the world the new rules creates.  We rewrite the rules to say that hyperspace drives exist, and now we see what kind of stories we can tell about people who travel in hyperspace.  It doesn't matter how it works or why it works.

We often tend to describe this in more simplistic terms: science fiction is about the science, fantasy is not about the science.  One is about extrapolating the rules, and one is about exploring the world created with the new rules.  When we are talking about Star Trek and Star Wars, it is easy to see that one is about science and one is not.  But what about a story like the Time Traveler's Wife?  In that story, the mechanics of time travel are not explored at all.  There isn't really any science in the Time Traveler's Wife that I can recall.  However, it is normally considered a science fiction story, not a fantasy story.  Why?  In my own opinion, that is because the central premise of the story invokes a rules change: someone can time travel, and in a very specific proscribed way.  The story then focuses on the ramifications of this rule change.  We explore how the rule change affects the lives of the people in the world that it touches.  It focuses on how the main character's life is different because of this rule change.  We don't explore the world created by the rule change.  So even though the time travel mechanism might as well be magic, the story is still a science fiction one at heart.

We sometimes talk about science fiction in "hard" and "soft" terms and sometimes people assert that the "hard" science fiction is the stuff that is more "realistic."  But I don't think that is a proper description.  Stephen Baxter is often described as writing hard science fiction but his stuff is nowhere near being connected to the current state of understanding of science: it is highly extrapolative.  I believe that when people talk about hard scifi being "hard" they are really describing how *deeply* the rules are explored.  Hard science fiction explores its rules changes deeply, soft scifi explores them shallowly.  It is the depth of exploration that makes hard scifi (when well written) seem "more real."

By these definitions, The Avengers movie is basically fantasy.  It miracles into existence a lot of rules changes, but doesn't explore them.  It invokes them, and then uses the resultant world as a playground.  Even though Thor says what we call magic the Asgardians call science, that doesn't make the Thor movie a science fiction movie: it is a fantasy.  It invokes rule changes and then explores the world created by the new rules.  It doesn't explore the rules.

My definitions try to connect two things: the generally accepted ones, and two different motivations for writing "fantastical fiction."  The two biggest reasons for changing the rules of the world narratively, as I see it, are to a) allow the reader to escape the real world and b) to comment or satirize the real world.  A lot of the best historical examples of science fiction change the rules of the world specifically to compare and contrast with the real world.  We want the reader to see the fictional world and draw parallels with the real one.  Often, the commentary being done is very difficult to do when set in the real world, so science fiction becomes the metaphorical spoon full of sugar.  Fantasy works can do this also, but less often in my opinion.

Of course, a single work can have elements of both, because they can address multiple narrative imperatives.  Because much of the tools and scaffolding for both are similar, there is often a lot of blurring of the genres.  Star Trek, for example, is in my opinion a hybrid work.  Much of the time Star Trek is exploring the ramifications of the rules changes.  What do people do when there's no more war, poverty, or disease, is the central tenant of "classic" Star Trek.  Some episodes are also explorations of the rules change.  What happens when you literally cure everything (The Mark of Gideon)?  What are the limits of automation (The Ultimate Computer)?  But a lot of Star Trek is just an exploration of the world created by the rules change.  It is "science fantasy."

In my opinion, explaining how technology works is no different than explaining how magic works.  Explaining science doesn't make a work science fiction.  It is the why of the explanation that matters.  If the way the transporter works is that it creates a pattern from your physical self and then recreates that pattern precisely, then what are the ramifications if it accidentally does that twice?  What are the ramifications if it does that wrong?  What are the ramifications when it does it at all?  That's what makes fiction with science into science fiction in my opinion.

And I don't think it is coincidental that we have these two different narrative imperatives (explore the rules, explore the world created by the rules ignoring the rules) and two different kinds of metaphors used within those stories: science and technology, and magic.  If you want to explore  the rules, the rules have to "make sense" to the reader.  They have to hold together with at least a semblance of common sense.  That is basically what science and technology look like.  If you specifically want the reader to ignore the rules, the best way to do that is to not have any structure to the rules.  That is practically the very definition of magic: the world runs on rules we can't hope to make full sense of.

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27412 on: April 25, 2017, 12:31:35 AM »
First off, lol that's pretty funny.  It got a good chuckle out of me.

Second off, let's hope not......

Figured I would show my appreciation of a good joke before saying "But srs hopefully not"
 

It really does make it that much more insane.  I just wonder if they developed some crazy logic of him being in space made it less shady.  "Your honor this man wasn't even on EARTH when we did this.  You know who else isn't on earth?  Aliens!  ERGO Richard Garrot was an alien while in space!"

Besides the 30 million Richard Garrot got, he also has one hell of a story.  How many people can say "One time this huge publishing company  tried to forge my name to shut down a game while I was in space, so I sued them for 30 million dollars"
I cant help but think the server code might not survive a nuke from North Korea haha

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27413 on: April 25, 2017, 12:33:19 AM »
Richard Garriott won about 30 million dollars in a lawsuit against them over Tabula Rasa's scammy shutdown (NCSoft forged Garriott's signatures on the closing paperwork while he was away).
Man we need to forge some sigs

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27414 on: April 25, 2017, 12:47:50 AM »
I cant help but think the server code might not survive a nuke from North Korea haha

Should be ok so long as it's not within 1000 feet of the launch point.

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27415 on: April 25, 2017, 01:16:03 AM »
The court case was over if he had resigned or been pushed out of the company, and basically dictated how his stock options would have vested themselves.

Link to Garriot/NCsoft complaint
Judgement
Appeal Verdict

He never signed his resignation papers (which would have meant that he left willingly and wasn't forced out of the company), and actually *approved*  the "Letter to the players" (which is the one that NCsoft put his signature to), although his does admit that this was probably a bad idea in and of itself. The above links have a whole lot more information.

The data in those links truly show how slimy NCSoft is.
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

cmgangrel

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27416 on: April 25, 2017, 01:27:59 AM »
The data in those links truly show how slimy NCSoft is.

And so are many companies.... some of them in your own back yard (Mylan for example)

Mistress Urd

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27417 on: April 26, 2017, 05:36:42 AM »
Why does everyone feel that the appearance of Statesman in MxM is a sure sign of the deal being dead?  I though the "deal" was more a licensing deal rather than a direct purchase of the IP.  If that's the case, can't characters be licensed to multiple different companies?

I just feel that if the deal was truly-100%-No Hope "dead", someone would have leaked it.

Its not 100% but how long are we willing to wait? 10 years? 25 years?

Its more likely someone will release a game in the spirit of CoH at the rate things are going.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27418 on: April 26, 2017, 09:24:48 AM »
You still have some hope left in you...? hmph Well...I hope you're right at some point....
You kidding? I've always had hope that CoH/CoV would eventually come back at some point, besides, the way I see it, I've got two options, 1. I hope we get our game back at some point, or 2. I try to move on from CoH/CoV and have no hope. I figure that Option 1 is better as a whole where's Option 2 would probably end with me being depressed for some time.

Oh and yeah, I hope I'm right at some point as well, cause then we'd all get what we want, which is our game back :)

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27419 on: April 26, 2017, 10:44:18 PM »
The data in those links truly show how slimy NCSoft is.
Not very single North Korean missile blows up on the launch pad. Well, the majority of the homegrown larger missiles do, but they could stick a nuke on one of the smaller imports if they're only attacking South Korea, which would also be remarkably stupid and suicidal for several reasons. North Korea is run by jackholes, but so far they're jackholes who are aware of the limits and dangers of their actions and have been careful to keep them within the realm where it allows them to maintain power. Of course that's relied on other countries not taking the NK rhetoric completely seriously and the other countries being run by people not foolish and impulsive enough to respond in kind, so things may get interesting now.
So far so good. Onward and upward!