New efforts!

[LaughingAlex]

At least you still have hope Mageman, thats really what counts the most.

Some people gave up hope and not only gave up but try sometimes to discourage talks and whatnot.  They aren't to me as annoying as some who wanted and possibly still want talks to fail(for very selfish reasons), but it's still bothersome to me.  Honestly what'll probably end up happening is people will get CoX back when they least expect it.

I personally suspect THEM already have the rights to the game but have to wait until a certain time before they officially release it.  Such as the example you gave of THeM being partly involved with MWM releasing City of Titans(which you should check out, thats the new name of "The Phoenix project: and has been for a few years now, ever since the kickstarter was a success).

What we need, is to not give up.

[Zombie Hustler]

The real question raised by Schrodinger's Cat- the one no one ever seems to be asking is-

If you let the cat out of the box, does it form an unnatural attachment to its former captor?  ???

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Ahh yes the age old question.  Would Schrodinger's Cat have Stockholm Syndrome after undergoing Pavlovian conditioning that effected its Life and Death drives seeing how for the longest time it was seemingly both and neither.

I guess some questions will just never be answered.........also this

Heisenberg and Schrödinger get pulled over for speeding.
The cop asks Heisenberg "Do you know how fast you were going?"

Heisenberg replies, "No, but we know exactly where we are!"
The officer looks at him confused and says "you were going 108 miles per hour!"

Heisenberg throws his arms up and cries, "Great! Now we're lost!"

The officer looks over the car and asks Schrödinger if the two men have anything in the trunk.
"A cat," Schrödinger replies.
The cop opens the trunk and yells "Hey! This cat is dead."

Schrödinger angrily replies, "Well he is now."

[MM3squints]

The real question raised by Schrodinger's Cat- the one no one ever seems to be asking is-

If you let the cat out of the box, does it form an unnatural attachment to its former captor?  ???

Inquiring minds want to know.

https://i.imgur.com/NVTmram.gif

This show its tells me no in the sense a 4th dimension being will stabilize you (4th dimension being is the captor) but will arrest you for having a time altering crystal, where in that point you will once again destabilize yourself and your grand kids and proceed to beat up the 4th dimension being.

[Ohioknight]

That's what happens when you try to think about quantum superposition in the context of objects composed of trillions of trillions of trillions of quantum particles.  You don't have a clear demarcation of a couple of clear states.  You have an almost unlimited "blur" of different states smeared out across an enormously complex probability wave.  And that happens even if it is just a cat in a box, period.  Until you can properly conceptualize the notion of the almost infinite superpositions of all possible quantum states of just a plain old cat, any ideas you have about how to resolve Schrödinger's paradox are putting the cart before the horse.

Isn't this what that fellow Feynman got a Nobel prize for?  Sum over histories?  I always understood it as "OUR" reality is what you get when you sum up all those other realities -- they aren't in different dimensions, they're all in the same "dimension"... the parallel worlds are all there (or here I should say) each constructively and destructively amplifying all the others and we're the wave pattern that results.

[Arcana]

Isn't this what that fellow Feynman got a Nobel prize for?  Sum over histories?  I always understood it as "OUR" reality is what you get when you sum up all those other realities -- they aren't in different dimensions, they're all in the same "dimension"... the parallel worlds are all there (or here I should say) each constructively and destructively amplifying all the others and we're the wave pattern that results.

Err, not exactly.  Richard Feynman won the Nobel Prize in physics with two other physicists (Schwinger and Tomonaga) for work on QED, aka quantum electrodynamics.  So-called Feynman diagrams were a part of that work but not the totality of that work.

Feynman diagrams didn't invent the concept of "sum over histories" per se.  Quantum mechanics deals in probabilities, and makes predictions about the probability of an event occurring under a given set of circumstances.  Just like any other probability calculation, those calculations can be broken down into pieces and summed up.  Consider calculating the odds of rolling a seven on a pair of (six sided) dice.  The way we calculate that is by figuring out every possible way that can happen and calculating the probability of that event happening, and then summing (adding) up.  There are six ways to roll seven: one and six, two and five, three and four, four and three, five and two, and six and one.  Each one of those dice rolls has a one out of thirty six chance of happening.  So the odds of rolling seven are six in thirty six or one in six.  We are "summing over possible histories."

But consider this.  Suppose I asked what was the probability that you would roll a grand total of an even number in an entire Las Vegas trip?.  Okay, that's a complicated problem to solve using that method, because there are an enormous number of possibilities.  Not only are there thirty six possible options for just the very first dice roll, there's the possibility that you roll once, crap out, and go home, the possibility that you roll the dice for ten minutes and then quit, the possibility that you roll the dice for eight hours and break the bank, etc.  If you actually tried to list out all possible Las Vegas trips a human being could complete you'd go crazy.

And that's just for the simple situation of a dice roll.  There's only thirty six possible ways the dice can fall.  Or is there?  What about the odds the dice fly off the table?  What about the odds the dice land cocked and don't fall flat (it happens).  What about the case where the dice roller pockets the dice and runs out of the casino?  We don't normally count those possibilities as relevant, but when it comes to particle physics all sorts of weird things can happen and it can be difficult to know whether they are important possibilities or inconsequential possibilities.  It can be very complex just to write out the equations for calculating how one specific thing happens.

So you have very long, very complex equations that need to be solved just to calculate one single possible occurrence, and then hundreds, thousands, or even millions of possible occurrences.  And then you get the infinities.  It turns out that many of the equations you attempt to solve in quantum mechanics generate infinite or nonsensical results.  That's because deep within the equations the calculations are trying to say that it is impossible to determine reasonable probabilities for isolated "pieces" of a complex history.  Quantum mechanics considers those "pieces of history" nonsensical in isolation.  But if the only way to solve these complex problems is by divide and conquer, and divide and conquer generate nonsensical results outside the whole, and the equations themselves are so long and complicated that they can individually take up dozens of sheets of paper, how does any human being do this work?

That was the problem physicists were facing in the 1940s.  How do you deal with this giant calculation mess?  Physicists were making errors and screwing up calculations all the time.  Keep in mind this was pre-Mathematica.  No Wolfram Alpha to check anyone's work.  No computers period.  Feynman decided to invent his own language for dealing with quantum mechanical calculations involving the simple case of the electron (quantum electrodynamics basically deals with the "simplified" case of quantum behavior of the electron and its relatives).  Feynman diagrams were his way to reduce the complex equations of QED into simple pictures.  The pictures themselves could be used to discuss and organize the gigantic calculations they represented, and do so in a visual way that represented what that calculation was trying to do.  It was like the QED equivalent of going from Roman numerals to Arabic numerals for calculations.

Freeman Dyson became a strong proponent of Feynman's work and took it further, demonstrating a precise way to convert any QED equation into a unique Feynman diagram and vice versa, and also demonstrated how to use them to simplify normalization.  Normalization was a way to "nullify" the infinities and other anomalies in quantum mechanics.

Here's a puzzle.  Two Apples plus three bananas equals ten oranges.  Four Pears minus three bananas equals six oranges.  How many oranges are one apple and two pears worth?  Answer: eight.  If Two apples plus three bananas equals ten oranges and four pears minus three bananas equals six oranges, then two apples plus three bananas plus four pears minus three bananas equals sixteen oranges.  The bananas cancel out, and you have two apples plus four pears equals sixteen oranges. So one apple plus two pears equals eight oranges.  Notice we actually have no way to know what bananas are worth.  They could be worth one orange, or five, or 3.14 oranges, or negative three oranges, or even an infinite number of oranges.  That's basically an analog to what normalization does in QED.  You have terms that "blow up" in isolation, but when you combine the equations in the right way those terms go away, and what's left is something that is much simpler to deal with.  By combining QED terms we analogously take nonsensical "pieces" of reality and combine them into coherent subsets of reality that quantum mechanics can talk about reasonably.

Feynman diagrams converted hundreds of pages of equations into a small number of doodles that people could handle and talk about much easier without making mistakes.  Normalization simplified the calculations those diagrams represented so that they generated reasonable numbers in total whereas they generated nonsensical results in isolation.  The combination of the two is basically modern quantum electrodynamics.


Note: I'm glossing over a lot, because fundamentally speaking I only understand Feynman diagrams in a very colloquial sense.  I'm not a quantum electrodynamics professor.  The remarkable thing about Feynman diagrams is that somebody like me can understand what the diagrams are trying to say on some level even if the underlying math is basically shredder confetti.  That's the power they give to people who actually do this work.

[Zombie Hustler]

Note: I'm glossing over a lot...

wut?  :o

[Kelltick]

Note: I'm glossing over a lot

wut?  :o

lol, I'm right there with ya. I, at one point in my life, thought I understood physics, and kind of still do. That is, non-quantum physics. I still to this day, even after wiping the gloss off my eyes that tends to accumulate once quantum physics works its way into the discussion, have a very hard time coming to grips with how extremely different the world of the very large and the very small seem to have completely different behaviors, but yet you couldn't have the one without the other. While admittedly only possessing a very rudimentary understanding of the one, and a vague idea of the other, I just can't seem to wrap my mind around the two separate fields and reconcile what they're saying on the whole.

But that's not to say, at all, that I don't enjoy getting my mind turned inside out and backwards trying to follow the conversation presented. Quite the contrary! Just makes me wish I knew more about the subject matter so I could do more than the ol' "nod and smile"!  :P

[Zombie Hustler]

Bottom line: give the NPCs a goal, and let the players figure out how to prevent that goal from happening without simply killing everything - or let them kill everything if that's how they want to play it.  This way, you don't "make" alternate ways to win, you let the players make alternate ways to win.

Snipped a lot of other really interesting insights from Arcana's OP, which should be read (really, go back and read it).

I was thinking about this earlier today- just a minute ago, in fact- and it reminded me of an interview with Positron where he talked about wanting to design (or re-design; I think it came after issue 7) the Villainous portion of the game so that Villain players would be essentially planning missions and becoming the antagonists to Heroic players, who would then respond to those plans and try to thwart them. Which is the fundamental nature of the superheroic genre, and is basically the notion that Arcana envisions here.

I remember thinking how cool that would have been, but not having any idea how they would have done it. Perhaps they could have used some kind of variant of the Architect system but more limited in choices, such that Villains could create "heist" scenarios which would then create attached maps, and then Heroes would receive Newspaper missions that would allow them to enter and try to stop the villain? Kind of a mix of Mayhem Mission/PvP and Architect, then.

Villains could gain rewards that would open up further scenarios they could build or maps, obstacles to populate it with (again, not unlike Architect), and Heros would gain something similar. Maybe they could have co-opted the Base Raid system into it as well.

Actually, I bet something like that could have been made to work both ways, with the Heroes designing Protection scenarios or something that the Villains would attempt to disrupt.

That could have been cool.  :'(

[Paragon Avenger]

Paragon Avenger,  you should add to your tag line "---survivors will be shot again"  Otherwise, cool tagline.

Thanks, I didn't see this until now.  This new efforts thread is way too busy.

[Sinistar]

At least you still have hope Mageman, thats really what counts the most.

Some people gave up hope and not only gave up but try sometimes to discourage talks and whatnot.  They aren't to me as annoying as some who wanted and possibly still want talks to fail(for very selfish reasons), but it's still bothersome to me.  Honestly what'll probably end up happening is people will get CoX back when they least expect it.

I personally suspect THEM already have the rights to the game but have to wait until a certain time before they officially release it.  Such as the example you gave of THeM being partly involved with MWM releasing City of Titans(which you should check out, thats the new name of "The Phoenix project: and has been for a few years now, ever since the kickstarter was a success).

What we need, is to not give up.

It is also possible they have the rights and the game, but are in the process of rebuilding missing things like the Auction House, AE and Bases, and the Paragon Store......

To be honest, if the game comes back and super group bases aren't in it, I really wouldn't complain.

When they made it so that all trains linked to all blue zones, added dimensional portals right by the train station to get to Praetoria and made sure that on red side the boats all linked to all zones, bases became kind of pointless to have teleporter units in them.

Then there is the fact that the base editor....wasn't as good as it could have been but to update it would require a rebuild of the system as I recall.

Base raids as I recall were shut down due to bugs also

Basically bases became a storage room for salvage and IO's and to have assorted rooms decorated in assorted fashion, etc.  Basically a time killer if one had nothing else planned to do in the game at the time.

So bases could be gone if the game came back and I wouldn't complain.

If the AE were not available right away, well that's fine too. Plenty of missions to run and farm without the AE. 

The Auction House......well since we would all likely be starting at level 1 since accounts would be gone, would we NEED the auction house right away?   As I recall one had to be L15 to get the invention badge to craft things and gain salvage, and one can survive on SO's for awhile. 

So yes it is possible they have the game purchased from NCSOFT but are in the process of rebuilding the game where it needs to be before they say anything. If they let it slip now that they have the game but are rebuilding parts of it, WHAT will be the primary question they are asked? 

Simple:

WHEN IS THE RELAUNCH DATE? 


or as an alternate


ARE WE THERE, YET?????

They likely would not want to be deluged with the same question ad nauseum while they are rebuilding things.

If I am right, of course.  :)

[Brigadine]

It is also possible they have the rights and the game, but are in the process of rebuilding missing things like the Auction House, AE and Bases, and the Paragon Store......

To be honest, if the game comes back and super group bases aren't in it, I really wouldn't complain.

When they made it so that all trains linked to all blue zones, added dimensional portals right by the train station to get to Praetoria and made sure that on red side the boats all linked to all zones, bases became kind of pointless to have teleporter units in them.

Then there is the fact that the base editor....wasn't as good as it could have been but to update it would require a rebuild of the system as I recall.

Base raids as I recall were shut down due to bugs also

Basically bases became a storage room for salvage and IO's and to have assorted rooms decorated in assorted fashion, etc.  Basically a time killer if one had nothing else planned to do in the game at the time.

So bases could be gone if the game came back and I wouldn't complain.

If the AE were not available right away, well that's fine too. Plenty of missions to run and farm without the AE. 

The Auction House......well since we would all likely be starting at level 1 since accounts would be gone, would we NEED the auction house right away?   As I recall one had to be L15 to get the invention badge to craft things and gain salvage, and one can survive on SO's for awhile. 

So yes it is possible they have the game purchased from NCSOFT but are in the process of rebuilding the game where it needs to be before they say anything. If they let it slip now that they have the game but are rebuilding parts of it, WHAT will be the primary question they are asked? 

Simple:

WHEN IS THE RELAUNCH DATE? 


or as an alternate


ARE WE THERE, YET?????

They likely would not want to be deluged with the same question ad nauseum while they are rebuilding things.

If I am right, of course.  :)

This would mean it isn't a static binary server image. I would miss the teleporters in bases.

[blacksly]

It seems to me quite unlikely that they would have finished negotiations and are silent while getting things together. If there were a done deal, I think it's very likely that they would have announced it.
1: There have been statements to the effect that they are gamers like us who want CoH back, so they surely know how much the remaining CoH community is looking forward to news. Waiting just to iron out bugs seems unnecessary.
2: The more you wait, the more potential returning players get discouraged and go try something else... and you might be unlucky enough that the player LIKES the new thing, and will not return. So you're bleeding potential returnees at a slow rate every week. Why not put a snag in their quest for the next game to latch onto, by announcing that a deal is done?

What would be the potential benefit from waiting to make an announcement, if the deal were done and just technical details were holding up the start?

[Teikiatsu]

Spent the day on the road with my wife discussing our old characters and how we would translate them into RPGs and modified for short stories.

We miss this game so much :(

I still hold out hope that one day I'll be able to sidekick my son in Paragon :)

[Brigadine]

It seems to me quite unlikely that they would have finished negotiations and are silent while getting things together. If there were a done deal, I think it's very likely that they would have announced it.
1: There have been statements to the effect that they are gamers like us who want CoH back, so they surely know how much the remaining CoH community is looking forward to news. Waiting just to iron out bugs seems unnecessary.
2: The more you wait, the more potential returning players get discouraged and go try something else... and you might be unlucky enough that the player LIKES the new thing, and will not return. So you're bleeding potential returnees at a slow rate every week. Why not put a snag in their quest for the next game to latch onto, by announcing that a deal is done?

What would be the potential benefit from waiting to make an announcement, if the deal were done and just technical details were holding up the start?

Coming soon (tm)   


....Again....

[Zombie Hustler]

The more I think about the idea I mentioned upthread the more I like it. Basically it would be an instanced version of PvP, but with multiple ways of "winning" other than just flat out combat. The scenario designer, be it a hero or villain, would select a map, and then an objective such "loot bank" or something. Then, the two groups would enter the instance. Essentially the objective would probably be a glowie, either the villains would have to click it and then escape, or the heroes would have to declick it or otherwise prevent the villains' escape. There might even have been some customizability allowed in terms of naming and such (getting to name the glowie "The Heart of Rikti" etc.).

I imagine something like that could have been possible to produce with the tools already in the game, and might have been a cool way to revitalize PvP that some people really wanted, as well as providing more to the whole hero/villain dynamic than was in the game at the time.

[Mageman]

I remember playing a game called Asheron's Call. There, you could "flag" your character for PvP (by doing a quest), so you were always in PvP mode (meaning that you could attack and be attacked by anyone who is also flagged as PvP). If I recall correctly, you had to do the same quest to un-flag your character from PvP. They even went as far as creating a PvP server where you were flagged as PvP at level 1 and couldn't un-flag yourself. It actually kinda sucked for a newbie level 1 - enter the game and get killed by a level 100+ character as you tried to figure out how to play. Needless to say, I stayed away from that PvP server as I enjoyed PvE and didn't want to worry about getting attacked by someone much higher level as I'm out trying to do a quest.

Personally, I don't see the need for PvP. However, I liked the way CoX implemented it. You had specific zones where you were flagged and could only be attacked by characters from the other faction (Heroes and Villains were the two factions - like WoW where the two factions are Alliance and Hoard). If you didn't want to PvP, then you didn't go to those zones. I still don't understand why they put in PvP badges that you needed for base equipment. As a PvE player, I wouldn't get those badges.

[Mageman]

Hey - Paragon Avenger:

When are you going to avenge us (those who wish to return to Paragon City)? I think you're a little slow on this!

[Paragon Avenger]

Hey - Paragon Avenger:
When are you going to avenge us (those who wish to return to Paragon City)? I think you're a little slow on this!

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7428/27521908076_21540ebe43_o.png

[umber]

Re: PvP
I'm of the mindset that City of Heroes and PvP suffered irreconcilable differences, they were never going to get along and had reached a point of the most amicable resolution being to draw a line down the middle of the house and try to stay out of each other's way. 


Re: NCSoft
My personal suspicion is that NCSoft attached a prereq to the CoH IP sale that the buyer must demonstrate some certain X aptitude with game creation/management, that prereq being some target goal in the CoT project itself.  Maybe a public beta or at least a costume creator to show off.  That the delays in CoT have caused the downstream delay in CoH revival info.  Just my guess.